Mafia Philosophy

[Mintaka]

Thanks to @Paperhorse; , we have this interesting article about lurking as a mafia player.

Spoiler

So you've started a game. You say your role is mafia? Well congratulations, you probably just won. But here's a guide to help you win more easily. Always keep in mind, that playing as mafia is a game of waiting. Wait long enough, and the town will kill itself.

1. You don't want to lynch the people you call scum. You want the town to lynch the people you call town. Towns tend to look at successful wagons for scum. If you're not on them, you'll do better.
2. Do not call the strongest members of the town scum, rather pick on weaker but more neutral figures. If you pick on people that are too easy, you will eventually run out of valid scumreads, and if you only pick on the strongest members of the town, it will likely turn on you. Attack the people that can't defend themselves. Newbies are a good choice.
3. Early on, post a lot, and frequently. Most people will subconsciously treat active players as town. Almost nobody will suspect you for this on its own.
4. Call out lurkers. They are easy to lynch, but don't try to lynch them until later in the game. Their wagon will provide good escape later if you need it. Be sure to make this a long-term campaign. If you notice the flow go against your allies or your scum-calls begin to push the lurkers.
5. Outline rough suspicion of your dumbest partner. Do not push their wagon, just list them as neutral-leaning-scum or something to that effect. Meanwhile, defend your other partner from significant attacks. This will separate your team in the minds of the town.
6. Defend the strongest players of the town. Pick one in particular to defend excessively. If you die, this will tie you to them and allow your team to lynch them quickly. As a note, generally, if you build a meta for defending people you will do well in all your games.
7. For lynch on the first day, push the second or third most popular lynch. Do not try to make your wagon fail, but hope that it does. After that, continue to push reads that are less likely to be lynched. If one of your reads becomes a major lynch though, lynch them. Do not back down.
8. If you notice someone acting scummy, and no one else has yet picked up on it, take the opportunity. If you lynch an unexpected person the next day reverts to earlier lynch prospects much of the time. Essentially the town loses a day.
9. Kill the stronger members of the town at night. Nobody analyses night kills anymore, and if they do just bury them under a mountain of WIFOM logic. It actually works.
10. Taper off your posting as you go. Do not suddenly disappear, just gradually reduce your rate of posting. Try to keep large but infrequent posts at first, but later shorter posts will do. You want to appear like you are losing interest in the game. You also want to have an excuse for dodging the nightkills. Living too long being too town will be problematic.
11. Do not fear people who are getting things right. Even if they are right about everything, there will be idiots that refuse to believe well reasoned and logical cases. Don't mistake being caught for being lynched. Stay calm, and it is critical that you do not suddenly change your reads. Don't underestimate the ability of a town to eat itself, or to change off of a correct wagon at the last second. Often you can survive a day or two after you should if you play calmly.
12. Claim vanilla. Do not try to gambit. Conservative is the best way to play scum. If you claim earlier than you need to, you will likely be believed in today's meta. Of course, extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, and in some cases claiming a power role may allow you to live longer than you deserve. But keep in mind 11) you are not always in as bad a position as you think.
13. Attack players that do not know how to defend themselves properly. Start with a case that is factual, but weak. When the player overreacts and digs themselves deeper and deeper, you will have a good wagon to sit on. If it sees lynch, you have lynched someone that everyone agrees deserved it, and if it doesn't you have a plausible distraction from the main lynches.
14. Don't underestimate the power of subtle praise. "That's a great point" and "I didn't notice that" or even "I'm sheeping X, who is obv-town" helps building false confidence in townies. This will make the townie think you are town, and if they turn out to be wrong they get the blame and their confidence is shaken. It is generally good to leave the responsibility for the town's lynches on the town.
15. The town tends to believe that it ought to win. They are wrong, but you can take advantage of this. If someone has been on many of the major wagons, you have just found a free lynch target. Similarly, if there is someone that seems to be causing the town not to succeed, they are a good target. Generally, the mafia should be encouraging the idea that the town is being conned by their leaders.

source

Regardless of wrong/right issue, this was an interesting read.

