League/Elite 4 speculation, Ash saving his best Pokemon for later?

[Cybersai]

Ash is using his Sinnoh team for the league, the writers always have Ash bring back old Pokemon after the league is over.

Let's face it, not counting the Sinnoh team, his next most powerful Pokemon not on his roster are a mix of his Kanto and Hoenn Pokemon.

The only remotely strong Johto Pokemon are Heracross and Donphan. The starters/Noctowl are too weak to be used against the Elite 4.

Ash will surely use Sceptile, the Kanto starters, Swellow, Heracross, and a mix of his other Kanto/Hoenn Pokemon.

 

[Hellion]

For once, I'm gonna agree with Ryuutakesh... there's nothing about Charizard, Sceptile, etc. coming back Everybody has their favourite pokemon that they'd like to see come back to the show. The only thing that could indicate a comeback is the new openning and Charizard, Sceptile, etc. are nowhere in it... When we get confirmation that Charizard or Sceptile or Swellow, etc. are coming back, we'll discuss it... otherwise the discussion just turns to "I really like (insert pokemon name here) and therefore, I'm sure he'll come back"

 

[Cybersai]

Can you blame people for wanting to see their favorite Pokemon back in action?

Since Sinnoh was so damn long, its now been nearly 200 episodes since the Kanto/Hoenn Pokemon did anything. Of course its been nearly 400 since the Johto starters/Noctowl have been used in battle, but I don't really care about them.

 

[Falconwing]

Since Sinnoh was so damn long, its now been nearly 200 episodes since the Kanto/Hoenn Pokemon did anything. Of course its been nearly 400 since the Johto starters/Noctowl have been used in battle, but I don't really care about them.

Ladies and Gentlemen, my point!

 

[The One and Only....]

Ash is using his Sinnoh team for the league, the writers always have Ash bring back old Pokemon after the league is over.

Let's face it, not counting the Sinnoh team, his next most powerful Pokemon not on his roster are a mix of his Kanto and Hoenn Pokemon.

The only remotely strong Johto Pokemon are Heracross and Donphan. The starters/Noctowl are too weak to be used against the Elite 4.

Ash will surely use Sceptile, the Kanto starters, Swellow, Heracross, and a mix of his other Kanto/Hoenn Pokemon.

OMG can you stop with your kanto/hoenn orgasms its getting really old dude

 

[Leonardo10]

Ladies and Gentlemen, my point!

Same here mate

 

[peno]

I still don't think Ash will use his older Pokémon in League even though they are in opening. Or more accurately, I hope he will not. It was lame when they did it in Johto and it will be even more lame if they will do the same in Sinnoh. Unlike in Johto, when thanks to bad writing, Ash's current team has no chance in league and writers had no other choice but brought back his older Pokémon, in Sinnoh Ash already has his strongest Pokémon team and that team will be even stronger once we'll get it into league. If writers really let Ash use his older Pokémon this time, I will definitely let Sinnoh fall into worst region then Johto, because in Johto, it at least makes some small sense to use old Pokémon. Now, it makes absolutely NO sense.

And (this is especially for Scott) Bayleef is much more stronger than Bulbasaur ever was and Squirtle, IMO, is Ash's second weakest Water type right after Totodile

 

[Cybersai]

And (this is especially for Scott) Bayleef is much more stronger than Bulbasaur ever was and Squirtle, IMO, is Ash's second weakest Water type right after Totodile

Bulbasaur has been in tons of battles in the anime, both major battles and in fillers against random trainers. Just because Bayleef is evolved doesn't make it *any* stronger than Bulbasaur was. Bayleef has what, two Gym battle victories against a Spinarak and a Poliwrath?


And stop this BS about Squirtle being weak. It may not be as strong as Bulbasaur/Charizard are, but Squirtle is used as Ash's powerhouse and it is definitely stronger than Totodile and Kingler. Buizel might surpass it if it evolves and Corphish was probably almost at its level.

I can't believe you guys try to downplay Ash's Kanto Pokemon.

