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Review JN077: Super Electromagnetic Hyper Class Battle!

Beatsy Ray

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I don't have a problem with Electivire losing to 10M Volt Thunderbolt. It would have been annoying if they pretended Motor Drive didn't exist, but that's not what happened. Volkner specifically ordered Electivire to absorb the attack with Motor Drive, which it did, but then fainted when it couldn't contain all the energy. It's perfectly believable that there is a cap to the amount of electricity that can be absorbed before it actively harms the Pokemon, and there's even a precedent of Pikachu (and Pachirisu) getting physically ill from doing just that. It breaks game rules, but I'll buy it in the anime.
 

Twilight-Kun

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I see what you mean. Probably I confused the Japanese translation. Still, I see another problem then: Why use Z-Rings while you're in Alola in the first place if that region "automatically" emits that radiation anyways? In my eyes Z-Rings would only make sense if you wanted to take that energy from Necrozma with you to other places.
Probably to better direct and control the power. We've never seen a pokemon pull off a Z-Move by itself, have we?
 

KrspaceT

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I don't have a problem with Electivire losing to 10M Volt Thunderbolt. It would have been annoying if they pretended Motor Drive didn't exist, but that's not what happened. Volkner specifically ordered Electivire to absorb the attack with Motor Drive, which it did, but then fainted when it couldn't contain all the energy. It's perfectly believable that there is a cap to the amount of electricity that can be absorbed before it actively harms the Pokemon, and there's even a precedent of Pikachu (and Pachirisu) getting physically ill from doing just that. It breaks game rules, but I'll buy it in the anime.

Having seen the episode myself I do believe the problem is .....the way it was shown.

Like imagine if Electivire was vomiting electricty, leaking it out of every avaliable pore as it overwhelms the poor thing. That effect would probably have sold the idea better. It is one oversight that creates the issue.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

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Like imagine if Electivire was vomiting electricty, leaking it out of every avaliable pore as it overwhelms the poor thing. That effect would probably have sold the idea better. It is one oversight that creates the issue.
I dunno, that sounds a bit too gruesome for this anime if you ask me, and I don't think Electivire fans would enjoy seeing their favorite Pokemon in that kind of visual. Honestly, showing Electivire visibly exhausted and panting, perhaps with sparks of Electricity surrounding its body (I'm picturing something similar to the visual we get when a Pokemon is paralyzed or takes recoil damage) would suffice.
 

KrspaceT

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I dunno, that sounds a bit too gruesome for this anime if you ask me, and I don't think Electivire fans would enjoy seeing their favorite Pokemon in that kind of visual. Honestly, showing Electivire visibly exhausted and panting, perhaps with sparks of Electricity surrounding its body (I'm picturing something similar to the cisual we get when a Pokemon is paralyzed or takes recoil damage) would suffice.

....Perhaps, but you get what I am going for.
 

R1ke

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THEY DON'T MISS

Hands down best PWC battle so far! Absolutely loved the setup, atmosphere, switching, matchups, strategies, animation and especially music here. They cut straight to the chase. So many cool moments, I can't list them all. Volkner is amazing man and was going all out. He was intimidating, calculating, humble, approachable all at once. You can tell he just wants a good fight. His relationship with Ash is different to most gym leaders, since Ash was the reason he got back into battling in the first place whilst he was able to push Infernape enough to master its blaze ability. Without Ash, Volkner wouldn't even be here. Also loved how Ash mentioned he brought back his Z ring specifically for him, shows just how much he respects Volkner and isn't messing around. Even within the battle, Volkner was winning 1st half then Ash won 2nd half. Seriously thought that Ash was gonna lose at one point.

Glad to see my boy Lucario finally got his time to shine. It stings that Gengar hasn't had a win yet, but it actually makes sense here. Gengar's a wildcard, someone unpredictable who's high risk high reward. Against slower and stronger opponents (like Luxray and Raichu) he can throw them off with his agility and fast attacks. But when his opponent can match his speed and get a few good hits off, it's game over for him (like Electrode and Rotom). He's also pretty frail in game anyway. Besides he was still important, being able to weaken Luxray so Lucario could eventually draw with it (otherwise he would've just gone down to him).