I'm on the fence about 'killing the strongest figures among town' part. If they are beyond control, it'd be worth killing them before they earn too much trust (getting rid of confirmed townies can be important). But on the other hand, there might be a townie who is actually the core of the problem. After all, one of the strategies for the informational roles (like cop) is to avoid being too trusted - that can lead to them being killed.

 

[ShinyFlareon]

Regarding inactivity as a scumtell...I personally think it's more often a towntell. Being in the mafia, you are a part of a small group of people who are making major decisions and strategizing every night phase, and since there aren't as many roles in the mafia to go around, most mafia roles will have some sort of significant impact. This, from what I see, leads people to think that they are more obligated to be active in the game, especially in PMs, QTs, or Skype chats. And to keep up their illusion of innocence, they post in the thread - after all, it's an effective method of getting someone to dig their own grave, or finding out choice bits of information that could decide who needs to get killed and who can safely live to see another day phase. Mafiosi essentially feel like they have to be active because if they aren't, then the game truly doesn't get anywhere. Even the most inactive game will still have a kill attempt every night.

Townies, on the other hand...well, it's real easy sometimes to feel like you got stuck with a shitty role, or that you just can't seem to find anyone trustworthy enough to form an alliance with. Add on school and work and a whole host of other distractions and even players with very useful roles will essentially feel like the game is not worth their time, or that they won't be missing anything if they don't post or skip using their ability just this once. Life happens, and real life always trumps the forums, but at least remember that you are participating in something and do the polite thing and sub out. There's no brand of shame for asking to leave a game for any reason, even if that reason is that you just got bored. Hell, that's why I eventually subbed out of the Unova Mafia. But at least ask to be subbed out, and don't just abandon the game entirely.

Inactivity breeds inactivity. If no one else is posting, then others are even less inclined to contribute because they simply don't know what to contribute. If everyone is inactive, why should anyone try to be active? There's nothing to read or analyze, no foundation upon which to build a strategy. Randomvoting, though apparently currently in vogue around here, is only exciting for so long, and rarely produces a desirable result. If the current trend is any indication, players have a remarkable ability to identify the cop early on, so perhaps instead of voting for them immediately, try and see what you can get out of engaging them in the thread.

 

[KidBeano]

you will eventually run out of valid scumreads,

"what's a scumread is that a type of RNG because that's the only way to lynch people" said too many War Room members.

I don't think the focus here needs to be on playing as mafia, it needs to be on scumhunting as town. That in turn will make you a better mafia member. I've seen way too many people say "I find them suspicious." and don't say why. They then proceed, when prompted why, to say "Idk, just a gut feeling.". Gut feeling =/= suspicious. Too much emphasis is placed on vote patterns and the like and too little on actual post content/behaviour.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: use logic, not guesswork.

 

[Soulmaster]

I have a question here that I'm not sure if it has been asked before if yes my apologies.

What is better someone not posting at all or someone posting but adding nothing/hindering the discussion?

This is something I've seen a lot being guilty of part of it myself and figure I'd like to see other peoples opinions on it.

 

[Master Mew]

I have a question here that I'm not sure if it has been asked before if yes my apologies.

What is better someone not posting at all or someone posting but adding nothing/hindering the discussion?

This is something I've seen a lot being guilty of part of it myself and figure I'd like to see other peoples opinions on it.

Define, "better?" :XD:

If by better you mean more helpful to your fellow Townies (assuming you are, in fact, a Townie), both are pretty worthless - but not posting at all is, in my opinion, slightly better. You're more likely to get yourself mislynched for "filler posts" than for inactivity. This trend tends to reverse the further you advance toward endgame.

Doesn't really matter, though, being silent and posting hollow filler-posts are pretty much equally unhelpful to the Town.

...

NOW: Zenax suggested to me that I post something I suggested in a game recently here to facilitate discussion...

When someone posts "pre-emptive conditional suspicions" right before the Phase update (i.e. If Newbie341 is about to be lynched, and Trololol14 says, "If Newbie341 flips Mafia, then X is mafia because they said 'etc.'"), how do you read this? Or do you at all?

