Review JN130: The Finals II: "Toy Around"

[FinnishPokéFan92]

How does that make it any better? The only "Ash-like strategy" that was really good and mad sense was Countershield. Many of his other "crazy tactics" were nonsense if you ask me. We're back at the point where the only explanation is "Because Holy Ash does it, it must be good although it defies all logic"

That's hardly the case. Thunder Armor is an example of an Ash strategy that is almost universally considered an a-pull.

Yes, you're right. They interact with the terrain, with the whole terrain and not just with a small layer of ice on that terrain. So, Psychic Terrain cshouldn't be destroyed by just destroying said layer of ice.

Sirfetch'd didn’t just destroy said layer of ice, it kept slashing the ground even after it was broken. Here you shift goalposts from "No move can interact with the terrain!" to "this isn’t how it should work!".

I didn't say that! I only said destroying the layer of ice doesn't destroy Psychic Terrain because the latter affects the whole battlefield, not just the ice and so slashing/destroying it wouldn't help. In my eyes it's just another awkward attempt by the writers to make Ash appear "clever" ans great

Ash didn't break Psychic Terrain by breaking the ice. As Cynthia pointed out, Sirfetch'd destroyed the terrain because he used a Bug move against a Psychic move. He basically got rid of the energy by countering it with the energy of a type that was super effective against it.

 

[Broseph08]

It wasn't destroying the ice that destroyed the psychic terrain. It was using a bug type (super effective) move on the psychic terrain after breaking the ice that removed it

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

Ash didn't break Psychic Terrain by breaking the ice. As Cynthia pointed out, Sirfetch'd destroyed the terrain because he used a Bug move against a Psychic move. He basically got rid of the energy by countering it with the energy of a type that was super effective against it.

It wasn't destroying the ice that destroyed the psychic terrain. It was using a bug type (super effective) move on the psychic terrain after breaking the ice that removed it

Careful with pointing out facts. To a conspiracy theorist or character worshipper, facts against the conspiracy is simply a part of the conspiracy itself. It is easier to deny than it is to deny an identity centered around the supposed holiness of Cynthia.

 

[Lightning Flame Blast]

Fine, then give me one, only one, example where Cynthia had to rely on those stupid ash-pull techniques and I'll never argue with you again Take your time but I guarantee you'll find none.
That'S what differentiates great characters from Plot Armor character

Cynthia’s debut literally had Garchomp being utterly unaffected by ice moves and the strongest moves from Paul’s ace. In fact, pretty much every Cynthia battle up until Iris was like that.

Cynthia’s battling, up until JN, was exactly like Leon’s early showings: shrug off big hits and one punch back. I’m not sure where you get the idea that she was always portrayed as skillful when you could chalk up all her battles as the writers glorifying Godchomp.

 

[Broseph08]

Careful with pointing out facts. To a conspiracy theorist or character worshipper, facts against the conspiracy is simply a part of the conspiracy itself. It is easier to deny than it is to deny an identity centered around the supposed holiness of Cynthia.

It's crazy because Cynthia is also my favorite champion and really one of my favorite characters from the entire Pokemon franchise but it's not a big deal that other trainers are also shown to be very talented. In the end, she (and every other champion) is from a game where a kid starts their journey and defeats them in a short amount of time. And sure Ash has had his moments of BS in the past (thunder armor) but a lot of what he's done in recent battles has been a logical evolution of previous strategies that utilize quick and outside-the-box thinking. This isn't one of the moments where the show is 'glorifying his genius' or whatever the argument is lol

 

[Broseph08]

Honestly, I love the DP season but I actually blame that anime for this. In AG, Ash was shown to be out of his league against Drake, but by Battle Frontier, he put up a good fight against Agatha and then beat Brandon who was stated to be near that level. Cynthia and especially Flint completely changed the power scale and made Ash appear to way farther away from the top than he seemed the previous season.

I still think they shouldn't have made the E4/Champions that broken in the DP season. Ash should have beaten Paul in the finals of the league and then directly challenged Cynthia afterwards and lost but still taking down at least 2 or 3 of her Pokemon. It would have shown that Ash was at Elite 4 level but quite far from Champion status.

