• Another scrumptious episode of Bulbacast has been uploaded to YouTube. Watch it here. I hope you don't feel desserted after watching this one.
  • Grookey, Scorbunny or Sobble, which one do you love most? Want to show your support with a cool banner, check out the info here!

Mafia Philosophy

Zexy

Fire Chicken
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reaction score
6,312
The point here is that I believe the player should have that information, they need to know what the worst outcome can be if it is game-ending after today.
 

AussieEevee

White Ranger, Dino Power!
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
6,768
Reaction score
2,089
The point here is that I believe the player should have that information, they need to know what the worst outcome can be if it is game-ending after today.
That's kinda my point. -Lo announcements give players mod-confirmed information. The hosting guides themselves say that mods should avoid giving mod-confirmed information. And I completely agree with it.

Instead, players should simply be told the game can end soon, and figure the rest out for themselves.
 

Zexy

Fire Chicken
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reaction score
6,312
That's kinda my point. -Lo announcements give players mod-confirmed information. The hosting guides themselves say that mods should avoid giving mod-confirmed information. And I completely agree with it.

Instead, players should simply be told the game can end soon, and figure the rest out for themselves.
But it's the kind of information I believe should be given to the town for the sake of fairness. They should have the right to know if they can safely No Lynch at any time just like in those first old simple open setup games, that's how I believe the game is supposed to be played.
 

Lone_Garurumon

Ya did good
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
7,916
Reaction score
4,722
So, people intended to mention it here when the game was over, but it looks like no-one has, so it's question time!

Do you think that vote modifiers (e.g. Hated, Double Voter, etc.) should be shown in the vote tallies or not?

Personally I can understand the argument from both sides. On one hand, showing those modifiers practically host-confirms a player's role right off the bat, and since vote modifiers are rare for mafia team, you've basically just host-confirmed someone's alignment. On the other hand, by not showing those modifiers, you're effectively lying to your players by telling them game relevant information that you know to be false, very easily getting the game called as bastard for it, and causing the players to make bad outcomes that they would've tried to avoid if they knew.

Given that I've never actually hosted a game where all rulings were determined by me, I have no idea which way I'd actually go if I included such roles, but I'm interested to see peoples' thoughts on it.
 

Max1996

Soloist Pokémon
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
29,015
Reaction score
25,038
So, people intended to mention it here when the game was over, but it looks like no-one has, so it's question time!

Do you think that vote modifiers (e.g. Hated, Double Voter, etc.) should be shown in the vote tallies or not?

Personally I can understand the argument from both sides. On one hand, showing those modifiers practically host-confirms a player's role right off the bat, and since vote modifiers are rare for mafia team, you've basically just host-confirmed someone's alignment. On the other hand, by not showing those modifiers, you're effectively lying to your players by telling them game relevant information that you know to be false, very easily getting the game called as bastard for it, and causing the players to make bad outcomes that they would've tried to avoid if they knew.

Given that I've never actually hosted a game where all rulings were determined by me, I have no idea which way I'd actually go if I included such roles, but I'm interested to see peoples' thoughts on it.
How about stating it's there, but not who has it?
 

CherubCookie

Cookie Monster
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
367
Reaction score
178
I don't really like vote modifiers as individual roles, personally. The games I've seen them in have had 1-2x usage and had to be specially activated.

I'd support the idea of them being counted in the list but not showing which user had the modification.
 

Geigengeist

Ghostly Strings
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Messages
1,474
Reaction score
848
How about stating it's there, but not who has it?
I'd support the idea of them being counted in the list but not showing which user had the modification.
That doesn't matter.
Vote counts don't generally show individual voting power regardless, and having an extra vote show up is still pretty revealing. Say 3 players vote for X, and the next count shows 4 votes on them. It's now clearly shown that a vote modifying role is in play, and it's one of those 4 players. There are multiple situations (mafia/masons/paired roles being on the vote and knowing who can't be the cause, one or more of the voters having been rolechecked/otherwise confirmed rolewise, etc) where pretty much outs who/what the source of the extra vote is. Personally, however, I think it's a decent form of balance for the role tbh, as it means they can't just use their extra voting power too freely without likely being outed, but I can understand a host not wanting to influence the game that directly.

I don't really like vote modifiers as individual roles, personally. The games I've seen them in have had 1-2x usage and had to be specially activated.
This isn't a bad idea, really. I like it being passively active and full, since it gives the player more pressure to be goddamn careful with their votes, but limits and requiring specific activation also encourages using the ability more carefully.
 

AussieEevee

White Ranger, Dino Power!
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
6,768
Reaction score
2,089
Do you think that vote modifiers (e.g. Hated, Double Voter, etc.) should be shown in the vote tallies or not?
Depends on the game mode. Bastard games, no. Non-bastard, Yes.

My definition of a bastard game is when something crucial is hidden from the players. Hiding votes in the vote tally, even if those votes were caused by a double voter or secret voter, is bastard.

That said, I don't think you need to acknowledge which player caused the additional vote, as that would be giving too much away.

Kinda like

Darthwolf 3: AussieEevee, Elieson

Would be acceptable in my opinion. If players query it, just say that you checked and its correct.
 

Zexy

Fire Chicken
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reaction score
6,312
On the other hand, by not showing those modifiers, you're effectively lying to your players by telling them game relevant information that you know to be false, very easily getting the game called as bastard for it, and causing the players to make bad outcomes that they would've tried to avoid if they knew.
That's not how I look at it. When I post a vote count as a host, I show the amount of people voting for a player, not the amount of votes put on a player. So it's not a lie and not bastard, it's just that most players assume that each player has one vote because that's how it regularly works. This is how HYPER-MAJORITY would get decided as well, especially in some games with lots of strange voting powers (Baccano! comes to mind first). An interesting case that I had to debate over with ME was when a Voteless Jester could decide HYPER-MAJORITY or not by whether they'd vote or not, even though the vote itself is worth 0.