Pre-emptive suspicion-posts, in Master Mew world (a terrifying corner of my mind I hope none of you will ever see), register as WIFOM generators. And WIFOM generators, in turn, register as roughly 85% scumtells. WIFOM confuses the Town, causes the source of the WIFOM to be dismissed, and almost always benefit the Mafia - thus, I reason, the Town should always try to avoid creating WIFOM.

Once in a while I have a bout of crazy, though, so let me know what you think.

 

[KidBeano]

I have a question here that I'm not sure if it has been asked before if yes my apologies.

What is better someone not posting at all or someone posting but adding nothing/hindering the discussion?

This is something I've seen a lot being guilty of part of it myself and figure I'd like to see other peoples opinions on it.

Define, "better?" :XD:

If by better you mean more helpful to your fellow Townies (assuming you are, in fact, a Townie), both are pretty worthless - but not posting at all is, in my opinion, slightly better. You're more likely to get yourself mislynched for "filler posts" than for inactivity. This trend tends to reverse the further you advance toward endgame.

Doesn't really matter, though, being silent and posting hollow filler-posts are pretty much equally unhelpful to the Town.

...

NOW: Zenax suggested to me that I post something I suggested in a game recently here to facilitate discussion...

When someone posts "pre-emptive conditional suspicions" right before the Phase update (i.e. If Newbie341 is about to be lynched, and Trololol14 says, "If Newbie341 flips Mafia, then X is mafia because they said 'etc.'"), how do you read this? Or do you at all?

Pre-emptive suspicion-posts, in Master Mew world (a terrifying corner of my mind I hope none of you will ever see), register as WIFOM generators. And WIFOM generators, in turn, register as roughly 85% scumtells. WIFOM confuses the Town, causes the source of the WIFOM to be dismissed, and almost always benefit the Mafia - thus, I reason, the Town should always try to avoid creating WIFOM.

Once in a while I have a bout of crazy, though, so let me know what you think.

I don't regard it as a scumtell, just an inexperiencetell/badtell. People who post that usually seem to be under the impression that any person who suspects another town member of being scum is scummy.

No.

The whole point of mafia is that you don't know who your fellow townies are. It's completely reasonable for someone to make a mistake.

Pre-emptive conditions that are TRUE, however, are amazing and should be thought out more often. (if the Watcher watches Person X, and Person X is visited by Person Y who claimed rolecop, you know Person X is clear if Person Y flips mafia. Why would the mafia rolecop investigate his own partner?)

 

[HumanDawn]

Something I've been doing when I refer to players anonymously to others about somebody's role is always refer to them with "them" and "they" instead of "him/her" and "he/she" because it would be a bit informative on who they are. Every little detail counts.

 

[Buoy]

Something I've been doing when I refer to players anonymously to others about somebody's role is always refer to them with "them" and "they" instead of "him/her" and "he/she" because it would be a bit informative on who they are. Every little detail counts.

good job i bet nobody would have thought of that before

 

[HumanDawn]

Something I've been doing when I refer to players anonymously to others about somebody's role is always refer to them with "them" and "they" instead of "him/her" and "he/she" because it would be a bit informative on who they are. Every little detail counts.

good job i bet nobody would have thought of that before

Why, thank you, Buoy!

 

[Master Mew]

Buoy is always so complimentary...

 

[Paperhorse]

Reminder: Please keep all discussions on topic. Thank you.

 

[Stuntology]

My goal is to never be playing more than one game at once. It keeps me focused.

 

[DerMißingno]

KidBeano sparked a logicombat between Master Mew and I about mass claiming.

Geez, what's with the sudden "No massclaiming rule" craze?

By taking away massclaiming, you're taking away a powerful town tool. There's only so far scumhunting can take you.

If you're a mafia member and you're caught off-guard by a fakeclaim, then it's your own fault for not being prepared. The first thing you should do as a mafia member is sort out your claim: can you afford to claim your actual role? If not, what WILL you claim. If nameclaiming is allowed, what character should you claim?

