Review JN130: The Finals II: "Toy Around"

[nickdt]

I'd actually love to answer that questions of yours because it's easy:
None of all the factors, except maybe using Pikachu (I've taken into account Ash's current unexperienced team and his so-called "crazy tactics" that once used to be interesting and unorthodox, but now more and more have turned into logic-defying and forced Ash-pull moves)

In case you're interested to read more: In this post I explained in detail why, currently, Ash shouldn't be able to defeat Cynthia (and the others). In particular, I'd like to emphasize thesis 1 and 3:

• Ash's team isn't ready yet: Only Pikachu, who's been around since day 1, can reasonably be considered on the same power level as the other champions' aces. The rest of Ash's team has been around for 100-120 episodes at best, so it's simply absurd to believe those Pokemon have enough training to be on par with the mightiest Pokemon of the most powerful trainers in the world. And what's worse is the way how this message keeps getting shoved down our throats. Terrible, just terrible! However, Garchomp (and Milotic too btw) was confirmed to have been with Cynthia since she was a kid. So, if there was any reasonable scenario where Ash winning would somehow have been acceptable, then it could only have been done with Pikachu. Still, I doubt our famous electric mouse is strong enough to defeat six of Cynthia's top-tier Pokemon all by himself (as I don't consider the others ready as described above)
• Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power because they didn't let her use Mega-Garchomp, her absolute ace: Ash ""defeated"" Cynthia because the writers deliberately limited Cynthia's power. Ash will defeat Leon because he didn't reject an offer that gives him an unfair advantage compared to the other champions (i.e. using all three gimmicks). Did you notice something? Obviously, Ash can't win against the strongest trainers in the world under normal circumstances, unless he's given invisible writers' support or takes the easy way out.

Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power.

Can you please stop that crap, because i am gonna counter that argument easily

Iris wasn't allowed to go full power against Cynthia cuz she didn't have acces to Mega Evolution, Z-Moves or Dynamax. Even then, the only reason Cynthia won, was because she needed to mega Garchomp, because she realized Haxorus would have destroyed Garchomp otherwise.

So yeah... that Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power argument has been debunked numerous times now... since the same applies for her.

Heck, Alain wasn't allowed to go full power against Leon either, cuz Bisharp and Metagross had to sit out... either one would have taken down Rillaboom.

Cynthia's Garchomp isn't as powerful as people give her credit for, especially when fighting CHAMPIONS.... which has been proven by both Ash and Iris... two Rookie champions compared to her and Garchomp.

Current Masters Eight power ranking
1. Leon
2. Ash
3. Iris
4. Cynthia
5. Diantha
6. Steven
7. Lance
8. Alain

 

[SlyGecko]

• Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power because they didn't let her use Mega-Garchomp, her absolute ace: Ash ""defeated"" Cynthia because the writers deliberately limited Cynthia's power. Ash will defeat Leon because he didn't reject an offer that gives him an unfair advantage compared to the other champions (i.e. using all three gimmicks). Did you notice something? Obviously, Ash can't win against the strongest trainers in the world under normal circumstances, unless he's given invisible writers' support or takes the easy way out.

Even if Cynthia decided to mega evolve her Garchomp instead of dynamaxing her Togekiss, she would of lost because Garchomp didn't have any moves that could really hurt Lucario because of it's steel type. All she had at the time were three dragon moves, and stealth rock. A fairy type would of been enough to beat Garchomp since she wouldn't be able to hurt it. So the issue isn't "she wasn't allowed to go full power", it's "her Garchomp had a bad moveset to go against steel and fairy types".

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power because they didn't let her use Mega-Garchomp, her absolute ace: Ash ""defeated"" Cynthia because the writers deliberately limited Cynthia's power. Ash will defeat Leon because he didn't reject an offer that gives him an unfair advantage compared to the other champions (i.e. using all three gimmicks). Did you notice something? Obviously, Ash can't win against the strongest trainers in the world under normal circumstances, unless he's given invisible writers' support or takes the easy way out.

Dynamax is just as viable as Mega Evolution in the anime. Garchomp had already taken some hits, and Cynthia decided against risking her one gimmick being wasted by using it on a weakened Pokémon, instead opting to use her gimmick with a Pokémon that was not only still fresh, but also one that Ash wasn't expecting to be utilized for a gimmick, giving Cynthia the surprise factor and catching Ash off-guard.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

Even then, the only reason Cynthia won, was because she needed to mega Garchomp, because she realized Haxorus would have destroyed Garchomp otherwise.

That simply is not true!
Cynthia herself said that her mega-evolving Garchomp was a sign of respect and acknowledgement towards Iris and her achievements. Plus, Cynthia is not the kind of person who would use excuses or pretent something that's not true
So, can people please stop saying that Garchomp was at the verge of losing? I don't know where that illusion is coming from in the first place. May I suggest getting new glasses and watching that scene again? In fact Garchomp was hardly hurt and Haxorus didn't stand an chance.
Maybe it's because of that final scene where both Pokemon had their eyes closed which was obviously intended to add some suspense. While Haxorus had its eyes closes because it fainted shortly afterwards, Garchomp, who wasn't even touched by Haxorus' Dragon Pulse, looked pretty unfazed plus they wanted her to look cool I guess

that Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power argument has been debunked numerous times now

Frankly, I haven't seen one single example. And as long as it's not made official, it's neither confirmed nor debunked. So, while I'll admit I can't prove it completely, you mustn't say it's been debunked, either. (Btw. that makes me wonder if there's a fan or a group of fans out there with the "authority" to debunk something in the first place?)
In the end it's all fan-fiction as long as it hasn't been proven.

Cynthia's Garchomp isn't as powerful as people give her credit for, especially when fighting CHAMPIONS....