 

[Yoshi-san]

Can't Ash depend on what he have now instead of depending on his Kanto Pokemon? I mean really, If he onl depended on them only, the show will get boring and repetitive.

 

[A Concerned Solomon]

Bayleef also one-shotted a league Houndoom by picking it up and smashing it against the ground. Which, while not as impressive as the beam spam Bulby fires off at will, is still pretty cool.

 

[Hellion]

Can't Ash depend on what he have now instead of depending on his Kanto Pokemon? I mean really, If he onl depended on them only, the show will get boring and repetitive.

QFT. Charizard coming back would be bad writing, especially with all the work the writers have done in fleshing out Monferno-Infernape's story. I find it boring that almost everytime Ash has an important battle (i,e, more important then a regionnal gym), he almost always seems to fall back on the same 3-4 pokemon and it's getting old. Also, I agree with Ryuutakesh, the pokemon are as strong as the writers allow them to be... they'll win any battle if it serves the plot.

 

[Yoshi-san]

QFT. Charizard coming back would be bad writing, especially with all the work the writers have done in fleshing out Monferno-Infernape's story. I find it boring that almost everytime Ash has an important battle (i,e, more important then a regionnal gym), he almost always seems to fall back on the same 3-4 pokemon and it's getting old. Also, I agree with Ryuutakesh, the pokemon are as strong as the writers allow them to be... they'll win any battle if it serves the plot.

"Screw The Rules, I Have Plot!" is just bad writing altogether.

 

[Dorothy]

I don't think Ash is going to the Elite 4. Why those Pokemon aren't there, I dunno.

 

[Hellion]

"Screw The Rules, I Have Plot!" is just bad writing altogether.

It really depends... take for example the pastoria and canalave gym battles as example of plot-driven battles. In Pastoria, the writers didn't care about rule or about "realistically" depicting pokemon battles. They wanted to make a battle that showed Buizel really becoming a member of Ash's team and starting to bond with Ash's other pokemon as oppose to just be a loner. So , normally, a floatzel vs buizel match would almost always result in victory for the Floatzel and pikachu and turtwig would have owned the rest of Crasher Wake's pokemon... but they made buizel improvise an ice aqua jet and high five pikachu... all and all, it's a plot-driven battle that what still a good battle, you didn't feel cheated. That battle defied logic but worked pretty well as an episode.

On the other end of the spectrum... Canalave Gym. Plot-driven battle that whose sole purpose was to give Gliscor a win... So the writers make him learn a fire type move two episodes beforehand, than show you in a battle with Barry that Gliscor cannot defeat a Roserade, but can mysteriously defeat a gym leader's Bastiodon... all and all it's a plot-driven battle that wasn't a good battle, you did feel cheated and it didn't work well as an episode...

So saying that the writers can make any pokemon win depending on the plot doesn't necessarily equate bad writing, though it sometimes does, at least in my opinion

 

[peno]

Bulbasaur has been in tons of battles in the anime, both major battles and in fillers against random trainers. Just because Bayleef is evolved doesn't make it *any* stronger than Bulbasaur was. Bayleef has what, two Gym battle victories against a Spinarak and a Poliwrath?

Sorry, but yes, the pure fact Bayleef is evolved make her stronger than poor Bulbasaur, who is now Ash's weakest Grass type. The fact Bulbasaur was used more than Bayleef doesn't make him stronger. If anything, then it makes bad writing in Johto more apparent.

And stop this BS about Squirtle being weak. It may not be as strong as Bulbasaur/Charizard are, but Squirtle is used as Ash's powerhouse and it is definitely stronger than Totodile and Kingler. Buizel might surpass it if it evolves and Corphish was probably almost at its level.

Yes, Squrtle is stronger than Totodile, that much I'll give you. But sorry, Kingler is Ash's strongest Water type. And Buizel already overpowered both Corphish and Squirtle even without evolution. Squirle is not used as powerhouse. Yes, he has some DEM wins, but that doesn't make him powerhouse. And this is valid for Bulbasaur too.

