Review M17: Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction

[The Infidel]

At the end of the day guys, does it really matter that much what music is used? @Dogasu; I'm not sure if your Japanese or just an English speaking guy living in Japan, but it is clear that you watch it in Japanese, and I'd assume because you live in Japan and they aren't great with English that you can speak/understand Japanese, and therefore can understand the anime in the original Japanese? If I'm wrong about any of this so far please feel free to correct me.

Why get so worked up about the fact that when this product is then sent overseas, it's altered slightly to make it more appealing to the outside target audience?
My family is Italian, my nan says Pizza Hut pizza isn't real pizza, it's not authentic. But she doesn't get worked up about people not having pure Italian pizza, and instead having an Americanized version. Heck most of the Chinese food we eat isn't what they actually eat in China, I don't see any Chinese people complain that we don't consume the authentic version.

At the end of the day, Pokemon is a product like any other, and all products are altered slightly when they enter a new market to appeal to that market. Lots of singers translate their songs from their native language into English (or in some cases into Spanish) and a lot of the time it's not a direct translation. Pokemon is just being adapted slightly to appeal to a wider audience, so that rather than being a Japanese franchise, it's a global international franchise!

 

[Ryu Taylor]

At the end of the day guys, does it really matter that much what music is used? @Dogasu; I'm not sure if your Japanese or just an English speaking guy living in Japan, but it is clear that you watch it in Japanese, and I'd assume because you live in Japan and they aren't great with English that you can speak/understand Japanese, and therefore can understand the anime in the original Japanese? If I'm wrong about any of this so far please feel free to correct me.

Why get so worked up about the fact that when this product is then sent overseas, it's altered slightly to make it more appealing to the outside target audience?
My family is Italian, my nan says Pizza Hut pizza isn't real pizza, it's not authentic. But she doesn't get worked up about people not having pure Italian pizza, and instead having an Americanized version. Heck most of the Chinese food we eat isn't what they actually eat in China, I don't see any Chinese people complain that we don't consume the authentic version.

At the end of the day, Pokemon is a product like any other, and all products are altered slightly when they enter a new market to appeal to that market. Lots of singers translate their songs from their native language into English (or in some cases into Spanish) and a lot of the time it's not a direct translation. Pokemon is just being adapted slightly to appeal to a wider audience, so that rather than being a Japanese franchise, it's a global international franchise!

Well said! Very well said!

 

[Ryu Taylor]

I'm sure there are more than a few Simpsons fans at TPCI.

That or Muppets fans.

 

[Dogasu]

@Yoshi1001
I wasn't disputing that some people like some music more than others. I was disputing the idea that you, 4Kids, TPCI, and all the other shitty dubbing companies who replaced background music have put forth over the years about the need to replace background music because it "doesn't resonate with Western audiences."

Let me try to put this another way.

Have you not noticed how pretty much every non-Pokemon dub out there for the past, say, ten years or so hasn't touched the Japanese soundtrack? Nobody creates dub-only background music anymore. Even redubs of shows that used to have replacement soundtracks - shows like Dragon Ball Z, and Sailor Moon, and One Piece - are now released with 100% of their background music intact. In fact, some of these companies even use the "we're not replacing the Japanese music anymore!" as a selling point for their new dubs. For shows with soundtracks that supposedly "doesn't resonate with Western audiences."

So what happened in the last ten years? Did the number of Westerners willing to compose background music for terrible dubs go down? Did Westerners suddenly gain the ability to stomach Japanese music over that time? Did our ears evolve, somehow?

Of course not. What happened is that Westerners have always been able to resonate with Japanese music. It's never been an East vs. West thing. No, what really happened is that dubbing companies changed the music for mostly financial reasons and then tried to explain it away by telling their fans that they had to because the Japanese score just wouldn't work for Americans. They did it because they have to, not because they want to. And the sad thing is is that people actually believed them.

Why did dubbing companies make up this bullshit story in the first place, you might ask? Because telling your fans that you're changing the music "so our fans can enjoy the show more" sounds a hell of a lot better than telling them "we did it for the money."

@Azuro
It's clear that you don't care about the music in this series. You make comments like "At the end of the day guys, does it really matter that much what music is used?" and "But the music itself doesn't really alter the experience" and it's obvious that the music is a complete non-issue for you.