Nitpicks wise:
  • No appearance or mention of Flint (weird since other major PWC battles always had someone major there)
  • They didn't mention Ash's champion status in his scoreboard
  • Lucario vs Luxray draw felt rushed
  • Gengar went down too quickly and didn't use shadow ball or dazzling gleam
  • Still iffy on that motor drive vs z move, cause I don't think it'll win in game but overloading electric types makes sense
  • 99 --> 64 is quite a bit (though there was a disparity in rank), albeit glad there's no offscreen jumps

But honestly between the stunning battle, return of Pikashunium-Z, Cynthia return and master class tease, this is one of my favourite Journeys episodes altogether. Between Vesiquez, Volkner, Clemont and even Tapu Koko, battles against electric trainers/pokemon have been absolute bangers in the series and this lives up to it for the most part. If this is how PWC is moving forward, it's gonna be great. 9/10.
 

Alola

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I just realized that this episode gave us

1629521677777.png


Rotom refereeing Rotom. :lapras:

Think of the caption potential.
 

VetProf

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See, just because the show has this habit it doesn't mean it's something that it's a good thing nor should it be a recurring trend. It's actually rather annoying if anything, because altering the rules of how moves and Abilities work whenever it's convenient isn't really a good writing strategy (unless, I suppose, you're explicitly playing it for comedy). And like I said, Electric Terrain still being active would have actually helped add another layer of plausible explanation for why Pikachu's Z-Move was able to override Motor Drive, so it staying around instead of instantly fading away would have had far more benefits than downsides.

IMO, I don't think it's a bad idea for the writers to "bend" the rules of the games, especially if it allows them to make exciting battles while still maintaining suspension of disbelief. A simple example that I like to bring up when talking about "game logic vs anime logic" is when Lance's Gyarados used Aqua Tail to free itself from Fire Spin in its battle against Leon's Charizard. Is that something you can do in-game? No, there are no specific interactions between these two moves. This is basically, as you called it, "altering the rules of how moves and Abilities work whenever it's convenient." But did anyone complain about it? No, because it makes sense. Gyarados used a Water-type move to free itself from a Fire-type attack that was trapping it. The logic checks out, so no one bothered questioning it.

Something to keep in mind about the game mechanics is that they're taken from turn-based RPGs that constantly change and evolve throughout the generations. If an Electric-type Pokemon was paralyzed in this episode, would you call it a plot hole despite the exact same thing happening in the first Ash vs Volkner battle many seasons ago, back when such a thing was perfectly in-line with game logic? Not only does game logic seem arbitrary and nonsensical at times (especially when applied to a more dynamic medium that doesn't involve turn-based battles), but it's also constantly updated with each generation, so it's unreasonable to expect the anime to perfectly comply with it while maintaining suspension of disbelief as well as continuity.

With that said, I do understand why cases like the Soak incident from last season and the 10M Volt Thunderbolt from this episode seem especially dumb to a lot of viewers. Type immunities are a very definite, long-standing thing that even the anime complies with 99% of the time. In fact, considering how often Pokemon throw ineffective attacks at each other while tanking super-effective attacks in the anime, type immunities seem to be the last few reminders that the type chart still exists in the anime. So seeing Pikachu just blatantly ignore these hard-set rules definitely feels aggravating to a lot of viewers, even if the anime tries to justify it with some sort of explanation.

Still, I stand by my original point that 10M Volt Thunderbolt overloading and breaking through Motor Drive makes just enough sense for me to excuse it. Electric-type Pokemon getting overloaded is an actual thing in the anime, after all. Plus, there's already a precedent in the games of Z-moves breaking through immunities: Protect. All damage-dealing Z-moves can break through Protect (and other similar protective moves) while dealing 25% of their original damage. While there obviously isn't a similar in-game interaction between 10M Volt Thunderbolt and Motor Drive, I think the effect shown in this episode is quite similar, so that helps make it feel more believable. And yes, I agree that 10M Volt Thunderbolt breaking through Motor Drive would've been much more believable if Electric Terrain was still up.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

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IMO, I don't think it's a bad idea for the writers to "bend" the rules of the games, especially if it allows them to make exciting battles while still maintaining suspension of disbelief. A simple example that I like to bring up when talking about "game logic vs anime logic" is when Lance's Gyarados used Aqua Tail to free itself from Fire Spin in its battle against Leon's Charizard. Is that something you can do in-game? No, there are no specific interactions between these two moves. This is basically, as you called it, "altering the rules of how moves and Abilities work whenever it's convenient." But did anyone complain about it? No, because it makes sense. Gyarados used a Water-type move to free itself from a Fire-type attack that was trapping it. The logic checks out, so no one bothered questioning it.