Keep in mind the usage of wording like "With X players alive, Y are needed for HYPER-MAJORITY." not "Y votes", just Y players.
 

DarthWolf

Sith Puppy
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Messages
3,296
Reaction score
1,979
Darthwolf 3: AussieEevee, Elieson
Why am I being voted?!:eek::p

I like the way of Zexy, counting players instead of votes.
If you do go by votes however, the way AE shows it is the best imo. No need to lie and players need to wait for a vote count (often multiple) to check which player has the modifier. It doesn't have to confirm their alignment.
 

Elementar

The Paragon of Torna
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
5,828
Reaction score
2,961
I think it's good for a player with an active voting role to try and work around the votals and not get caught. I usually show them.
 

Zexy

Fire Chicken
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reaction score
6,312
I think it's good for a player with an active voting role to try and work around the votals and not get caught. I usually show them.
But more likely than not, thye don't want to work around the votals. Instead they want to use them to confirm themselves. So such a way to show VC can be very pro-town in some setups.
 

Zexy

Fire Chicken
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reaction score
6,312
Agreed. That's why the method I suggested doesn't show which player has the modifier.
It is still very easy to cheat around that system. If someone claims Voteless, you just have them vote someone alone and see if it will show 0.
If someone claims Hated, you just have them let be and see if it will show 1.
and so on...
 

AussieEevee

White Ranger, Dino Power!
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
6,768
Reaction score
2,089
to be fair though... those are modifiers and can apply to any faction.voteless often goes with jester
 

SoaringDylan

The Sobbley Trainer
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
4,417
Reaction score
2,166
In my opinion they should show.

The argument of double voters most often being town is valid, since town usually has the most players so the most chance of having a double voting role.
However, that only means it's easier for mafia to fool town once they get the power.
It's bad to assume alignment with any given role, for example the quadruple voter I had as mafia a while ago or PR giver as tosn in WvM.
 

Zexy

Fire Chicken
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reaction score
6,312
The argument of double voters most often being town is valid, since town usually has the most players so the most chance of having a double voting role.
I don't think that's the real reason Double Voters are most often town. By that argument, Roleblocker should've been most often town too (since it is frequent enough in the town and the argument of town having most players still/always applies), but it's certainly a mafia staple. This is because setups are not made by RNG (with some exceptions like Chaos/Bonanza etc.) It is the host that decides if a role should be town or mafia, and when a regularly town role appears in the mafia there's almost certainly a reason the host put it there, and vice-versa.

On the topic of Mafia Double Voters in particular, there's another major thing you should not forget; Double Voter is a role that gets stronger the more it survives (since your vote matters more when there aren't too many other voters). For mafia in particular this can be too OP, a +1 vote can turn what would be a LYLO into an automatic mafia win.
The only time I remember a Mafia Double Voter proves that in what was one of the most hilarious yet outrageous games I've experienced. I'm talking about Gundam SEED Mafia back in June 2014. It had 4 mafia of which 1 was Double Voter and another was 1x Lynchproof. We made it to "MILO" 10p 6-4, but it was actually an auto mafia win (that the host didn't notice so the game went on), I only did in endgame. The actual biggest possibly salvageable (not always, as it leads to LYSLO for the next two days) would be 11p, and that's a lot for a 4-scum game.
Sorry @FinalArcadia for bringing up that game (it's also the one that had the 1x Fake Copcheck "Santa" I got the idea off for ME VS WE, but it alongside all the other crazy things made it super pro-scum). It might be your "FinalArcadia Can't Balance" Mafia but I had tons of fun in it (even though I was on the chopping block almost every day yet was the only one that got this close to figuring out the team but it was late, I was shouting we should've lynched @HumanDawn and no one listened, THE MEMORIES) and I bet most people at the time did even though the entire town was mad, but it was great to see unfold. So yeah I think hilarious and outrageous fits well that game.
However, that only means it's easier for mafia to fool town once they get the power.
That's not the way to do setups imo, at any time you're hosting something you look at what is good now, not in future games. When you will end up hosting that future game in which you'll give mafia a double voter, you can consider this argument; but it will be then, and by then you should've made a decision on how to show votes, which is something you need to decide now.
It's bad to assume alignment with any given role, for example the quadruple voter I had as mafia a while ago or PR giver as tosn in WvM.
That was indeed a bad call assumption, but this role is different than Double Voter in three major ways; for one, it was related to a Pretend You're Xyzzy black (mafia) card, which should give people a hint. Two, the entire game had a weird assortment of roles that would make one paranoid anyway. And three, it was designed to actually become weaker as the game goes on exactly so it wouldn't lead to such an -YLO I had other roles that were designed to actually do exactly that lol
 

FinalArcadia

♡ lightning in the rain ♡
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
4,693
Reaction score
906
@Zexy
That game is partly why it's taken me so long to try to host again since balancing is the most difficult part for me and that game really exemplified that lol. Doesn't help with balancing that I tend to err on the side of pro-scum. Glad you enjoyed it though! and it was fun to watch over as host, I have to admit
---

Though probably a good time to ask something I've always wanted to: All the hosts in here, what methods do you all have for balancing your games? Do you come up with a rough idea of the roles themselves first and then match them to fitting characters, or do you have the theme/characters and then work off them to create abilities? And after that, how to you determine if it is balanced decently enough?

I always worked around the characters and then wrote down all the abilities on paper to try to see if everything had a "counter" (like a godfather to counter cop, etc), but I'd definitely like to know some better ways to go about things. so that I can maybe get off my lazy butt and finally host again
 
Top