Preview JN122: The Semifinals I: "Overwhelming Victory"

[FinnishPokéFan92]

what if Leon turned out to have similar on-the-fly improv skills like Ash?

Leon's secret weapon is his unpredictability. He adjusts his Pokémon's movesets to be suitable for each opponent he faces.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Leon's secret weapon is his unpredictability. He adjusts his Pokémon's movesets to be suitable for each opponent he faces.

I already pointed out why that's not enough: if having the right movesets was enough to net anyone a victory, then how come Ash's Heracross didn't beat Tobias's Darkrai back in Sinnoh, for example? Heracross's moveset was tailored to counter Darkrai and it still lost, so clearly having the right moves for the occasion is far from enough to guarantee a victory. So yeah, Leon's wins to me still seem more like he just steamrolls everyone via sheer brute force.

I mean, if having good coverage was the real secret to Leon's undefeated streak, then any times a Pokemon with a good moveset has lost just feel incredibly cheap in hindsight and makes it look as less that Leon is good at coverage and more like having good coverage just magically works for him and him only. And that's just... kinda lame.

 

[Reborn Talonflame]

I already pointed out why that's not enough: if having the right movesets was enough to net anyone a victory

Whenever someone brings that up, I have flashbacks to when the B&W anime considered Ash a “tactical genius” for teaching Krookodile Aerial Ace to battle Sawk.

Also, to agree with your point, it’s more of Sawyer’s ideology vs Ash’s all over, except the writers are dumbing it down by making it seem as though it’s all a type match-up, except Sawyer used his Pokemon’s unique attributes to control battles. Leon hasn’t been shown to be that creative/skilful with his Pokemon.
And I’d love it if Leon had a style like Ash’s. It’s why watching Dawn and May, hell, the whole of Contest Battles, was really fun. Both battlers would be adapting and using tricks, and despite my care for Ash v Leon, it would be really entertaining.

 

[Daren]

I already pointed out why that's not enough: if having the right movesets was enough to net anyone a victory, then how come Ash's Heracross didn't beat Tobias's Darkrai back in Sinnoh, for example? Heracross's moveset was tailored to counter Darkrai and it still lost, so clearly having the right moves for the occasion is far from enough to guarantee a victory. So yeah, Leon's wins to me still seem more like he just steamrolls everyone via sheer brute force.

I mean, if having good coverage was the real secret to Leon's undefeated streak, then any times a Pokemon with a good moveset has lost just feel incredibly cheap in hindsight and makes it look as less that Leon is good at coverage and more like having good coverage just magically works for him and him only. And that's just... kinda lame.

I think the show would struggle to really give Leon any one trait to explain his success other than brute force and be consistent with the past, because winning and losing has often been fairly arbitrary; having a better strategy can fail, type matchups can fail, loving your Pokémon can fail. Overwhelming power might actually be the most effective method 'cause it wasn't brilliant strategy that gave Tobias his crushing league victory; it was having two Legendary Pokémon.

 

[flowerfun]

This sounds like a post from twitter. The only one that felt turn-based was Lance/Diantha, but that was done on purpose since it was a strategic battle.

Iris/Cynthia had Excadrill constantly bouncing on Gastrodon as it used Muddy Water, Milotic wrapping Dragonite, and of course the whole Haxorus/Garchomp fight was a back and forth anime style battle.

In the Steven match Metagross was constantly dodging, Gengar was avoiding most attacks, and Pikachu using electro web on Cradily's tentacles to wrap them was a classic Ash strategy from the earlier seasons. Even the final part with Mega Metagross was dodging Pikachu's moves till the Z-move.

Fair enough. Now that I think about it maybe I was too harsh on the masters 8, looking back at some of the battles we have so far, I think Diantha vs Lance and Iris vs Cynthia were pretty good matches and it has improved a bit but my issues still remain. A lot of pokemon get taken out in 2-3 hits, making matches feel pretty rushed. Plus, a lot of the matches still feel pretty sluggish to me. I still don't think a lot of interesting strategies are being used here, only a few examples of that. The masters 8 does have it's moments, but not enough for me to like it, the battles so far just don't feel like champion-level battles to me. Plus that doesen't excuse things like using Alain as nothing more but Leon fodder, Steven's Aggron getting Ko'd because of a burn, Dragonite and Dracovish barely getting any time to shine in their respective battles, tons of ones or two shots, the general sluggishness of the battles, ect.