I can't believe you guys try to downplay Ash's Kanto Pokemon.

I can't believe you still try to highplay Ash's Kanto Pokémon, even though you were proven wrong.

It really depends... take for example the pastoria and canalave gym battles as example of plot-driven battles. In Pastoria, the writers didn't care about rule or about "realistically" depicting pokemon battles. They wanted to make a battle that showed Buizel really becoming a member of Ash's team and starting to bond with Ash's other pokemon as oppose to just be a loner. So , normally, a floatzel vs buizel match would almost always result in victory for the Floatzel and pikachu and turtwig would have owned the rest of Crasher Wake's pokemon... but they made buizel improvise an ice aqua jet and high five pikachu... all and all, it's a plot-driven battle that what still a good battle, you didn't feel cheated. That battle defied logic but worked pretty well as an episode.

On the other end of the spectrum... Canalave Gym. Plot-driven battle that whose sole purpose was to give Gliscor a win... So the writers make him learn a fire type move two episodes beforehand, than show you in a battle with Barry that Gliscor cannot defeat a Roserade, but can mysteriously defeat a gym leader's Bastiodon... all and all it's a plot-driven battle that wasn't a good battle, you did feel cheated and it didn't work well as an episode...

Sorry, but that's your exaggeration depending on your liking and disliking to these Pokémon. I never felt cheated by strong and evolved Gliscor to take down equally evolved, strong and already weakened Bastiodon.
But I felt as cheated by Pastoria Gym battle as I allways felt when unevolved form beat its evolved form. That particular battle would have been much better plot-writen if Buizel would have lost and then Pikachu would have beat Floatzel for Buizel to prove their friendship.

 

[Cybersai]

peno, you're being ridiculous. Bayleef being evolved does not make it stronger than Bulbasaur. Ash's Bulbasaur has had a tremendous amount of battles, (even though it wasn't used in many Gyms, it was used in a hell of a lot of fillers against regular trainers), and is extremely reliable.

Kingler is strong, but we haven't seen it in action in years, so its hard to tell what it is now. Ash's Squirtle was the star of its Johto league match, as well as beating Brandon's Ninjask.

The reason the writers keep bringing Ash's Kanto Pokemon back is for these reasons:

1) It's for long-term fans of the show who started in Kanto. Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard were fan-favorites that people love and cherish from their childhood youth.

2) Ash's "original team," gets fanboy treatment, since they are the originals.

3) The Kanto starters in general are popular, worldwide they're still the best known. Ask an average person what an Infernape is, and they might not know what you're talking about. Ask them about Charizard, and they'll remember what you're talking about.

4) Ash's Johto Pokemon were viewed as inferior to the Kanto starters back when Johto was airing. Once Hoenn started, it became even worse for them as the Hoenn team actually started evolving. Now in Sinnoh, they look worse than they ever had before.


If you have a Charizard and an Infernape, what the hell is a pipsqueak Cyndaquil going to do? The bad writing of Johto destroyed Ash's Johto team, and now they look like bottom of the barrel material.

 

[Trainer Yusuf]

peno, you're being ridiculous. Bayleef being evolved does not make it stronger than Bulbasaur. Ash's Bulbasaur has had a tremendous amount of battles, (even though it wasn't used in many Gyms, it was used in a hell of a lot of fillers against regular trainers), and is extremely reliable.

Kingler is strong, but we haven't seen it in action in years, so its hard to tell what it is now. Ash's Squirtle was the star of its Johto league match, as well as beating Brandon's Ninjask.

The reason the writers keep bringing Ash's Kanto Pokemon back is for these reasons:

1) It's for long-term fans of the show who started in Kanto. Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard were fan-favorites that people love and cherish from their childhood youth.

2) Ash's "original team," gets fanboy treatment, since they are the originals.

3) The Kanto starters in general are popular, worldwide they're still the best known. Ask an average person what an Infernape is, and they might not know what you're talking about. Ask them about Charizard, and they'll remember what you're talking about.