That's your perrogative.

But for a lot of us the music is a big deal. Some of us do care. Some of us listen to his music nearly everyday. Some of us buy the CDs collecting the Japanese music Some of our memories of the show are directly tied to whatever piece of music is being played at any given point. For a lot of us the music is a huge part of the series.

Some people care very much about something that you, personally, don't care about very much. And that's fine! But I think the attitude that "well *I* don't care so why should anybody else?" is a bit crap.



But your food analogy is pretty spot-on, though. The Pokemon dub is like the Americanized versions of food that people from other countries! Some folks like it just fine but most of the people who've had the real thing will tell you that the original is way, way better.

 

[The Infidel]

@Yoshi1001
I wasn't disputing that some people like some music more than others. I was disputing the idea that you, 4Kids, TPCI, and all the other shitty dubbing companies who replaced background music have put forth over the years about the need to replace background music because it "doesn't resonate with Western audiences."

Let me try to put this another way.

Have you not noticed how pretty much every non-Pokemon dub out there for the past, say, ten years or so hasn't touched the Japanese soundtrack? Nobody creates dub-only background music anymore. Even redubs of shows that used to have replacement soundtracks - shows like Dragon Ball Z, and Sailor Moon, and One Piece - are now released with 100% of their background music intact. In fact, some of these companies even use the "we're not replacing the Japanese music anymore!" as a selling point for their new dubs. For shows with soundtracks that supposedly "doesn't resonate with Western audiences."

So what happened in the last ten years? Did the number of Westerners willing to compose background music for terrible dubs go down? Did Westerners suddenly gain the ability to stomach Japanese music over that time? Did our ears evolve, somehow?

Of course not. What happened is that Westerners have always been able to resonate with Japanese music. It's never been an East vs. West thing. No, what really happened is that dubbing companies changed the music for mostly financial reasons and then tried to explain it away by telling their fans that they had to because the Japanese score just wouldn't work for Americans. They did it because they have to, not because they want to. And the sad thing is is that people actually believed them.

Why did dubbing companies make up this bullshit story in the first place, you might ask? Because telling your fans that you're changing the music "so our fans can enjoy the show more" sounds a hell of a lot better than telling them "we did it for the money."

@Azuro
It's clear that you don't care about the music in this series. You make comments like "At the end of the day guys, does it really matter that much what music is used?" and "But the music itself doesn't really alter the experience" and it's obvious that the music is a complete non-issue for you.

That's your perrogative.

But for a lot of us the music is a big deal. Some of us do care. Some of us listen to his music nearly everyday. Some of us buy the CDs collecting the Japanese music Some of our memories of the show are directly tied to whatever piece of music is being played at any given point. For a lot of us the music is a huge part of the series.

Some people care very much about something that you, personally, don't care about very much. And that's fine! But I think the attitude that "well *I* don't care so why should anybody else?" is a bit crap.



But your food analogy is pretty spot-on, though. The Pokemon dub is like the Americanized versions of food that people from other countries! Some folks like it just fine but most of the people who've had the real thing will tell you that the original is way, way better.

To continue my food example as you seem to approve of it, if you want authentic Italian pizza, would you go to a restaurant that sells authentic italian pizza, or would you go and picket Pizza hut, and launch a campaign for pizza hut to stop being americanized and sell the authentic version? Which seems like the more likely option you would follow.

You have the Japanese original you love, and that's great. I know what its like to have something that you cherish. But the fact that when its sent abroad and dubbed, surely doesn't effect you, or impact your enjoyment of the original does it?

I don't mean this in a combative way, I'm just genuinely curious, as to why you care, what version people in America and Europe consume, when both are available to you, doesn't really effect you.

If it was announced that the dubbing companies were going to be put in charge of the main unedited show, I'd understand your pain/upset, but right now Im at a loss as to understand why. It feels like you assume Japanese is the best, and therefore everyone must have that version. Why can't we celebrate diversity and have both?

 

[Dogasu]

You'd have a point if the Japanese version was actually sold in the U.S. alongside the English version. But it isn't.