I just think the Master 8 could be better so far than it is now.

 

[Reborn Talonflame]

Steven's Aggron getting Ko'd because of a burn

I’ve seen a few people comment about this. Can you explain why this is seen as a negative aspect?
Paul’s Drapion was taken out by a burn, precipitated by Gliscor’s Fire Fang, and I’ve never seen anyone comment about that. Is it because it’s an underwhelming way to K’O, or does it not track with the amount of attacks it took? I do understand that Drapion is a very different matter. It pretty much took on four Pokemon in one battle, and subsequently took a lot of damage, but Aggron colliding with Dragon Rush and taking a Dazzling Gleam that shattered a few rocks/field seems like enough damage to me, especially with the burn.
Unless, you also think Drapion’s K’O was an issue, then fair enough.

 

[flowerfun]

I’ve seen a few people comment about this. Can you explain why this is seen as a negative aspect?
Paul’s Drapion was taken out by a burn, precipitated by Gliscor’s Fire Fang, and I’ve never seen anyone comment about that. Is it because it’s an underwhelming way to K’O, or does it not track with the amount of attacks it took? I do understand that Drapion is a very different matter. It pretty much took on four Pokemon in one battle, and subsequently took a lot of damage, but Aggron colliding with Dragon Rush and taking a Dazzling Gleam that shattered a few rocks/field seems like enough damage to me, especially with the burn.
Unless, you also think Drapion’s K’O was an issue, then fair enough.

It was another example of a pokemon getting taken down far too quickly, and it went down way too fast for a CHAMPION pokemon. This is a tournament where CHAMPIONS are battling each other, a pokemon shouldn't be taken out this easily, not to mention it was way too anti-climatic. I can't speak for that Drapion thing since I haven't seen DP yet tho.

 

[Sai]

I think the problem is thinking champions pokemon are all these unbeatable gods, when in reality only their aces seem much stronger than the rest of their pokemon. Like for Cynthia for example her Garchomp seems very strong, but the rest of her pokemon are strong but on the level of normal pokemon.

 

[flowerfun]

Ya but still, you'd expect a champion-level pokemon to be more skilled than this.

(This is the 69th reply on this post and I'm proud of that lol)

 

[Imtnt]

Dont know.. there werent in general in this round 1 enough pokemon we can honestly say acted like "chmapions pokemon". Maybe it is good topic to take aces aside and count how many pokemon were realy amazing in the level of what the fandom suggest. I think only Cradily did that for us.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

I mean, if having good coverage was the real secret to Leon's undefeated streak, then any times a Pokemon with a good moveset has lost just feel incredibly cheap in hindsight and makes it look as less that Leon is good at coverage and more like having good coverage just magically works for him and him only. And that's just... kinda lame.

Plus, it kind of implies that only Leon would be smart enough to have a balanced moveset tailored to his opponents...As if the other champions, especially Cynthia, were just supporting characters who wouldn't be able to do the same...

You see, I was criticized for hating Leon in the past, but that's exactly why. And although it gives me some satisfaction to see more and more fans start to dislike Leon too, I wished it wasn't so and he was portrayed differently. That totally unrealistic character of Leon and how he is being handled might eventually destroy the whole PWC concept.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Plus, it kind of implies that only Leon would be smart enough to have a balanced moveset tailored to his opponents...As if the other champions, especially Cynthia, were just supporting characters who wouldn't be able to do the same...

You see, I was criticized for hating Leon in the past, but that's exactly why. And although it gives me some satisfaction to see more and more fans start to dislike Leon too, I wished it wasn't so and he was portrayed differently. That totally unrealistic character of Leon and how he is being handled might eventually destroy the whole PWC concept.

