• Bubapedia Error 503 Backend fetch failed

    Our technical staff are continuing to monitor the wiki to try and resolve these ongoing issues that are impacting page and image loading. We apologize for the inconvenience. We'll update as soon as we've got more information on this for you.

  • Check out our new Mysterious Garden forum style if you haven't already - we're sure you'll love it!
  • All members are allowed to express their opinions, no matter how unpopular, so long as they respect others and do not claim their opinion is the only valid opinion. While we understand that there is debate regarding Goh, someone posting an opinion you disagree with does not give you the right to attack them or report the content for trolling/baiting. This notice will serve as a 0-point warning and as such, Anime & Manga staff reserve the right to jump immediately to point warnings. For more information regarding our stance on arguments and debates, see this PSA.
  • If you are finding yourself unable to log in, you should be able to fix the issue by following the following process.
    1. Close all browser tabs with any part of Bulbagarden open.
    2. Delete all Bulbagarden.net cookies (and if possible, any cached site data for Bulbagarden) from your browser.
    3. Close and reopen your browser, open a new tab, and log into the forums on the new tab.
    If you've followed this process and are still having issues, please contact us via the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the forum.

Review JN115: Opening! Masters Tournament!!

Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
118
Reaction score
298
You took the words right out of my mouth :LOL: That exactly why I've never liked Leon and his behavior which often lacks dignity ;)
I thought you hated him because he reminded you of someone from the ghetto.

Acting like champions need to act with dignity and ”charisma” misses the point of this franchise where we have seen across multiple forms of media that even the most dignified champion may be deposed by some random child from a random town. That does not diminish the prestige of the position. Who needs to command authority when you are the authority?
 

Queen Cynthia

Angelic Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
789
Not to be rude but can y'all stop psychoanalyzing a ten-year-old boy? LMAO. There isn't a deeper meaning to the things he is doing. He just does whatever comes to mind first.
I don't want to be rude either, but let me ask you this: If, in your eyes, we mustn't analyze Ash, then what's the point of this section of the forums in the first place? I mean in most of the threads here people discuss the show on a level that goes far far beyond what we get to see (or what the writers' original intention might have been). So what's the point of all this if it's just a "kids show"? (I hate that term). Or let me put it a bit more provocatively: Wouldn't it be kind of disturbing if mainly adults (most of the users here probably are grown-ups) regularly discuss about a show "for kids" if it didn't have any deeper meaning?

I thought you hated him because he reminded you of someone from the ghetto.
Yeah that too but it was mostly because of his cap that reminds me of some gangsta rap guy from the 90s. (You should have noticed already that I prefer those champions with dignified behavior and appropriate clothing :giggle:)
But there are many other things I don't like about him. What I hate most are the "superpowers" given to him courtesy of the writers and in my opinion the terribly written battle against Alain in this episode has been the sad, negative climax of his character development (...so far! Who knows whatwill be next)
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
118
Reaction score
298
But there are many other things I don't like about him. What I hate most are the "superpowers" given to him courtesy of the writers and in my opinion the terribly written battle against Alain in this episode has been the sad, negative climax of his character development (...so far! Who knows whatwill be next)
Ah yes, the power scaling argument. “If the one I want to win wins, it’s because it’s only logical. If the one I don’t want to win wins, it’s because that character is the author’s pet.”
 

Queen Cynthia

Angelic Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
789
Ah yes, the power scaling argument. “If the one I want to win wins, it’s because it’s only logical. If the one I don’t want to win wins, it’s because that character is the author’s pet.”
Sorry this is not the case ;)
Let me rephrase what you said: If the one I don't want to win wins by a totally far-fetched and implausible victory, then it's because that character is the author's pet.
We saw how Lance totally dominated Leon in their first match (until the latter gigantamaxed Charizard and pulled the DEM card). So no, Leon isn't that strong to curbstomp another member of the Masters Eight the way he did. And considering we all know how strong and intimidating Alain is, the result of that battle makes even less sense. It's not the fact Leon won that I'm criticizing, it's the totally implausible way he did it, which should be considered an insult to the fans.

