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Review JN129: The Finals I: "Torrent"

Gimmicks are bound by rules for a reason. I think it's a stretch to say that Ash worked particularly hard for them, anyway. The payoff is disproportionate.

"It's Leon's fault!" doesn't work when discussing a narrative choice made by OLM. As a matter of fact, I do find Leon to be cocky and rather obnoxious in an "endearing" way. But this is Ash's story, not his. Ash took the easy way out by accepting the offer.
That’s such a double standard considering that the one gimmick per battle is also a narrative choice by OLM, just like any battle setup. Are we also gonna call foul on Ash using a Z-move against Volkner or Cynthia using Mega Evolution against Iris despite the opponent not having a gimmick? Were Ash and Cynthia taking the easy way out there? This is a work of fiction where whatever the rules are are the whim of the writers. Don’t treat it like Ash is somehow cheating because this is hardly the first time the anime has created its own rules.
 
The amount their flights would cost, keeping in mind the cost of international travel, no one is paying that amount for a bunch of amateur researchers with no experience.

Signed: Someone who started research
Ash is a regional champion that traveled for all that regions . He has plenty of experience with pokemon . You could say that noone would pay professor sakuragi and professor oak to keep hundreds of animals in a lab. But in the pokemon world, they do. The pokemon world´s economy only makes sense in galar, because they have the pokejobs., and in Hisui, because caught pokemon are bodyguards.
 
In my eyes this episode showed that the whole "undefeatable champion" drivel was exaggerated on purpose to hype up Leon (as I already predicted countless times before :sneaky: )
The battle itself was ok and I won't deny that Leon is a strong champion. But...he was far from being all too impressive or extraordinarily strong, so that no one else could beat him. Again, he is a strong opponent but he's far from that undefeatable obstacle that the writers originally wanted to portray him as.
Taking all that into account, I find it even more frustrating that Cynthia wasn't allowed to win against Ash, because judging from what we've seen so far in this first episode, Cynthia would definitely have been the one to defeat Leon. (I'm not talking about Ash, because we all know he has to win courtesy of the writers and not necessarily because he deserves it)

Oh, talking about Ash: I think that special ruleset makes his victory even less legit.... Why? Yes, I know that Leon himself requested that change of the rules. But if Ash can't win with the very same ruleset that all the other "real" champions have to obey, then he simply doesn't derserve that victory. Easy as that. If Ash really wants to win fair and square, he should clearly have declined Leon's offer. If you need to rely on special rules that makle it easier for you to win (which Ash obviously does, otherwise he would have refused to play by those new rules), then you're simply not worthy or strong enough.
Are we also gonna call foul on Ash using a Z-move against Volkner or Cynthia using Mega Evolution against Iris despite the opponent not having a gimmick?
Well, Volkner and Iris technically could have used a gimmick, too. It was their "fault" that they didn't have one. But if the writers come up with special rules custom made just for Ash, and the latter doesn't decline that, then you can't help but think of it as the easy way out.
 
Well, Volkner and Iris technically could have used a gimmick, too. It was their "fault" that they didn't have one. But if the writers come up with special rules custom made just for Ash, and the latter doesn't decline that, then you can't help but think of it as the easy way out.
And Leon can make use of all the gimmicks too so the point still stands. It’s not just Ash who’s allowed to. So I guess that makes it Leon’s fault for proposing it if he doesn’t have the others.
 
Oh, talking about Ash: I think that special ruleset makes his victory even less legit.... Why? Yes, I know that Leon himself requested that change of the rules. But if Ash can't win with the very same ruleset that all the other "real" champions have to obey, then he simply doesn't derserve that victory. Easy as that. If Ash really wants to win fair and square, he should clearly have declined Leon's offer. If you need to rely on special rules that makle it easier for you to win (which Ash obviously does, otherwise he would have refused to play by those new rules), then you're simply not worthy or strong enough.
Sigh

Leon is the hype man. That's the entire crux of his character. His catchphrase is "Let's have a champion time!" for a reason.

Of course he'd allow Ash to use all three gimmicks. You're supposed to go all-out for the finale, and what better way to get the crowd (and himself) fired up than by facing off against three powerful techniques? If it was Cynthia in Ash's place, I'm sure he'd suggest the same thing.