Leon being portrayed as the only trainer to use varied movesets and that being the key to his success would also be a bad move on part of the writers because we've had plenty of instances in the anime where other trainers do the exact same thing, so the only way for that to work would be to suddenly make everyone else too stupid rather than making Leon actually smart and strategic. Heck, Cynthia's Garchomp was actually introduced with a pretty good moveset that had decent coverage and utility (though it lacked ranged options, which imo is something of a major flaw, as it means Garchomp can be put at a disadvantage if she can't reliably get close to the opponent): first was Dig, which is STAB and can be used as either an evasive manouver or a way to ambush the opponent or both; Dragon Rush, which is another STAB and a powerful ramming attack that may cause opponents to flinch, thus potentially leaving them vulnerable and wide open for another blow should they manage to hang on; Giga Impact, which is a classic high-risk high-reward finisher that hits everything but Rocks, Steels, and Ghosts for massive damage (and the first two have a type disadvantage against Garchomp anyway, meaning they're not an issue. Ghosts, meanwhile, tend to be pretty frail, so Garchomp's other moves can easily take care of them in most scenarios); and finally Brick Break, which takes care of most Ice-types (Garchomp's biggest Achilles Heel), breaks through Screens, and serves as a decent tool to block or parry other attacks, most notably projectiles.

See, the problem is not with Leon himself, but rather with the writing. With Leon I get the impression that the writers don't actually want to put in the necessary work on him to make him actually live up to his hype as the World's Strongest, which, to be fair, is actually a very common problem in storytelling in general: many writers often go way overboard with hyping up certain characters, which results in audiences finding those characters' actual performances to be nowhere near as amazing as what the narrative claimed. And honestly, I think in Pokemon itself this problem actually can be traced all the way back to Cynthia herself: I mean, notice how her debut had her mow down Paul effortlessly not through strategy, but simply because her Garchomp was just that much more powerful than any of his Pokemon. The reason it didn't seem as much of a problem back then was because at the time, the battles were still mostly focused in "ordinary" trainers, thus making it believable that high-ranking ones were still untouchable; and also because although Cynthia was still portrayed as incredibly strong, there was no indication that she was invincible: Paul's Torterra did manage to briefly bring Garchomp to her knees, and other high-ranking trainers were still portrayed as at the very least being able to hold their own against her even if they didn't win. With Leon, the issue comes off as more egregious because the power level has gotten so high that it feels ridiculous to not have everyone be roughly on par with one another, but for some reason Leon is still made to be so good that even other Champions look like weak, useless chumps next to him. Keep in mind that not even the games hype him up this much: he's still said to be "undefeatable" and stronger than the average Champion, but nowhere does it say that he's that much more powerful (Raihan is Champion level and before the player comes into the picture he's the only one who can even give Leon a tough fight, implying that other Champions could do the same even if they would likely ultimately lose), let alone that he's the strongest trainer in the world.

Personally, I think a good way to fix all of Leon's issues would've been if he was given a combination of all the skills we've seen other powerful trainers use: in addition to good use of movesets, he could've also had the cunning pre-planning of Paul, knowing how to use his Pokemon's physiology to his advantage like Sawyer, Ash's famous on-the-fly improv skills, the raw power of literally every high-ranking trainer ever, maybe even a bond so powerful with his Charizard that he doesn't need to give it vocal commands ala Anabel with all her Pokemon and Diantha with her Gardevoir... if he'd been portrayed this way, I think his status as World Strongest, and more importantly his ability to defeat anyone with minimal effort, would come accross as much more believable.

 

[Daren]

With Leon, the issue comes off as more egregious because the power level has gotten so high that it feels ridiculous to not have everyone be roughly on par with one another, but for some reason Leon is still made to be so good that even other Champions look like weak, useless chumps next to him. Keep in mind that not even the games hype him up this much: he's still said to be "undefeatable" and stronger than the average Champion, but nowhere does it say that he's that much more powerful (Raihan is Champion level and before the player comes into the picture he's the only one who can even give Leon a tough fight, implying that other Champions could do the same even if they would likely ultimately lose), let alone that he's the strongest trainer in the world.

I think what happened is that the show's no stranger to making the main rival super-strong within their class; Gary's ten badges and personal fanclub, Paul crushing Maylene, Barry, and Ash himself got annihilated by various rivals to show off how strong they are. It could be argued nobody good enough to beat eight Gym Leaders should get fodderized like that--after all, we see Ash struggling to beat those same leaders earlier--but it goes back to the gen 1 league where we have some trainers who seem woefully underqualified for the competition.

It could be argued Leon is following that same trend, but since his class is regional champion it feels more questionable--is he really that much better than everyone else in the world?

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

many writers often go way overboard with hyping up certain characters, which results in audiences finding those characters' actual performances to be nowhere near as amazing as what the narrative claimed.

