• The Anime and Manga staff has posted a PSA regarding Go and how we'll handle future cases involving him from now onwards.

    We strongly recommend checking out this thread.

    Thank you in advance.

Preview JN032: Celebi: A Timeless Promise

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I also think they should handle Gou better, I want there to be more to his goal of catching every Pokémon, because, while I think they have been doing well for Gou as a character, his goal has been extremely lacking. But, right now, I'm just happy we are getting an episode about Gou's past and it's not yet another one where he gets Pokémon, I have wanted an episode like this, where we get some answers, for a while.
Given all that they speak of Go as having basically been introverted as a child and lacking in social skills, they could have easily added more depth to Go’s goal in that he wanted to capture lots of Pokémon not as some arbitrary measuring stick pertaining to Mew but due to wanting to have a lot of friends. It would be good if the writers could make some course correction in balance as to not have Go come across as something of a writer’s pet especially when you consider that, while this is the first “official” time that they’ve done a duel protagonist concept, it’s not really the first time the series has done it and they did it better prior.
 
Into the Nether portal...
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It's a sad reality when passionate fans can write better premises/plot points than people actually paid to do the job...

Tells you which side cares more about the series.

Actually, it's the same with every media or entertainment I guess, just look at what's happening to Assassin's Creed.
 
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It's sad to see that Goh threads have become what they are. I would like to address some points:

- It is completely fine to cricitize Goh with well-constructed arguments (we could really do without the low effort memes/jokes, but we're not going to act on those)

- It is not okay to label everyone who dislikes Goh as "toxic". However, it is also not okay to derail this thread or any other thread with pointless discussion about labeling people as toxic. If you have a problem with a post, you report it. You do not bicker about the post endlessly in a thread that is not meant for this. Let the staff handle it. Do you really think the average Pokémon fan comes to this site wanting to observe a bunch of people debating about what is considered toxic and what isn't? I don't think so.

- Despite it being okay to criticize Goh, we've seen the debate around him become much harsher. We've noticed a post where someone jokingly suggested Goh should commit suicide (which is all kinds of awful for obvious reasons), we've seen another post where Goh was labeled an antagonist. We've already had the whole "Goh is a psychopath" thing, and we don't want a repeat of that. Stay civil, it isn't hard. I've said it before: we're discussing an animated character from a show directed mostly at children here, not politics. That doesn't mean that you can't have strong debates about this character, but it also doesn't give you the right to behave poorly.

Carry on please.
The problem with what that user said is that instead of being constructive, they resorted to calling us toxic. Someone had to call them out for it. Might as well be me. I also like how they haven't responded to the criticism. That tells me that user came in here with the intention of starting drama.
 
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It's a sad reality when passionate fans can write better premises/plot points than people actually paid to do the job...

Tells you which side cares more about the series.

Actually, it's the same with every media or entertainment I guess, just look at what's happening to Assassin's Creed.
I don't think that's a fair towards the writers. Fans don't have to worry about deadlines, executive mandates, or really any of the work that comes with making a weekly animated series. That isn't to say that the writers are perfect or their decisions shouldn't be questioned. Each series has its own fair share of problems too. I just think the notion that fans can do a better job than professional writers or that they care about the series more than the people who are paid to work on it comes off way too disingenuous to me.
 
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The problem with what that user said is that instead of being constructive, they resorted to calling us toxic. Someone had to call them out for it. Might as well be me. I also like how they haven't responded to the criticism. That tells me that user came in here with the intention of starting drama.
Read again what I said. If you have a problem with a post, you report it. By calling them out you are only dragging the thread off-topic and creating even more drama. That is not what this thread is meant for or what people visiting this forum come here for. Let the staff handle it.
 
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While I agree that it's not fair to people who actually put in effort and are under pressure, the rest that don't fall under your category are pretty much subject to what I said earlier. I'm pretty sure that JN030's entire premise was intentional and not one driven by pressure given how it was written which points out to it being writer negligence or incompetence.

And I also brought up the point that this happens in every fandom, just look at what happened with the recent Assassin's Creed games or even Game of Thrones.
I think that you're assuming too much about the writers here. Regardless about how you feel about this series, writing for a weekly animated series, or really any kind of series, takes time, effort and there is pressure from deadlines. Even if you don't like the idea behind the episode or how it actually turns out once you watch it, it still took time and effort to make it happen. Like I said, that doesn't mean that each episode is a flawless masterpiece that shouldn't be questioned or anything like that, but saying that no effort was put into it or that the writers don't care about what they're doing compared to fans' suggestions just doesn't seem fair to me. There are plenty of episodes I don't care for, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the writers don't care at all or didn't put any effort into making them. It just means that I didn't like them or thought that there were too many flaws to make said episodes enjoyable.