Also, if Ash needed an "unfair advantage" to win, then that only means Leon was just as powerful as he was hyped up to be.

And the one gimmick rule? Good riddance to bad rubbish.

The thing was entirely arbitrary to begin with. Notice how they never once brought it up until just after Ash obtained a second gimmick item? And until his battle with Cynthia, it only served to nerf him and only him.
 
That’s such a double standard considering that the one gimmick per battle is also a narrative choice by OLM, just like any battle setup. Are we also gonna call foul on Ash using a Z-move against Volkner or Cynthia using Mega Evolution against Iris despite the opponent not having a gimmick? Were Ash and Cynthia taking the easy way out there? This is a work of fiction where whatever the rules are are the whim of the writers. Don’t treat it like Ash is somehow cheating because this is hardly the first time the anime has created its own rules.
Good points. I think it is not something ash should say 'No' to, anyway. Though if it was the case Ash could gain some exra points.

For me it is not the 'easy way', but the competetive way... 1 vs 1 final dule, both being able to use all of them battle skills. It is not cheating as long as it is even possible in the pokeworld and the ref said it is Ok..

I wouldn't say rules are not important, from the other hand, It is not like stealing pokemon from someone. It should not be there in the 1st place cause there is nothing wrong for someone to use his skills. Thpugh it would be realy frustrating if someone could use 6 Megas or 6 Gmax, it is still not understandable why not to use 1 mega + 1 gmax. They are not the same thing.
 
Who ever would've guessed that all it needed to take for people to finally start warming up to the Galar Starters was to see those mofos in a proper battle?

Could've saved so much time.
Thanks for nothing Goh

(Now I can only imagine how popular the Galar Starters would've been if they went to Ash? :unsure:)
That's typically what happens with the anime. Usually, whenever a Pokémon is animated well, there is a greater or newfound appreciation for it that one may not have been able to generate based off a Sugimori picture and or an in-game model alone. For me, examples include Dawn's Ambipom & Mamoswine, Ash's Gliscor & Hawlucha, Misty's Corsola, and several others - had I not had seen them animated, particularly in battle, my opinion of them as species may still be low; and I certainly wouldn't have gone out of my way to use them in various games. It's one of the reasons I love the show - the animators and writers breathe so much more life into the world of Pokémon that the games, as good as they can be, still can fall short of.
These guys KNEW that Goh wouldn't be able to show off the Galarian Starters true potential.

They KNEW that the Galar Starters needed an actual Trainer who Battles and not just collects Pokemon
It was, and is, a pretty common sentiment, though. I don't recall too many people, on here at least, who honestly felt that Go catching all of the Galarian Starters and being as passive as he is was an amazing idea at best or plausible idea at worst. We might as well congratulate near the entire fandom.
Remember a couple of eps ago, people complained about Ash beating's Cynthia's Garchomp when it couldn't Mega Evolve, therefore not fighting it at "It's full power". Now when Ash can apply all 3 mechanics to his pokemon therefore using HIS full power, it's now a bad thing cause Leon only uses one. I feel a sort of double standard here
I don't see a double standard though because the comparisons/situations are different. There's a difference between how something is used (Ash Vs. Cynthia) and how much of that something is used (Ash Vs. Leon).
 
Something worth mentioning is that, presumably, every trainer in the PWC entered with the expectation that they'll only ever get to use one gimmick per battle. The rule was first mentioned in the Hyper Class, but it's presumably been a thing for the whole tournament, so everyone should be well aware of it. Even trainers like Ash and Cynthia, who have access to multiple gimmicks, went into the tournament fully expecting to only be able to use one gimmick per battle.

With that in mind, I think it's perfectly understandable that most trainers were satisfied with only obtaining one gimmick to use in the tournament, and we shouldn't really fault them for being "underprepared" (except Iris, I guess). Sure, getting more would give them more freedom and diversity in what they want to use for each battle, but it's nowhere near the power boost from being able to use all three different gimmicks in a single battle. If it was pre-established that the finals would allow for something like that, then I think more trainers would've gladly sought out multiple gimmicks to use. Even Leon. (Seriously, this dude yoinked a strategy that Ash used in the semi finals, trained his Pokemon to use it without being explicitly told to, and used that strategy against Ash in the very next battle. Dude probably would've flown to Alola and got himself a Z-Ring if he had enough time to do so before the finals.)