4) Ash's Johto Pokemon were viewed as inferior to the Kanto starters back when Johto was airing. Once Hoenn started, it became even worse for them as the Hoenn team actually started evolving. Now in Sinnoh, they look worse than they ever had before.


If you have a Charizard and an Infernape, what the hell is a pipsqueak Cyndaquil going to do? The bad writing of Johto destroyed Ash's Johto team, and now they look like bottom of the barrel material.

They can always redeem themselves... But I guess you don't believe in such thing because:

Of course its been nearly 400 since the Johto starters/Noctowl have been used in battle, but I don't really care about them.

"Screw The Rules, I Have Plot!" is just bad writing altogether.

Sadly, that was the main thing Pokémon continues on doing since it's beginning. Remember 'Aim For Horn'? Or the countless times Pikachu thunderbolted Ground-types?

 

[Aladar]

Bulbasaur weaker than Bayleef? Excuse me, I've never thought the Johto team were weak or something but Bulbasaur took down a Meganium in the Johto League, remember? And he had already battled another Pokemon before that.

Plus, I do prefer evolved Pokemon but Bulba was shown that he was well past the evo-level in early Kanto- he could have been an Ivysaur now, even a Venusaur.

 

[Ash6K]

Unfortunately, I do agree that so far, Ash's Johto starters + Noctowl are his weakest pokemon out of Ash's 22 on hand pokemon + Charizard and Squirtle (24 total).

However, I would think the Johto team can shine as a sidekick team for the Sinnoh team during the league. They can show that they're stronger than before and do something to help Ash out. Of course, if we're going by the opening, pokemon like Donphan, Glalie, Snorlax, and Corphish can be the strong reserves to help Ash out as well while pokemon like Torkoal and Muk can have more redemption time since they were pretty neglected.

If I were to guess what comes after the league, I hope for a BF, then the E4. There, we can have more Johto development with some Sinnoh development (i.e. mainly a Gible evo?).

Then when it comes time for the E4 (if Ash does challenge the Sinnoh E4), I suspect he'll use the remaining 20 pokemon to battle (Kanto, AG, reserves, and Sinnoh basically). Which makes sense since the E4, collectively, have 20 pokemon and so each pokemon can go up against one of the E4's. And since the Kanto, AG, reserves, and Sinnoh pokemon are all pretty strong pokemon, it would be a cool way for Ash to use them all in these intense battles.

Afterwards of course would be vs. Cynthia which Ash can use any pokemon that will help him win which could be virtually any combination of Ash's strong pokemon you could make. Imo, the evolved pokemon would probably be the most likely to battle.

 

[Hellion]

Sorry, but that's your exaggeration depending on your liking and disliking to these Pokémon. I never felt cheated by strong and evolved Gliscor to take down equally evolved, strong and already weakened Bastiodon.
But I felt as cheated by Pastoria Gym battle as I allways felt when unevolved form beat its evolved form. That particular battle would have been much better plot-writen if Buizel would have lost and then Pikachu would have beat Floatzel for Buizel to prove their friendship.

Not really, sure I wasn't Gliscor's biggest fan but when it's never beaten any pokemon, has never won a single pokemon and all of a sudden beats a gym leader's strongest pokemon... DEM. I think the writers should have made Gliscor beat bronzor with fire fang and x-scissor and put up a good fight and lose to steelix and have chimchar defeat steelix and bastiodon. I'm not saying Gliscor never should have been a part of that battle, I'm just saying the writers should have used this battle to show progression by having Gliscor defeat one of the gym leader's weaker pokemon instead of having it beweak before and after that battle, yet randomly super strong for that battle alone... bad writing

Buizel didn't defeat Floatzel alone, he had the help of pikachu (they high fived to exchange their places in the battle)... that defeat wasn't all Buizel, it was a team effort, which was the point of the entire episode... good writing

Plus, trying to accuse me of bias and then right after admitting you're own bias towards unevolved pokemon sort of dilutes your point...