I'm aware that you brought up other examples, although I'm not familiar with either of those franchises, but my main point was that it wasn't fair to put fans outlines of ideas on a high pedestal, say that they're doing a better job than the people in charge of the franchise, or in this case writing the anime, and that fans care more about the franchise than the people who are paid to work in it. I've watched and read a lot of fan ideas for other series that sounded better or at least more appealing than what actually in happened in said series. That doesn't necessarily mean that they would be better though. It's easy for us to laid out what we think works and what doesn't work for a show because we're just doing this in our free time. We aren't trying to get these ideas out for a TV series and done within a specific time frame. We're just talking about a show instead of actually working on it, so there are more challenges and pressures involved to make that work than what fans have to do in order to layout ideas for what they'd want to see after the episode has already been made. That's why it came off as disingenuous to me. It just seemed rude to assume the writers don't care about the anime or at least that fans care about it more than they do.
 
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I don't think that people should be this angry about Goh.
He’s a pretty polarizing character with the way that he’s been handled to date, more so than any previous companion. How people feel about him is just a reflection of that.
 
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He’s a pretty polarizing character with the way that he’s been handled to date, more so than any previous companion. How people feel about him is just a reflection of that.
He's not really a companion. He's a co-protagonist.
 
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@Hidden Mew
Well, maybe I am assuming to much about the writers, or maybe they genuinely fail to/can't connect and utilize the characters better. Bear with me here, I'd like you to read what @Kurolegacy posted here.

He utilized the plotlines that the writers of the show literally established themselves within the anime and repurposed them slightly to actually make sense with respect to Goh's character. He didn't write some fanfiction material of what his own fantasy of the character or create some entirely different "fan idea" that I'm putting on a high pedestal, he just utilized existing material in a far better manner that would serve to contribute to the character's development and make us empathize or understand him better. The writers of the show should be the ones who need to connect the most with the characters they're writing and keep them coherent. But that is something they've failed to do and that issue has even extended to their writing of Ash at times (though this is more of a case with some of the newer writers). While they may have put effort into doing what they do, the question is if that effort is genuine or if they just did so to fulfil some checklist or quota without a shred of thought for consistency and quality.

To give an example of how this scenario comes off as, it's like someone deciding to work as a University Professor but they only do it for the good salary and aren't passionate about teaching. To them, all they need to do is complete the syllabus by copying notes from books regardless of whether their students managed to learn from their teaching methods or not, and then proceed to collect their payday.
First of all, I did read Kurolegacy's post before responding to yours. I should also emphasize that I don't think Kurolegacy's idea was bad in the slightest. I think that doing something like that could have helped in giving Goh a more clear personal conflict, especially when that line from episode three does stick out a bit like a sore thumb. Admittedly, I'm not sure if that would have helped with the fan reception towards Goh here for a number of reasons, but it might have done something good in the long run. The problem I had was taking this suggestion and then using it to effectively insult the writers involved by saying that they don't have as much care/passion for the series as fans do. It's one thing to judge the quality of the writing. I think that's fair. At most, I'd say it could be jumping the gun with Goh's storyline since the series hasn't been out for a full year yet, we don't know where they're going with Goh and for all we know, this episode could be a major turning point in his story, but I think that the complaints of how Goh does not come off as an engaging and interesting character for some people or that they haven't used the whole not having a lot of friends issue effectively are understandable points.

Taking your opinions towards Goh/the anime, which are subjective by nature, and then using it to assume that the writers don't care, that their effort isn't genuine and that they're just doing this all for a paycheck is going just too far. Admittedly, I've sadly seen people treat the writers worse than that over the years, but it still seems needlessly harsh to judge these people like that, which is still the basic problem I have with the whole "fans know better than people who actually work within this specific industry" kind of logic that I've seen going around for quite some time.
 
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I'm okay with Goh being treated like this because he is not a companion.
Companions were main characters as well and were handled in a way that was comparatively better than Go has been. In addition, they were much better received even at this early point in their respective series compared to Go who has been nothing short of polarizing. It kinda says something when you handle characters better who aren’t officially the co-protagonist, writing them in a way that can be viewed as such than the one you create to fill that role.
 