 

[BigDocFan]

After Story image for this episode

 

[Momijiparfait]

Love how Leon told Ash that 'you really are the best'. Also, no new title yet; interesting, guess it's not a four parter after all.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Also, no new title yet; interesting, guess it's not a four parter after all.

It is. That has been confirmed. We just don't yet know the title at the moment of writing this post.

 

[KrspaceT]

I also think people are too used to lowballing Ash they tend to warp their perceptions of others around him

 

[Queen Cynthia]

Ash didn't break Psychic Terrain by breaking the ice.

He basically got rid of the energy by countering it with the energy of a type that was super effective against it.

It wasn't destroying the ice that destroyed the psychic terrain. It was using a bug type (super effective) move on the psychic terrain after breaking the ice that removed it

Well, then we must have watched two different episodes. I can hardly think of another explanation for it.
First, Sirfecth'd used Consecutive Cut / Fury Cutter (a Bug-type move) to scratch the top layer of the ice. Then ,the psychic energy from Psychic Terrain was "flowing out" as if you pierced a plastic bottle of water and the water comes out. And that is what I was criticizing as nonsense because the energy wasn't just contained inside the ice but, again, it affected the whole battlefield. And if this wasn't implausible already, you should take into account that Fury Cutter is an attack directed at a specific point while Psychic Terrain is spread across the whole battlefield. So, unless you use another status or field move, you cannot logically destroy another field move.

Careful with pointing out facts. To a conspiracy theorist or character worshipper, facts against the conspiracy is simply a part of the conspiracy itself. It is easier to deny than it is to deny an identity centered around the supposed holiness of Cynthia.

Despite all your irony, I've started to kind of like you because you seem to be entertaining Just be careful or in the end you'll end up as the true conspiracy theorist, because you're inventing and saying things about me that are plain wrong (just like a real conspiracy theorist would )

Cynthia’s debut literally had Garchomp being utterly unaffected by ice moves and the strongest moves from Paul’s ace. In fact, pretty much every Cynthia battle up until Iris was like that.

Cynthia’s battling, up until JN, was exactly like Leon’s early showings: shrug off big hits and one punch back. I’m not sure where you get the idea that she was always portrayed as skillful when you could chalk up all her battles as the writers glorifying Godchomp

I respectfully disagree.
Between Cynthia vs. Paul back then and Cynthia vs. Iris now there have only been three proper battles:
vs. Flint: Obviously a tough battle because it was mentioned Flint defeated two of Cynthia's Pokemon
vs. Caitlin: Only an exhibition fight that didn't give us much new information (except that Alder admires Cynthia too )
vs. the legendary genies: Even Garchomp had to struggle here, but I guess goes for every battle against a legendary

So, I can't see why you're comparing Cynthia, whose episodes have always been written in a perfectly logical an unbiased way, with the worst written character in the Anime (Leon). When it comes to Cynthia, there simply haven't been any, what you called, "shrug off big hits and one punch back" moments. Even the battle against Paul made sense because of course Cynthia needed to be established as the powerful champion in her first episode, plus when compared to now, Paul was much less experienced and much weaker than now which is only natural considering lots of time has passed since then. Of course Cynthia would curbstomp him back then. Are you really comparing this with Leon's terribly written, flawed fights against Alain and Diantha?

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Well, then we must have watched two different episodes. I can hardly think of another explanation for it.
First, Sirfecth'd used Consecutive Cut / Fury Cutter (a Bug-type move) to scratch the top layer of the ice. Then ,the psychic energy from Psychic Terrain was "flowing out" as if you pierced a plastic bottle of water and the water comes out. And that is what I was criticizing as nonsense because the energy wasn't just contained inside the ice but, again, it affected the whole battlefield. And if this wasn't implausible already, you should take into account that Fury Cutter is an attack directed at a specific point while Psychic Terrain is spread across the whole battlefield. So, unless you use another status or field move, you cannot logically destroy another field move.