(also, yes, the English dub has very much had an effect on the Japanese original over the years)

 

[Yoshi1001]

Even redubs of shows that used to have replacement soundtracks - shows like Dragon Ball Z, and Sailor Moon, and One Piece - are now released with 100% of their background music intact. In fact, some of these companies even use the "we're not replacing the Japanese music anymore!" as a selling point for their new dubs. For shows with soundtracks that supposedly "doesn't resonate with Western audiences."

The point being (at least in part I assume) that they want to appeal to hardcore fans of the series (and probably anime in general) who would be more interested in the product as a result. That's definitely a smaller percentage with Pokemon, which gets sold (still to this day) to a broader audience. It'd be a nice-to-have feature, but I'm not sure if enough of the Pokemon market would see it as an incentive to pick it up to justify including it. I'm not completely discounting your argument, but I think the economics of scale are different between the series-having the original soundtrack is just more economically valuable for some series than it is for Pokemon.

Did Westerners suddenly gain the ability to stomach Japanese music over that time? Did our ears evolve, somehow?

Of course not.

Actually, I'd say there is some truth to the idea that western culture (or at least a segment of it) has become more amenable. Over the last few decades, I do think that an increased presence of anime in western outlets has helped create a market for this style of entertainment, including its music. This is evidenced (in part) by the large number of anime conventions held each year. I'm willing to bet that a fair number of the folks that go to those (including myself-though I mostly attend to cover Pokemon-related aspects as I only occasionally watch other anime) got started with one of the more mass-market shows and eventually worked their way towards the more obscure ones. How does this fit into the discussion of music replacement? I'm not entirely sure, but I did want to point out that there may be some value to the larger industry in having shows that are more broadly aimed.

What happened is that Westerners have always been able to resonate with Japanese music.

In my opinion, a more accurate statement would be that westerners have always been able to resonate with some Japanese music-it's kind of a hit-or-miss thing where some things work and other things don't, and as I said earlier the games may have a better "batting average" so-to-speak. Granted, that's a possibility even when the composer and the audience have more similar backgrounds, but I'm not opposed to the dub process trying to improve it by swapping things out, even if they don't always succeed.

(also, yes, the English dub has very much had an effect on the Japanese original over the years)

That's what happens with creative works. Once the work is exposed to an audience, that relationship affects future iterations of the product. You can argue that it should be closer to what it originally was, but the only way to eliminate the influence would be to stop showing it to the west entirely, which I don't think would be a positive outcome.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

What happened is that Westerners have always been able to resonate with Japanese music.

In my opinion, a more accurate statement would be that westerners have always been able to resonate with some Japanese music-it's kind of a hit-or-miss thing where some things work and other things don't, and as I said earlier the games may have a better "batting average" so-to-speak. Granted, that's a possibility even when the composer and the audience have more similar backgrounds, but I'm not opposed to the dub process trying to improve it by swapping things out, even if they don't always succeed.

Actually, I'll have to concede that first part to Dogasu. Music is music, no matter who composes it. And so, it's up to the individual to decide which is better. In that regard is where Yoshi1001 has a point. I'll share a personal example: the first movie's soundtrack. It's a rare case where I prefer the Japanese soundtrack over the dub (whereas I usually think both are equally good), but there's exactly one instance in that movie where I thought the dub trumped the original soundtrack: in the Japanese film, when this played over the scene where Mewtwo's Pokeballs were capturing everyone's Pokemon. I personally couldn't take that scene seriously when that was playing. Not only that, but a friend I was showing the movie to started chuckling a little bit. Usage is what matters to me, which is why I always thought this was the better track for that scene.

 

[Dogasu]

The point being (at least in part I assume) that they want to appeal to hardcore fans of the series (and probably anime in general) who would be more interested in the product as a result.

No, the point is that replacing background music is seen as an outdated practice that Japanese animation fans in general just don't put up with anymore. You don't need American-made background music for your show to be a mainstream hit. The idea that there ever was a time when that was true is pure fiction.

it's kind of a hit-or-miss thing where some things work and other things don't, and as I said earlier the games may have a better "batting average" so-to-speak

Your radio station anecdote isn't proof of anything. A statistically insignificant sample of Pokemon fans (not animation fans, not Japanese animation fans, but Pokemon fans, specifically) liking some music over other does not prove that "Japanese music is a problem that Western localizations have to fix."