What exactly is Leon's Charizard then? All logical and not exaggerated at all? Of course...
in that case, Charizard isn't as powerful as people give it credit for, either. It's just hyped up so that enough gullible kiddies will turn on their TVs regularly and buy the new games.

All she had at the time were three dragon moves, and stealth rock.

Didn't we say we can't compare the Anime with the games? In the Anime even a non-effective Dragon Claw from the world's strongest Mega-Garchomp can be strong enough to defeat a rather inexperienced Steel-type like Lucario. Here we have the ace of one of the strongest trainers in the world that's been training for all her life and there we have a rather inexperienced Lucario hat's only been around for a couple of episodes. Now don't tell me Garchomp, let alone Mega-Garchomp, can't defeat it under normal circumstances, regardless of her moveset.

A fairy type would of been enough to beat Garchomp since she wouldn't be able to hurt it.

Except that Ash didn't have one. So, I don't quite get your point here

 

[SlyGecko]

Didn't we say we can't compare the Anime with the games? In the Anime even a non-effective Dragon Claw from the world's strongest Mega-Garchomp can be strong enough to defeat a rather inexperienced Steel-type like Lucario. Here we have the ace of one of the strongest trainers in the world that's been training for all her life and there we have a rather inexperienced Lucario hat's only been around for a couple of episodes. Now don't tell me Garchomp, let alone Mega-Garchomp, can't defeat it under normal circumstances, regardless of her moveset.

Let's stop using your Mary Sue version of Cynthia's garchomp. Lucario has shown that it is strong despite it's young age multiple time against more experienced opponents. Experience isn't everything. Someone can have more experience than their opponent, but still lose because their opponent is much stronger.

Except that Ash didn't have one. So, I don't quite get your point here

Oh you didn't? I thought I made my point clear. Cynthia's "world's strongest" Mega garchomp would get destroyed by any fairy type with it's current moveset. All that does is make her look like the world's strongest joke and make Cynthia look like a weak trainer. If journeys actually wanted to show Cynthia as one of the strongest trainers, they really needed to give her garchomp some better moves like she had in dp. Because I would never believe that Garchomp would of been able to beat Lucario with her crappy moves. Heck if they gave Garchomp her bdsp moves with earth power replacing earthquake, then yeah, I could see her being the world's strongest Garchomp. But not with three dragon type moves and stealth.

 

[Lightning Flame Blast]

If experience=win, then Ash has had plot armor against literally every gym leader and older trainer he’s ever faced.

In fact, Cynthia probably had plot armor when she beat whoever was champion before her, if that’s the case.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

. Experience isn't everything

Let somebody who's been learning an instrument and doing sports tell you this: Training equals experience and experience equals strength. So, yes Experience (and training ) is everthing, as easy as that!

It's absurd to think that, under noral circumstances, Garchomp, let alone Mega-Garchomp, who's most likely undergone massive and rigorous training for many many years, can be defeated by a Lucario that's 100 epsiodes old. That's total suspension of disbelieve. And what makes it even worse is that Ash hardly didserious training with them. Don't tell me you consider those ultra-short sequnces where Ash was "playing" with his Pokemon serious training. That might suffice for some minor regional fun leagues but certainly not for the strongest trainers in the world.
So, if you don't like the experience or time passed-argument, then at least let's agree his Pokemon are hardly trained. A Pokemon as strong as Garchomp can make up for any disadvantage that her moeveste might give her with her pure strength.
And as for the argument taht ash can almost "magically" boost his Pokemon: Sorry, no insult intende, but that's the easiest way out that I can imagine. Plus, it's supension of disbelieve and DEM combined together. Just because the almighty writer tell us he's strong now and use all kind of silly tactics and moves for that, doesn't mean I have to accept the mainstream opinion just because "it's canon" (wahtever that means)

That's a fairly reasonable explanation, but still we'll never know. As described above, my point is that given all the facts Lucario can't be on the same level as Garchomp so even a Lucario's "better" moveset shouldn't be the decisive factor So, we could go on this discussion forever but we'll never know for sure. So, I'd be happy if my opinion was just considered equally valid just like the mainstream opinion (which by the way was confirmed by many other fans who don't post publicly but send my PMs )

Throughout the series we can see how strong and powerful they are

Yes, because the writers want us to believe that. (So, of course, they can magically turn Lucario into a beast just within two episodes etc etc.) But if you ask me, not because it's done in a logically convincing way or with good writing.

Literally ever since JN125 came out you've been making shitty arguments as to why Ash's win against Cynthia is "plot armor", and I'm just sick of it.

Again, I'm very sorry I'm such an annoying moaner who just won't accept the boring mainstream opinion. I deeply apologize for not worshipping the "holy canon"
(I'd rather like to "worship" somebody who truly deserves it)

 

[flowerfun]

Let somebody who's been learning an instrument and doing sports tell you this: Training equals experience and experience equals strength. So, yes Experience (and training ) is everthing, as easy as that!

That's a false equivalency. Yes, an experienced pokemon is more powerful than an inexperienced one, however, a pokemon's experience isn't what matters the most; the feats of a pokemon are what matter and truly determine how strong a pokemon is, and the Journeys team despite their inexperience have been shown to be incredibly powerful by taking out Elite 4 to CHAMPION level pokemon.

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

I'm just very glad that Dragonite managed to secure a win here. Now she won't end the series on a sour note.

 

[Handy Man]

I just realized this episode became important to me for two reasons. This episode aired on my golden birthday, as I turned 28 on October 28th. On top of that, 2022 is the last full year of Ash Ketchum episodes ever. I’m glad my golden birthday happened the day that one of the last Journeys episodes aired, and not the following year where the new series would be well underway. It’s like Ash wanted to celebrate my most important birthday before he left. Incredible.