And btw. if we were talking about Cynthia here instead of Leon, I would say the same (believe it or not). I would not want Cynthia to simply destroy a worthy opponent from the Masters Eight in an illogical or undeserved way, either! Instead, I'd want them to put up a great and above all epic fight and finally, of course, I'd want Cynthia to show her power and win. But, again, this has nothing to do with how they completely messed up that first battle.
 

FinnishPokéFan92

Huggable Electric Rodent
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
22,971
Reaction score
47,324
Pronouns
He/Him
We saw how Lance totally dominated Leon in their first match (until the latter gigantamaxed Charizard and pulled the DEM card).
Actually, Leon was in control the whole time. His Charizard knew Thunder Punch all along, and he just waited for a proper timing to use it.
 

Queen Cynthia

Angelic Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
789
Actually, Leon was in control the whole time. His Charizard knew Thunder Punch all along, and he just waited for a proper timing to use it.
We did watch the same battle, didn't we? ;) Before Charizard G-maxed, Lance had clearly been dominant.
Anyways, I don't want to get lost in details, I mentioned that battle because back then, Leon was still portrayed in a relatively realistic way and we learned it's not that the Masters Eight members couldn't hold a candle to each other. And look where Plot Armor has brought us now.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
118
Reaction score
298
Let me rephrase what you said: If the one I don't want to win wins by a totally far-fetched and implausible victory, then it's because that character is the author's pet.
I swam in the Star Wars fandom soup long enough to know that “far-fetched and implausible” are only qualifiers if someone doesn’t like the outcome of a given fight. It‘s rarely about how the fight is framed (which is always worthy of scrutiny) and more about how “this battle ended in a way I didn’t want, so I’ll write 50 essays as to why it’s a terrible battle and how I’m not hating the characters at all.”
 

HiroHunter

Limits can be broken!
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Messages
836
Reaction score
1,139
So this was the start to the master 8 huh...... Well fuck this i'm going to wait until Ash vs Leon comes out. Didn't have any hope for the master 8 to start with and now i'm glad I didn't.
 

FinnishPokéFan92

Huggable Electric Rodent
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
22,971
Reaction score
47,324
Pronouns
He/Him
So this was the start to the master 8 huh...... Well fuck this i'm going to wait until Ash vs Leon comes out. Didn't have any hope for the master 8 to start with and now i'm glad I didn't.
This battle suffered from not having the whole episode for itself. The following battles won't have that problem.
 

Queen Cynthia

Angelic Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
789
I swam in the Star Wars fandom soup long enough to know that “far-fetched and implausible” are only qualifiers if someone doesn’t like the outcome of a given fight. It‘s rarely about how the fight is framed (which is always worthy of scrutiny) and more about how “this battle ended in a way I didn’t want, so I’ll write 50 essays as to why it’s a terrible battle and how I’m not hating the characters at all.”
I understand why you might think that way. But I can assure you it has little to do with the fact that I generally don't like Leon or that I didn't like the outcome of the fight. If you read my initial post, you'd see that I did indeed analyze the battle carefully (the way that I always do when writing a review).
And btw. I'm not the only one. Look at how the fandom reacted to this episode and the outrage and criticism it caused among many many fans. I'd say the vast majority hated how that battle was written, not necessarily the first part, but definitely the second part when Charizard entered the battle.
 

Sai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
1,298
Reaction score
1,806
JN has given me zero reason to give it a single benefit of the doubt and I don't have much reason to start now.
Almost every other battle this series has gotten good treatment except a few (the Drasna one, and some parts of the final Bea match).
 

PkmnTrainerV

Flame Trainer
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
11,449
Reaction score
26,268
So I’ve been binge watching the PWT recently, and was about to write a glowing review… till this part. So, are you seriously telling me, Alain, who trained enough to defeat 10 mega evolutions in a row, who curb stomped the entire Kalos region and its gym leaders on a whim, his Charizard lost in TWO HITS? Seriously, they could’ve put up literally ANYONE to waste against Leon for the first round and they picked the character the audience is most invested in after Iris? All the while ruining his established power, training and dedication? Just when I thought the series was addressing my complaints…

I literally paused the episode when I saw the matchup because there was no way it would end well. Why not use Diantha here? Why involve Alain at all? In an ideal scenario he should be able to defeat any of Leon's non-Charizard Pokémon and give his Charizard a run for his money.
 
Top