Plus, keep in mind that Dynamax on its own is already a very versatile gimmick, since you can use it on any of your Pokemon. It's not tied to a specific Pokemon like Mega Evolution, nor is it reliant on different resources like Z-Crystals. Simply being a Dynamax expert already makes Leon a very versatile trainer (putting aside how much he overuses his Charizard), so it's fine for him to only be "stuck" with one gimmick and not seek out any others, since he's got multiple different Pokemon that can make good use of the gimmick. Unfortunately, in this battle, he literally is stuck with it since he can only Dynamax one of his Pokemon, as opposed to Ash's arsenal of three different gimmicks.

Of course, most of what I've said seems irrelevant because, ultimately, it's Leon himself who decided to give Ash such a huge advantage in this battle. But that's precisely the point that I'm trying to make: the idea that Ash is given an unfairly huge advantage in this battle. I've seen some comments saying this is perfectly fine, since it allows Ash to battle at full potential by removing the restrictions that were unfairly "holding him back" to begin with. But as I've said in the beginning, it's safe to assume that Ash walked into the Masters Eight tournament knowing full well that he'll only be allowed to use one gimmick per battle, and planned accordingly. So when Leon offered Ash the option to ignore that restriction, he's essentially being given a huge advantage over his opponent that he had absolutely not planned for before. And I think that's kinda unfair.

Anyway, that's just the way I see it. Ultimately, both trainers are acting perfectly in-character and will be battling at full potential, which should validate whatever outcome is reached for this battle. And I'll likely enjoy the whole thing anyway, judging from how the first part of the battle went.
 
This thread is simply getting too toxic for “both sides”.
So? What's contrarian about wanting Ash's biggest victory to feel deserved? I don't even like XY, but Pikachu defeating Mega Lucario by itself was a lot more impressive than this. The same thing happened with Dragonite in this series.

Oh well. I don't think he'll win, and this cheap advantage makes that prospect worse. At least he'll have that coming.
You are allowed to have an opinion. What you shouldn’t be doing is the holier than thou style of posting, acting as if your opinion is the objectively superior one (or the only logical choice around). There’s just enough amount of times when people can be polite when someone replies to their post with a blanket statement dismissing entirely what was being replied to.

Remember a couple of eps ago, people complained about Ash beating's Cynthia's Garchomp when it couldn't Mega Evolve, therefore not fighting it at "It's full power". Now when Ash can apply all 3 mechanics to his pokemon therefore using HIS full power, it's now a bad thing cause Leon only uses one. I feel a sort of double standard here
And now the other side of this. You’re making no sense. Can you stop assuming bad faith on anyone who doesn’t agree? “Double standard”? How is it a double standard exactly? In Ash vs Cynthia, the people who wanted Cynthia to Mega Evolve Garchomp genuinely believed she’s the strongest that way (I personally disagree because Dynamaxing Togekiss was a better strategy and unpredictable). They wanted both trainers to be at the apex of their power. And now as Ash is allowed to power up all his Pokemon, they mostly think that Leon deserves the same when he has multiple Pokémon trained for Gigantamax (please don’t try telling me the narrative can’t pull an excuse out of its behind to allow that, they already have an established history of doing it). They don’t have a “double standard”. They just have an opinion that’s different from yours.

This thread is turning into a very, very toxic place.
Of course, most of what I've said seems irrelevant because, ultimately, it's Leon himself who decided to give Ash such a huge advantage in this battle. But that's precisely the point that I'm trying to make: the idea that Ash is given an unfairly huge advantage in this battle. I've seen some comments saying this is perfectly fine, since it allows Ash to battle at full potential by removing the restrictions that were unfairly "holding him back" to begin with. But as I've said in the beginning, it's safe to assume that Ash walked into the Masters Eight tournament knowing full well that he'll only be allowed to use one gimmick per battle, and planned accordingly. So when Leon offered Ash the option to ignore that restriction, he's essentially being given a huge advantage over his opponent that he had absolutely not planned for before. And I think that's kinda unfair.