Damage doesn't have to cover an entire area to damage the thing completely. A pin can pop a balloon by hitting just one point. A house of cards can come down if just one card is taken out.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

Damage doesn't have to cover an entire area to damage the thing completely. A pin can pop a balloon by hitting just one point. A house of cards can come down if just one card is taken out.

There's also these drops which take a hammer to the thick end and can get out relatively unscathed while smashing the light end will turn the drop to glass dust.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

Damage doesn't have to cover an entire area to damage the thing completely. A pin can pop a balloon by hitting just one point. A house of cards can come down if just one card is taken out.

Well, it might.... But don't you think you're stretching it too far just so it makes sense somehow (and just because "it's canon" so it must be right?).
No offense intended but it looks to me like supporters of that scene try to make all kind of "mind gymnastics" just to explain what Occam's Razor would just explain with a more elegenat solution: Bad writing / nonsense idea, neglecting how Psychic Terrain works, so that Ash can win (the Pl... Ar... word comes to my mind, but I'm almost afraid to post it publicly )

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Well, it might.... But don't you think you're stretching it too far just so it makes sense somehow (and just because "it's canon" so it must be right?).
No offense intended but it looks to me like supporters of that scene try to make all kind of "mind gymnastics" just to explain what Occam's Razor would just explain with a more elegenat solution: Bad writing / nonsense idea, neglecting how Psychic Terrain works, so that Ash can win (the Pl... Ar... word comes to my mind, but I'm almost afraid to post it publicly )

I think many people like moments like that because they show the anime is not a 1:1 adaptation of the games. The anime allows for different kinds of strategies than the game does.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

I think many people like moments like that because they show the anime is not a 1:1 adaptation of the games. The anime allows for different kinds of strategies than the game does.

That is true, the Anime is not the games.
However, and this has been my main point in the review threads of the last few weeks: Apart from some very basic game mechanics (Ground-types being immune to Electric-type moves etc...), at least some very basic level of logic should be applied to the battles if we don't want them to end in complete arbitrariness and absurdity. Or let me put it this way: If we accept everything by saying " Well, that's the special rules how the Anime works", then what's next? Ash defeating all champions at the same time with Lucario's gigantic Aura Sphere? Ash defeating Arceus by just tripping it? You get my point I guess.

 

[nickdt]

Ash should have used Glalie against Garchomp. Would of been an instant one shot.

 

[Queen Cynthia]

I'd actually love to answer that questions of yours because it's easy:
None of all the factors, except maybe using Pikachu (I've taken into account Ash's current unexperienced team and his so-called "crazy tactics" that once used to be interesting and unorthodox, but now more and more have turned into logic-defying and forced Ash-pull moves)

In case you're interested to read more: In this post I explained in detail why, currently, Ash shouldn't be able to defeat Cynthia (and the others). In particular, I'd like to emphasize thesis 1 and 3:

• Ash's team isn't ready yet: Only Pikachu, who's been around since day 1, can reasonably be considered on the same power level as the other champions' aces. The rest of Ash's team has been around for 100-120 episodes at best, so it's simply absurd to believe those Pokemon have enough training to be on par with the mightiest Pokemon of the most powerful trainers in the world. And what's worse is the way how this message keeps getting shoved down our throats. Terrible, just terrible! However, Garchomp (and Milotic too btw) was confirmed to have been with Cynthia since she was a kid. So, if there was any reasonable scenario where Ash winning would somehow have been acceptable, then it could only have been done with Pikachu. Still, I doubt our famous electric mouse is strong enough to defeat six of Cynthia's top-tier Pokemon all by himself (as I don't consider the others ready as described above)
• Cynthia wasn't allowed to go full power because they didn't let her use Mega-Garchomp, her absolute ace: Ash ""defeated"" Cynthia because the writers deliberately limited Cynthia's power. Ash will defeat Leon because he didn't reject an offer that gives him an unfair advantage compared to the other champions (i.e. using all three gimmicks). Did you notice something? Obviously, Ash can't win against the strongest trainers in the world under normal circumstances, unless he's given invisible writers' support or takes the easy way out.