Ash-Greninja in a nutshell.

Personally, I think a good way to fix all of Leon's issues would've been if he was given a combination of all the skills we've seen other powerful trainers use: in addition to good use of movesets, he could've also had the cunning pre-planning of Paul, knowing how to use his Pokemon's physiology to his advantage like Sawyer, Ash's famous on-the-fly improv skills, the raw power of literally every high-ranking trainer ever, maybe even a bond so powerful with his Charizard that he doesn't need to give it vocal commands ala Anabel with all her Pokemon and Diantha with her Gardevoir... if he'd been portrayed this way, I think his status as World Strongest, and more importantly his ability to defeat anyone with minimal effort, would come accross as much more believable.

This is what XY Ash kinda was and is what Peak Ash should be
Which was/is more hype: Ash vs Alain or Ash vs Cynthia? I think Ash vs Alain because Ash vs Cynthia hasn't been hyped up that much other than a poster and a lot of people think Ash will lose to Cynthia

 

[Imtnt]

I think we all knew Leon vs Ash in the final round is a thing for so long. Ash will face Cynthia after he just won againat Steven and it looks like no mater what he will pass her. Leon's hype and the fact he is saved for Ash, are enough to make this stupid rush and crash style. It doesnt mater how episode 122 will turn up to be, just as much as Alain's effort didn't count.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

Personally, I think a good way to fix all of Leon's issues would've been if he was given a combination of all the skills we've seen other powerful trainers use:

I agree with you. Still, there's an even simpler solution in my eyes:
Just make him roughly on par with all the other champions, don't hype up his alleged power level to such an unrealistic extent and above all, don't treat the other champions that disrepectfully. Simple as that.
I'm fine (kind of..) if he eventually wins against another champion, as long as it's a realistic, roughly balanced and exciting battle in which Leon has to struggle, too.
Also, they could introduce a long-lasting rivalry with Cynthia, a constant competition for the throne,so to speak. After all, it looks like Cynthia is the only one who would beat him if only she was allowed to! (Because she wouldn't depend on that infamous, DEM-like power boost courtesy of the writers that our dear Ash can regularly rely on.)

Speaking of Ash: If that Leon hype with his out-of-the world power lever continues, Ash defeating him would of all people would be even more far-fetched and worse than the flawed concept of Leon itself if you ask me. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, a rookie among the champions does what nobody else could do. What terrible and contrived writing! But I'm getting the feeling that's exactly what we will get....

Finally, and this really surprises me, I've always thought Japanese culture was famous for being so respectful, especially towards ladies. Never would I have thought they would actually show a lady (Diantha) being treated by a guy like that.

 

[Enzo]

Finally, and this really surprises me, I've always thought Japanese culture was famous for being so respectful, especially towards ladies. Never would I have thought they would actually show a lady (Diantha) being treated by a guy like that.

How on Earth is Leon disrespecting Diantha by... going all out against her in a fair battle????

If anything, Leon not going all out against her would be actually disrespectful to her, because it's almost as if she "can't take it" and he has to go easy on her because she's a woman. Treating a female opponent like she's less than a male opponent would actually be disrespectful.

Listen, I get it. You don't like Leon, and that's absolutely fair and square and I'm not holding it against you. But please don't go around treating him like he's some sort of "mindless brute", because he's not one, obviously.

 

[Lightning Flame Blast]

Sooo, is Leon getting forced to use three pokemon this time?

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Sooo, is Leon getting forced to use three pokemon this time?

No clue. The next round matches are apparently going to be full battles, so Leon should at the very least use more than half a team, if only so we can finally see what other Pokemon he's got, but judging by the title that seems very unlikely. We'll probably see only Dragapult, Rillaboom, and Charizard being used.

 

[HiroHunter]

How on Earth is Leon disrespecting Diantha by... going all out against her in a fair battle????

If anything, Leon not going all out against her would be actually disrespectful to her, because it's almost as if she "can't take it" and he has to go easy on her because she's a woman. Treating a female opponent like she's less than a male opponent would actually be disrespectful.

Listen, I get it. You don't like Leon, and that's absolutely fair and square and I'm not holding it against you. But please don't go around treating him like he's some sort of "mindless brute", because he's not one, obviously.

I think they were joking when they said that.