Anyway, that's just the way I see it. Ultimately, both trainers are acting perfectly in-character and will be battling at full potential, which should validate whatever outcome is reached for this battle. And I'll likely enjoy the whole thing anyway, judging from how the first part of the battle went.
This is probably the sanest opinion on this entire thread about how he situation, and I agree wholeheartedly with it.

Cheers to a lesser toxic discussion!
 
I would be okay with Ash using all three gimmicks if it was framed as a battle between someone who can do everything versus someone who can do only one thing. Leon is good at Dynamax/Gigantimax and has honed it to perfection. If you can only do one thing, be the best at it. Conversely, Ash has dipped his hands in three pies (Dynamax/Gigantimax, Mega Evolution, and Z-Moves), but he specializes in none of them.
 
Eternatus might admittedly be too much, but I do think it'd be cool if it allowed Leon to use Gigantamax up to three times to match the number of Ash's gimmicks. That would neatly solve any other issues people might have with alternate scenarios: Leon doesn't pull a Key Stone or Z-Ring "out of nowhere" (nevermind that Cynthia's Dyanamax Band was out of nowhere too and nobody had any issues with that, but okay), Ash doesn't have to potentially get Tobias'd for a second time, and both trainers use the same number of gimmicks instead of Ash having an arguably unfair advantage.
 
Eternatus might admittedly be too much, but I do think it'd be cool if it allowed Leon to use Gigantamax up to three times to match the number of Ash's gimmicks. That would neatly solve any other issues people might have with alternate scenarios: Leon doesn't pull a Key Stone or Z-Ring "out of nowhere" (nevermind that Cynthia's Dyanamax Band was out of nowhere too and nobody had any issues with that, but okay), Ash doesn't have to potentially get Tobias'd for a second time, and both trainers use the same number of gimmicks instead of Ash having an arguably unfair advantage.
I thought they would have done so to at least showcase G-Max Inteleon and Cinderace before the series ends, but that’s not happening. A waste of potential, but at least what we’ve gotten so far is still quite nice.
 
I thought they would have done so to at least showcase G-Max Inteleon and Cinderace before the series ends, but that’s not happening. A waste of potential, but at least what we’ve gotten so far is still quite nice.
Our final hope for those two now is for Goh to showcase them. But with his current mission (and possibly the last for this series) taking place in Hoenn, that seems very unlikely.
 
Our final hope for those two now is for Goh to showcase them. But with his current mission (and possibly the last for this series) taking place in Hoenn, that seems very unlikely.
I suppose it could be a Mega Kangaskhan situation. At some point, in the future, we may get it in some opportunity. I, for one, was not expecting Mega Evolution to reappear at the Alolan League for example.

I know Dynamax spots are region specific at the moment, but stranger things have happened in the anime.
 
I thought they would have done so to at least showcase G-Max Inteleon and Cinderace before the series ends, but that’s not happening. A waste of potential, but at least what we’ve gotten so far is still quite nice.
Sad thing is, they had the opportunity to make use of at least one other G-Max starter in the Masters 8 had they had him use Cinderace or Inteleon against Diantha.
 
I quite liked how Inteleon had a few solid moments in the spotlight this episode.

Anyways, no insult intended, but why am I starting to think some users feel the need to glorify everything Ash and Leon do, no matter what...:sneaky:
Anyways, no insult intended, but why am I starting to think some users feel the need to glorify everything Cynthia does, no matter what...:sneaky:
 
Anyways, no insult intended, but why am I starting to think some users feel the need to glorify everything Cynthia does, no matter what...:sneaky:
Well, can God or one of his angels be wrong? ;)
OK, let's get a bit more serious again: If you get the feeling that Ash and Leon have such a huge fanbase glorifying and trying to explain everything they do, then you can't help but do the same for our dignified Queen, too.
 
Well, can God or one of his angels be wrong? ;)
OK, let's get a bit more serious again: If you get the feeling that Ash and Leon have such a huge fanbase glorifying and trying to explain everything they do, then you can't help but do the same for our dignified Queen, too.
I know I've only seen the latter thus far here.
 
Please note: The thread is from 1 year ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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