Something to keep in mind about the game mechanics is that they're taken from turn-based RPGs that constantly change and evolve throughout the generations. If an Electric-type Pokemon was paralyzed in this episode, would you call it a plot hole despite the exact same thing happening in the first Ash vs Volkner battle many seasons ago, back when such a thing was perfectly in-line with game logic? Not only does game logic seem arbitrary and nonsensical at times (especially when applied to a more dynamic medium that doesn't involve turn-based battles), but it's also constantly updated with each generation, so it's unreasonable to expect the anime to perfectly comply with it while maintaining suspension of disbelief as well as continuity.

With that said, I do understand why cases like the Soak incident from last season and the 10M Volt Thunderbolt from this episode seem especially dumb to a lot of viewers. Type immunities are a very definite, long-standing thing that even the anime complies with 99% of the time. In fact, considering how often Pokemon throw ineffective attacks at each other while tanking super-effective attacks in the anime, type immunities seem to be the last few reminders that the type chart still exists in the anime. So seeing Pikachu just blatantly ignore these hard-set rules definitely feels aggravating to a lot of viewers, even if the anime tries to justify it with some sort of explanation.

Still, I stand by my original point that 10M Volt Thunderbolt overloading and breaking through Motor Drive makes just enough sense for me to excuse it. Electric-type Pokemon getting overloaded is an actual thing in the anime, after all. Plus, there's already a precedent in the games of Z-moves breaking through immunities: Protect. All damage-dealing Z-moves can break through Protect (and other similar protective moves) while dealing 25% of their original damage. While there obviously isn't a similar in-game interaction between 10M Volt Thunderbolt and Motor Drive, I think the effect shown in this episode is quite similar, so that helps make it feel more believable. And yes, I agree that 10M Volt Thunderbolt breaking through Motor Drive would've been much more believable if Electric Terrain was still up.
That comment of mine you're quoting wasn't talking about Pikachu's Z-Move overriding Motor Drive, though (I actually do agree with you that it just barely passes the realm of believability, and I even said as much in my analysis of the episode), I was responding to Reborn Talonflamme's explanation of why Electric Terrain lasted so little time the second time around when compared to when it was first set up, which they attributed to Luxray being knocked out, something that to me didn't make sense due to field-affecting moves not being shown to have such a downside in any other instances. I did mention that Electric Terrain being present would have helped the Z-Move override look more logical, but I meant it in a "it would have added an extra layer of believability" way, not a "it would have fixed a problem" way
 

VetProf

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That comment of mine you're quoting wasn't talking about Pikachu's Z-Move overriding Motor Drive, though (I actually do agree with you that it just barely passes the realm of believability, and I even said as much in my analysis of the episode), I was responding to Reborn Talonflamme's explanation of why Electric Terrain lasted so little time the second time around when compared to when it was first set up, which they attributed to Luxray being knocked out, something that to me didn't make sense due to field-affecting moves not being shown to have such a downside in any other instances.
Ah, I see, my mistake. Regarding Electric Terrain lasting for a shorter time the second time it was used, I think Luxray being tired is a sufficient explanation for that. Gengar did enough damage to Luxray that one more hit from Lucario was enough to knock it out, so it was already quite tired by the time it used Electric Terrain for the second time. Personally, I don't really pay much attention to how long stuff like weather effects and terrain effects last, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the user's stamina is directly tied with how strong the effect is when the move is used. In the case of previous examples like Ash's Goodra and Tierno's Blastoise, we only saw them using Rain Dance once per battle IIRC, so it's difficult to gauge how powerful the summoned rain really was compared to if they used Rain Dance at full strength.
 

Ghost Diplocaulus

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Ah, I see, my mistake. Regarding Electric Terrain lasting for a shorter time the second time it was used, I think Luxray being tired is a sufficient explanation for that. Gengar did enough damage to Luxray that one more hit from Lucario was enough to knock it out, so it was already quite tired by the time it used Electric Terrain for the second time. Personally, I don't really pay much attention to how long stuff like weather effects and terrain effects last, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the user's stamina is directly tied with how strong the effect is when the move is used. In the case of previous examples like Ash's Goodra and Tierno's Blastoise, we only saw them using Rain Dance once per battle IIRC, so it's difficult to gauge how powerful the summoned rain really was compared to if they used Rain Dance at full strength.
There is a difference between power and duration of effects, though. I know it may seem like a weird thing to fixate on, but I guess just find it a little weird that if the writers really wanted Pikachu to win by overriding Electivire's Ability, why not add as many elements to benefit that outcome as possible? They had Electric Terrain perfectly set up as a tool that would have been perfectly viable, after all.
 

nickdt

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The thing they should have done with the Z-Moves, is let Electivire tank it to some capacity, but the move seriously damaged it and made it so it couldn't move properly anymore and its reaction time was lowered due to the overload of Electricity and then when it used its next Electric type move, it would fall over due to that.

