Mafia Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Endgame - Town/Independent Win

[Buoy]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Since I'm pretty sure most people here know I wouldn't bluff I'd ignore all votes made after I froze. Phoenicks might still be mafia with harpy (forgot who was the one that thought that but it was someone) and only voting her right now because he knows the vote won't count anyway.

a very interesting point. we can prove/disprove this by lynching harpy, as well as proving/disproving some other things (bein deliberately vague ok bear with me).

vote: harpy.

 

[Phoenicks]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

A few more thoughts:

1. If I'm pro-town as scum or town then it's a nulltell.

(2. If you're about to be lynched as a powerful role then you should claim and lynch someone else. Scum will probably kill you but now there is a chance of lynching scum during that phase.)

(3. We should not be defeatists.)

4. Mijz is perfectly able and willing to lie. :3

5. If he's not, let's not be defeatists.

 

[Midorikawa]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Well, excuse me for not knowing the joke vote deadline :I

Right now the only person I'm suspicious of is Noivern due to his flakiness, but I don't know if it's a lack of experience thing.

His way of talking in his posts heavily implies he's not new to mafias therefore its not newbie behavior.

Did you actually bother to read anything I said? I am asking you why you choose to draw the line at one but not the other and you have yet to give me an answer to that.

Have you read what I said? Its the timing and what had happened so far. I don't know how many times you want me to repeat myself.

It's not scummy. You have no idea what they would have done should they not have been called out, and I highly doubt that Neon or Noivern would have been so obvious as to actually deliberately try to lynch Phoenicks outright D1.

Why? How do you know they wouldn't slip up?

If anyone's attacked enough for their vote, they're hardly going to keep it unless they have a REALLY good reason to.

Not true at all. Different people=different behaviors.

Oswin kept his vote because he wasn't really attacked that much; Neon and Noivern were both leapt upon for their votes, which is why they didn't keep theirs.

What do those have to do with each other?

At least, that's how I see it. Besides that, you refer to their unvoting as them 'trying to avoid mislynching' Phoenicks. Unless you know something we don't, then you can't be sure that a lynch on Phoenicks would be a mislynch.

is that a slip-up i smell already?

I said that as a possible theory. If you read my first post then you would have seen that I also presented a theory of Phoenicks being mafia.

But the votes are frozen now, so we can't do anything much but wait till it thaws out, or the phase is over.

How are we to trust Mijz's word on that, plus what does that have to do with anything? We should keep discussing and looking for mafia slip ups.

I never 'let' myself get lynched as doctor.

You did in Bowser mafia and actually encouraged your own lynching.

I have to bring a little meta here. Phoenicks - when he's mafia, he's pro-town. REALLY pro-town. If you don't believe me, go look up the games where he's been mafia. I have to say he's really impressive because he can convince anyone that he is town with his 'pro-town behavior'. I respect that part of his ability. Mind-game strategies, that is, but that's exactly why I can't say that he's town when he's looking pro-town. He's more likely to be mafia.

I've played two games with Phoenicks. In one I died early and he was town but I didn't keep up with the game to see his behavior. In the other he was mafia and I again died early but kept up with the game. He was mafia and looked really pro-town meaning he's a tricky player and one I will never trust without a cop check and dead godfather. Pro-town=/= town.

anyone who's actually good at mafia should be able to convince others that they're town -- you can't tell if someone's town for sure in ANY game or in most situations.

Yeah you can. Cop checks when there is no worries of something like godfather and other things like that.

you can't try and lynch phoenicks for being 'too pro-town' (which is literally not even a thing) and expect people to take you seriously.

Actually some would take it seriously because playing behavior can easily decide someone's alignment.

if you brought this notion up on any other mafia forum, you'd get seriously laughed at.

This is BMG not another forum so your comments are irrelevant.

the fact that you have to rely on meta to back up your argument proves that it's a weak argument to begin with.

Mafias are based off of meta to find scum so it should never be brushed off.

A few more thoughts:

1. If I'm pro-town as scum or town then it's a nulltell.

Maybe to you but to others it could be a scumtell.

4. Mijz is perfectly able and willing to lie. :3

As is any player in this game including you.

6. I thought Harpy's first post was scummy (he added nothing) and I agree with jda and buoy's responses.

1) I'm a girl
2) What about their responses do you agree with?
3) How is pointing out what others ignored not adding anything. I didn't repeat anything said and instead brought up what was ignored so please tell me how I didn't add anything? Or is it because one of them is your scumbuddy and you don't like that I brought attention on them?

 

[Mijzelffan]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

A few more thoughts:

1. If I'm pro-town as scum or town then it's a nulltell.

(2. If you're about to be lynched as a powerful role then you should claim and lynch someone else. Scum will probably kill you but now there is a chance of lynching scum during that phase.)

(3. We should not be defeatists.)

4. Mijz is perfectly able and willing to lie. :3

5. If he's not, let's not be defeatists.

1. Good thing I never consider anything you do pro-town then :3

2. The mafia would be pretty stupid to kill me now, especially if noivern dies innocent. I'm in no way cleared while I just used up my powers and am thus a useless vanilla. If noivern ends up innocent they should probably try to lynch me instead, who knows, they could get a bandwagon going.