A better way to prove your point would be to gather all the comments people have made about the soundtracks to Movies 4 - 16 over the years and find all the people who think that 4Kids / TPCI should had replaced the music in those films because the Japanese soundtrack just "didn't work" for them. You're probably not going to find too many, I suspect, because that's not really a conversation that people have.

the first movie's soundtrack. It's a rare case where I prefer the Japanese soundtrack over the dub (whereas I usually think both are equally good), but there's exactly one instance in that movie where I thought the dub trumped the original soundtrack: in the Japanese film, when this played over the scene where Mewtwo's Pokeballs were capturing everyone's Pokemon. I personally couldn't take that scene seriously when that was playing.

And, on the other hand, I can't imagine any other piece of music playing for that scene. In fact I didn't even have to click on the link to know which song you were talking about because the music and that scene exist together in my mind.

 

[Mareepy]

And to add a point, like what Dogasu said, there never existed a time where both version are sold in Western*. You guys said the Japanese music are hit or miss for weterners, but you do realize the Dub music is hit or miss too? People's taste vary, made by a westerner does not mean it fit the taste of westerners more. If TCPI put both on sale, the sales number will talk, by then we will know which one westerners like more.

So as of now, the westerners prefer dub music is moot because they never got the true taste of the other version.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

And to add a point, like what Dogasu said, there never existed a time where both version are sold in Japan. You guys said the Japanese music are hit or miss for weterners, but you do realize the Dub music is hit or miss too? People's taste vary, made by a westerner does not mean it fit the taste of westerners more. If TCPI put both on sale, the sales number will talk, by then we will know which one westerners like more.

So as of now, the westerners prefer dub music is moot because they never got the true taste of the other version.

I know the dub music can also be hit or miss, which is why there are cases I've sided against it, such as all but one track from the first movie. I haven't yet heard a track from either version of Pokemon anime lore that I flat-out hated, but there were lots of cases where I thought "this could've been better." I just wouldn't judge a dub as being fatally harmed because it got a music change.

 

[Dogasu]

But I would because I don't see background music as something that you can just swap out for something else. For me and other fans like me watching a scene with music other than the one the show's creators chose for it just makes the whole thing not work. You don't feel that way and that's fine but a lot of us care very much about what song is playing at what moment.

One thing TPCI / Viz could do to really help this is to include two English audio tracks on the DVD - an English dub track with the dub replacement music and that same English dub track with the original Japanese music instead. If American fans could watch the Diancie movie with Miyazaki Shinji's soundtrack without having to import expensive Japanese Blu-rays and watching it in a language they don't understand without subtitles then that would help things here tremendously.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

One thing TPCI / Viz could do to really help this is to include two English audio tracks on the DVD - an English dub track with the dub replacement music and that same English dub track with the original Japanese music instead. If American fans could watch the Diancie movie with Miyazaki Shinji's soundtrack without having to import expensive Japanese Blu-rays and watching it in a language they don't understand without subtitles then that would help things here tremendously.

That'd be my dream DVD/Blu-ray, too, actually. But also for it to have an option to interchange all those options (Japanese language with dub music, English language with original music, Japanese language and Japanese music, dub with dub music, etc.) like the DBZ releases had.

 

[Dogasu]

Well it would need the Japanese language track too, but Viz hasn't lifted a finger to get the Japanese version released in the U.S. in the nearly two decades the franchise has been alive so I was trying to be realistic.

The two dub tracks option *is* something that's entirely feasible, however.


(also none of DBZ's releases had a "Japanese voices with English dub music" track on it. Also FUNimation stopped including the dub music in their releases altogether years ago)

 

[Ryu Taylor]

(I have recently gotten around to seeing the film in Japanese, and I'd say it's of even quality to the dub). I don't know; music and graphical quality never harmed my enjoyment of anything.

Too generous, me from last month (though it usually takes more than one viewing for me to get a true opinion together). I guess I was just energetic when I posted that comment, because, looking back (and upon the rewatch I just did), the original OST is a snoozefest at best, and at worst (as is the case of this track), noise. This is a rare case where a soundtrack really did harm the otherwise good movie it went with. Ed Goldfarb saved this movie for me. Kudos, sir.

Also FUNimation stopped including the dub music in their releases altogether years ago)

Sure took me a while to notice this. I'm kinda disappointed in FUNimation for that. Such a waste of Bruce Faulconer's work...