What didn't help was that Volkner didn't act even remotely surprised.

Also: Did i miss it, or didn't they show Electivire vs Torterra in a flashback.
 
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PokeFan2005

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Dawn should be in the audience and support Ash. She is back in Sinnoh, after all. Such a little cameo as in the case of Gary in episode 71.
 

R1ke

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Few things after more viewings:
  • Flint not commentating being here is kinda understandable, since it would've taken time from the actual battle. Not to mention introducing him to Ash/Goh as well. The battle was pretty fast paced and couldn't really pause much for commentary. Besides if he was there but didn't do much, it would've also felt lacking.
  • Lucario vs Luxray draw was abrupt but made sense given how much damage they'd both taken by that time (Lucario especially)
  • It's good Gengar didn't use shadow ball on luxray since he was just shown blocking a similar projectile attack with rising voltage; also lol he doesn't even have dazzling gleam yet so idk why I brought that up
  • Liked how Volkner acknowledged pikachu learning electroweb
  • Kinda funny Lucario's using close-range aura spheres instead of force palm - almost as if the writers know force palm is fairly weak for it. Give it a new move guys, I know you want to.
  • Motor drive bypass kinda seems silly, but the anime bends game logic all the time anyway

Anyways increasing my score to 9.5/10, I reckon it deserves it and is a cut above most Journeys episodes we've gotten so far.
 

Paulisthebest

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I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think my FAVORITE World Coronation Series battle that Ash competed in was his FIRST one against Visquez. It was a great battle that showed off Gengar's abilities along with giving it a VICTORY! Pikachu using Electroweb as a 'shield' to avoid Electrode's Aftermath ability was creative instead of something aggravating in terms of 'anime logic.'

I knew before going into this episode that Ash would bring using the godly Z-Ring given to him by "Tapu Christ." I figured it would be used to take out Luxray or Volkner's other ace if he got an even more powerful electric type. However, ELECTIVIRE?!?!?!?!?!? Ok, so most guidebooks and Pokedex entries say this:

Electivire is said to have the best electrical-energy output of all Electric-type Pokémon. The tips of its tails generate electricity, which shock opponents on contact with over 20,000 volts.

I suppose a Pokemon able to zap opponents with 20,000 volts might have a bit of an issue with absorbing 10 MILLION VOLTS in one attack...

*Real talk, if Paul was watching this battle on T.V., he is the type to train HIS Electivire in order to use that Z-move to his own benefit. We know he is one to use his opponent's moves to power up his own Pokemon and their attacks. Keep that nugget of info in mind...

Ok, I believe that it has been shown multiple times in the anime that too much electric buildup could cause electric types to get sick, act more aggressively or even prevent them from using electric moves properly. Heck, we've seen this with Ash's Pikachu on multiple occasions.

Motor Drive is supposed to absorb any and all electric moves aimed at it to increase speed. Of course, we know in the GAMES once speed is at +6 it can't go higher. After that, electric moves can hit the Pokemon but aside from 0 damage there is no additional benefit from the ability. In the ANIME, I can believe Motor Drive could be overpowered with a big enough electric move to bypass the immunity. Heck, remember Pikachu using Thunder at close range to defeat Roxanne's Geodude in the first Hoenn gym battle Ash had. Yes, I know it is ridiculous. However, an ability being overpowered is somewhat believable.

Electivire is said to have the BEST electrical-energy OUTPUT of all Electric types. You'd think Volkner would have it use the tips of its tails dug into the ground to let the 10 million volt Thunderbolt travel through its body into the ground. That way it wouldn't take damage and the attack would travel through another source (possibly WRECKING the gym in the process but still).