Preparation is key. Massclaiming is only overpowered against a lazy mafia.

Geez, what's with the sudden "No massclaiming rule" craze?

By taking away massclaiming, you're taking away a powerful town tool. There's only so far scumhunting can take you.

If you're a mafia member and you're caught off-guard by a fakeclaim, then it's your own fault for not being prepared. The first thing you should do as a mafia member is sort out your claim: can you afford to claim your actual role? If not, what WILL you claim. If nameclaiming is allowed, what character should you claim?

Preparation is key. Massclaiming is only overpowered against a lazy mafia.

Because it marginalizes the game. It puts the main decision making process in the hands of one or a few select "confirmed" townies that got the role claims, and puts everyone else in follow-the-leader sort of position. It makes the game stupid, especially if it happens early on.

I honestly view it as more of a setup issue - it's not that hard to design the game to not be broken by mass-claims.

I don't think it's really a game breaking issue at all, mafia still has a good chance of winning a game in which mass claims are taken. It can even be beneficial to the mafia if they can get themselves trusted enough to get their hands on the claims. My only problem with it is that I think mafia games are supposed to be about using good logicombat to either trick people if you're mafia or figure out who's trying to trick people if you're town. Having one or two people decide who is mafia based on what claim they submitted is kind of uninteresting in my opinion.

I don't think it's really a game breaking issue at all, mafia still has a good chance of winning a game in which mass claims are taken. It can even be beneficial to the mafia if they can get themselves trusted enough to get their hands on the claims. My only problem with it is that I think mafia games are supposed to be about using good logicombat to either trick people if you're mafia or figure out who's trying to trick people if you're town. Having one or two people decide who is mafia based on what claim they submitted is kind of uninteresting in my opinion.

It's a logical progression, though. The Town determines that someone is, "cleared," which in a closed setup, as most games here are, is often subjective, and that trusted player then communicates to the Town which of the remaining players they trust - as you mentioned, the person receiving claims could easily be mafia themselves, so there's still plenty of logicombat to go around.

It's just another method of scumhunting, and it is far from infallible - I don't particularly care for it, but I don't hate it, either.

It's a logical progression, though. The Town determines that someone is, "cleared," which in a closed setup, as most games here are, is often subjective, and that trusted player then communicates to the Town which of the remaining players they trust - as you mentioned, the person receiving claims could easily be mafia themselves, so there's still plenty of logicombat to go around.

It's just another method of scumhunting, and it is far from infallible - I don't particularly care for it, but I don't hate it, either.

But the problem is that there's not plenty of logicombat to go around though. After the claims are taken people pretty much just sit around and go with what the claim taker has to say. Sometimes they even actively discourage other people from making points in favor of waiting for the claim taker to say something.

Also, if the claim taker is still unsure of who to go after, they'll attack players with passive or unprovable roles. Yeah they may be easier to fake, but they also happen to town players a lot, and if that kind of reasoning is used against you there's really not much you can do to logicombat your way out of it, especially if it's a role that a town considers expendable.

Then of course if you refuse to claim either because you don't trust the person or because you're afraid the above will happen, then you're looked on with suspicion anyway. Mass claims are just bad news. It stops mattering what people say to attack other players or defend themselves and becomes a guessing game about which roles the claim taker thinks are scummy or fake.

We should move this discussion to the Mafia Philosophy thread.

Obvs I'm against mass claiming and will probably outlaw it in any of my future games, if I ever actually make more games with roles since I'm becoming a much bigger fan of small games with few or no power roles. What do you guys think?

 

[FinalArcadia]

I don't like mass-claims one bit.

Particularly in games with masons, they become somewhat of a substitute for more active scumhunting. And worst of all is when somebody DOES refuse to claim, instantly putting a huge target on their back.

Town, mafia, or independent, I know that I don't want to give my claim during a mass claim in most cases, because then the entire game becomes a "follow-the-leader" situation. And then there is the issue of the passive and difficult-to-prove roles, like TheMissingno. said.