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He's not really a companion. He's a co-protagonist.
I think that's a case of splitting hairs. Dawn was also a co-protagonist, but she was still considered a companion character too. Being a co-protagonist means that Goh gets more focus than say a character like Brock or Cilan typically would, but I don't think that means that he isn't a companion.

Companions were main characters as well and were handled in a way that was comparatively better than Go has been. In addition, they were much better received even at this early point in their respective series compared to Go who has been nothing short of polarizing. It kinda says something when you handle characters better who aren’t officially the co-protagonist, writing them in a way that can be viewed as such than the one you create to fill that role.
To be fair, I don't think that's entirely true or at least accurate. I remember May getting a lot of hate right when AG started because she replaced Misty. Admittedly, that might have been more common at Serebii more so than it was here, but it took awhile for May to become more popular within her own right. Iris definitely got her fair share of hate within the first thirty episodes of BW. It wasn't as bad or as common as it was during the later portion of the series, but it was definitely taking shape within those early episodes, particularly with how Axew couldn't use Dragon Rage and especially with her goal changing from evolving Axew to becoming a Dragon Master. Goh is a kind of character where people either like or hate him. I honestly do think it's rather sad how he gets so much hate, but I don't think it's entirely fair to say that other companions were better received within the first thirty episodes of their respective series.
 
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There are a lot of series where fan content is often better than the real produce *cough**cough Cursed Child**cough*.
However we know that this particular anime also has an element of executive meddling. There must be some kind of deviation there since Go's catching sprees are not something that'd be encouraged in any other series, so the writers have their hands tied somewhat in my opinion.

They can do a lot better (like not butchering Ash's character), but I don’t think that calling out the writers to such a degree is advisable. We don’t know how an individual writer thinks or how much effect they have on an episode. For all we know some of the writers themselves aren’t satisfied with the product they put out but are pressured. Fans coming out with new ideas which are often better than the source material happens with every series, but we don’t know exactly how much "fault" they writers are in and certainly not enough to question their passion.

For all we know the writer who we think butchered Ash's character believes that they put a new twist on Ash's character and used him as a way to deliver a lesson to children. In their mind they’re passionate about the product they put out but as the longtime fans we are, we see the inconsistencies with Ash's usual character. The best way is to simply put forward constructive criticism, and move to the next episode in my opinion.
 
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While it's true that not having Ash in this episode could help develop Goh's character.
What could have been if Ash traveled too..... Goh being sullen about returning to that place; and, possibly, meeting Tokio again....
Both having some feelings regarding that day:
*Goh thinks that Tokio betrayed him and never intended to come, feeling resentment. Acts cutting and cold.
*Tokio wanted to meet up with him but something happened, still carries the guilt. Wants to make amends.
While Ash could mediate and help them to solve the issue..... I'd prefer them doing that on their own.

This episode could have made a contrast between Tokio and Ash, the two people whom affected Goh the most....
The one who, unintentionally, soured Goh's outlook on friendship and close himself off even more....
The other who is making him come out of his shell, if not slowly breaking it out.....
Some potential interactions and dynamics lost there, along with some personal growth.

I am open to see how this episode goes, the final product may even be better than what we speculated with only the sinopsis.
 
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It's a sad reality when passionate fans can write better premises/plot points than people actually paid to do the job...

Tells you which side cares more about the series.

Actually, it's the same with every media or entertainment I guess, just look at what's happening to Assassin's Creed.
In the defense of the staff, most fanfic writers don’t need to deal with things like budget, executives breathing down your neck, marketing, executives breathing down your neck, test audiences, executives breathing down your neck, massive amounts of staff coordination, and of course idiots breathing down your neck.
 
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Looks like my original idea that Goh would be on a family trip to justify not having Ash there is correct.

I also think that Celebi has nothing to do with it. When Goh says goodbye to Tokio as a kid in the preview, he becomes sad the second Goh turns around, and the “Tokio, you jerk!” line wouldn’t make sense if Tokio was transported through time as the reason he ditched Goh because it wouldn’t be Tokio’s fault.
 
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I also think that Celebi has nothing to do with it. When Goh says goodbye to Tokio as a kid in the preview, he becomes sad the second Goh turns around, and the “Tokio, you jerk!” line wouldn’t make sense if Tokio was transported through time as the reason he ditched Goh because it wouldn’t be Tokio’s fault.
That's just the preview. The summary strongly hints that Tokio was sent through time to the present day and that's why he missed the meeting with Goh.
 
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