I guess Electivire is like a phone battery, if you leave it charge up too long or it overcharges; it stops working properly or even at all. Ok, I'll stop trying to make sense of this because it's the anime where anything goes. My TRUE issue with all of this was that this was a HYPER CLASS BATTLE. If "anything goes" here then this could mean Ash facing off with the likes of Cynthia or other incredibly powerful trainers we've seen before in the anime could lose to even more ridiculous means so long as it means Ash makes it from his current rank to the ultimate battle with Leon.

Imagine Pikachu's Z-move damaging or even DEFEATING Cynthia's Garchomp because despite having TYPE IMMUNITY to electric moves, the attack has so much juice that not even Ground Pokemon could resist it.

Anyway...

-It would've been funny if Drone Rotom had a bit of sadness seeing on of its own kind defeated when Fan Rotom got knocked out by Lucario
-Animation was overall pretty darn good
-Gengar should've defeated Luxray before going down to Fan Rotom just to give it ONE win
-Lucario taking out an Electric/Flying type in ONE hit despite it being a not very effective move? Ok...
-Lucario "shaking off paralysis" eh it happens in the games right if a Pokemon's affection is high enough
-Lucario defeating Luxray in a double knock out? Seriously, Luxray took a Psychic/Night Shade combo from Gengar and then a close range Aura Sphere before getting knocked out, but Lucario took TWO Electric Terrain boosted Rising Voltages, an increased powered Hex due to being paralyzied before getting knocked out? While Gengar got knocked out from ONE Hex (true it was increased power due to being paralyzed by still....)? Dang they keep doing my boy dirty!
-Was it just me or did the second Electric Terrain fizzle out faster than the first one did? Having Pikachu Z move boosted by the terrain would've given even more reason to believe Electivire would have trouble absorbing all of that electricity...

Since we're getting to the TOP of the trainer pyramid, I REALLY hope Ash starts bringing back some of his old Pokemon. I love his current Pokemon (even if some get more shine than others), but it would've been cool to see some of his Ground types like Gible, Krookodile or Donphan here. Since he KNEW he was battling one of the best electric gym leaders, he could've planned ahead. Sure, he did by getting his Z-Ring/Z-Crystal. However, let's see some proper type planning too Ash...

This was a rewatchable battle, but it wasn't perfect.

Thoughts?
 
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FinnishPokéFan92

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-Lucario taking out an Electric/Flying type in ONE hit despite it being a not very effective move? Ok...
Reversal at full power is pretty dang strong, and Rotom isn't exactly the bulkiest of Pokémon. Not at least in this form.
 

nickdt

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I think at least Aura Sphere and Reversal are staples for Ash's Lucario.

I can't shake the feeling they dropped the ball with Dawn when she returned

Korrina - Shows one of her Pokemon has evolved
Iris - Show one of her Pokemon has evolved
Volkner- returns with updated movesets on his Pokemon and shows off a new Pokemon.
 

VetProf

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I think at least Aura Sphere and Reversal are staples for Ash's Lucario.

I can't shake the feeling they dropped the ball with Dawn when she returned

Korrina - Shows one of her Pokemon has evolved
Iris - Show one of her Pokemon has evolved
Volkner- returns with updated movesets on his Pokemon and shows off a new Pokemon.
All three of these returning characters are active battlers competing in the Pokemon World Championships, and all of them directly faced Ash in an official battle when they returned. Since the emphasis in their return episodes were their battles against Ash, the writers most likely made changes/improvements to their team in order to "surprise" the viewers and avoid the battles from feeling too similar to their previous battles. Meanwhile, the main highlights of Dawn's return episodes were her interactions with Chloe, so the writers probably didn't have as big of a reason to show any updates to her team. Still, it definitely would've been nice if the writers showed us more of Dawn's Pokemon so that we'd have a better idea of how much she has progressed on her journey.
 

Paulisthebest

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Reversal at full power is pretty dang strong, and Rotom isn't exactly the bulkiest of Pokémon. Not at least in this form.
It did take some damage from Electroweb...

I suppose Lucario taking that barrage of Air Slashes while it was charging up Reversal added more power to it as well. I agree with you that Rotom isn't the bulkiest of Pokemon. However, we know the anime picks and chooses when a Pokemon can take A LOT of punishment (not the move Punishment just a lot of damage in general) vs. letting them faint after little damage or just one move in general.

Heck, it is a Steel type, but Lucario isn't THAT bulky when compared to Gengar but it took WAY more damage than Gengar before it finally fainted.
 
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