Towards the end of a game, I find mass claims a little bit more acceptable, but when somebody tries to initiate it early on (like the case in Oakwood Mafia), it is unnecessary and even at times detrimental.

 

[Master Mew]

Sounds like you guys have more of a problem with way the players handle massclaims than the concept of massclaiming itself. People just need to become more aware of how fallible the strategy can be.

Much of what you're saying can be applied to follow-the-cop as well, but I don't think anyone is advocating for doing away with the role to alleviate that issue.

 

[Buoy]

While I personally think massclaiming is a very boring and mundane way to settle things, I wouldn't make it against the rules of any of my games -- mainly because it's up to the players whether or not they want to do something in-game: it's not my place as a host to tell them what strategies to use, whatever their alignment may be. If you really don't want massclaiming, there's really no point in saying, 'massclaiming is against the rules', because people are going to gather the claims anyway, and it's just going to end up the same -- all you're doing is prolonging the same languorous process instead of getting rid of it entirely. A good way to stop massclaiming is to disallow private communications; sure, they can still massclaim in-thread by everyone stating their roles, but it doesn't really happen that often, and, when it does, it's usually in LYLO, when there are only three players left.

However, that's only what I think about ALLOWING it or not. The concept of massclaims, is, as I've said, boring and mundane. Relying on one person to drag everyone through the game and co-ordinating everybody's actions and stuff is just completely ridiculous: you may as well have the entire town's roles just being assigned to the one person if you're just going to rely on a clear to win the game. I prefer the idea that, sure, people do trust each other with a few claims, but I don't like it when one or two people call all the shots -- Legend of Korra Mafia is the best example, off the top of my head, wherein people who actually worked together in some strange network managed to do a pretty great job of things, all considered, as opposed to the good few games wherein there was a single person doing everything.

I also agree with FinalArcadia in that it can be detrimental for the town in some cases, especially if the clear is pretty aggressive, arrogant, ignorant, unknowledgeable or just plain inexperienced. The last thing anybody needs is for somebody incompetent leading the town, or somebody so convinced of their own opinions, that they'll abuse their power over the town in order to get what they want, such as a lynch on somebody whom they may be completely wrong about, and they can make a really bad job of it if they are not open to others.

Master Mew, follow-the-cop is not really the same thing as massclaiming -- there is far more room to negotiate with follow-the-cop, as there are 'mole' roles that will flip the checks, or sanities, and it's not just one person or two co-ordinating every single thing in the game, either. Follow-the-cop has already been dealt with anyway, with the new influx and threats of strongmen roles and the like that can bypass doc protection in order to stop FTC if it ever arises.

 

[Soulmaster]

I personally think massclaims are fine. But if the host has it so that it would be broken if the claims happened then of course no.

And remember there are masons in every game. It is known as Mafia.

I know in my games, at least ST:TNG I will allow mass claims no this isn't a marketing scheme. But I shan't say more as it would spoil the game.

 

[Master Mew]

I know in my games, at least ST:TNG I will allow mass claims no this isn't a marketing scheme. But I shan't say more as it would spoil the game.

Mass-claims annoy me, but I don't ban them in my games - I prefer a subtle approach: Designing the roles to only confuse everyone even more if there is a mass-claim.

Roles that are, "always Town," for instance, are Independent, or there are two Doctors, or a flavor role that everyone expects to be in the game isn't while an obscure character with a ridiculous role is. Throwing in flavor role from another, similar franchise is a favorite toy of mine as well (including Marvel's "Black Cat" in a Batman mafia, for instance - or a giraffe).

Punish mass-claiming with roles, not rules.

 

[ShinyFlareon]

But doesn't that just make everything unnecessarily complicated? And even then, if you use that approach with multiple games, a counter-pattern will begin to emerge once players learn your hosting style and the alignments you give to certain types of roles.

 

[Master Mew]

But doesn't that just make everything unnecessarily complicated? And even then, if you use that approach with multiple games, a counter-pattern will begin to emerge once players learn your hosting style and the alignments you give to certain types of roles.

And? If my pattern is unpredictability, the only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that massclaims are ineffective in my games.