3. Don't tell me how to play the game. >:I

4. No use for pointless lies, it will only affect your credibility when you tell the truth. Lying about this would be pretty pointless.

5. You gotta know when to gracefully accept defeat, no point in fighting for a lost cause :3

 

[GengarWithSunglasses]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Could someone please do a vote tally? I haven't formed an opinion yet, I'll finish reading the thread first, then I'll post again talking about my suspicions or why I don't have any.

 

[Buoy]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Why? How do you know they wouldn't slip up?

You can't 'accidentally' vote somebody to try and lynch them. You can hardly 'slip up' and end up lynching someone.

Not true at all. Different people=different behaviors.

I said 'if anyone's attacked enough'. The word enough is there for a reason. Different people have different limits, too, and I said if anyone gets attacked ENOUGH (i.e. attacked to a certain level) for their vote, they're going to withdraw it, unless they have a really good reason not to withdraw it. My point is still valid. Oswin was attacked far less for his vote than Neon and Noivern, and that's why he kept his as opposed to them withdrawing theirs.

Oswin kept his vote because he wasn't really attacked that much; Neon and Noivern were both leapt upon for their votes, which is why they didn't keep theirs.

I was pointing out the difference between their situations -- trying to strengthen my point that people who are attacked a lot for their votes are likely to withdraw them.

I said that as a possible theory. If you read my first post then you would have seen that I also presented a theory of Phoenicks being mafia.

It doesn't matter what you said before -- you were probably more aware of what you were saying then than you are now. In the particular sentence where I picked up the 'slip up' ("It shows they were trying to avoid mislynching him with attention already on them") there is no 'if' or 'maybe' or 'would' or 'could' -- there's no suggestion of a POSSIBILITY in that sentence. You're saying it as though you already know that it's going to be a mislynch. What's more is that you USE this sentence as a basis for a possibility in your next one: you say that, because the lynch on Phoenicks would have been a mislynch if it was executed, that it 'COULD' mean that Neon and Noivern are mafia. The fact that you based a conditional sentence off of that sentence suggests that you do indeed think that Phoenicks' death would be a mislynch as it being a fact, rather than a possibility -- and you can't know that it would be a mislynch unless you're mafia.

How are we to trust Mijz's word on that, plus what does that have to do with anything? We should keep discussing and looking for mafia slip ups.

This is your first mention of slip-ups yet in this game. It's strange that it comes in the exact same post where you're defending yourself because of your own slip-up. It's -- weirdly enough -- almost as if you're trying to look for someone else to 'slip-up' so you can shift attention to them. And discuss what exactly? Do you want to bring up any points for discussion? You can't just say 'let's discuss!' without anything suggested to discuss.

I've played two games with Phoenicks. In one I died early and he was town but I didn't keep up with the game to see his behavior. In the other he was mafia and I again died early but kept up with the game. He was mafia and looked really pro-town meaning he's a tricky player and one I will never trust without a cop check and dead godfather. Pro-town=/= town.

This is another recap that doesn't add anything meaningful to your post -- at all. You basically just regurgitated exactly what Spectrum Achromatic said, except with your own little anecdote tied in. :l

Yeah you can. Cop checks when there is no worries of something like godfather and other things like that.

Sorry, can you read? I was almost sure I said 'most' situations.

Actually some would take it seriously because playing behavior can easily decide someone's alignment.

here's the thing! there's no such concept as being 'too pro-town'! it's impossible to be 'TOO pro-town'! what a shocker

This is BMG not another forum so your comments are irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. I'm showing her that her logic would not be widely accepted -- BMG sure as hell isn't the be-all and end-all of mafia. It's not like her logic can't be presented on another forum -- anyone on the internet can come and read what she just wrote. Okay, let's have it your way: if someone from another forum came here and read that, she'd get seriously laughed at. Is that any better for you, princess?

Mafias are based off of meta to find scum so it should never be brushed off.

Scumhunting is never based off meta. It's surprising to find that you don't think meta should be brushed off when you're ready to brush off more valid comments, such as my one about the other forums. Apparently more logical things than meta are 'irrelevant' to you.

A few more thoughts:

1. If I'm pro-town as scum or town then it's a nulltell.

Maybe to you but to others it could be a scumtell.

Then they're wrong. Literally. There's no two ways about it. If Phoenicks is always pro-town, then you can't tell what alignment he is either way, thus rendering it a null tell. If he is pro-town no matter what his alignment, then there is no way you can interpret that as either a scumtell or a towntell, because there are equal chances of it being either, so therefore it's a null tell.

As is any player in this game including you.

As I recall, he didn't suggest that he wasn't included in that. You shouldn't try and make it about him when it's clearly about someone else, and when he didn't even say the logic didn't apply to himself.

1) I'm a girl
2) What about their responses do you agree with?
3) How is pointing out what others ignored not adding anything. I didn't repeat anything said and instead brought up what was ignored so please tell me how I didn't add anything? Or is it because one of them is your scumbuddy and you don't like that I brought attention on them?

Just something here. I'm not trying to speak for Phoenicks, but generally when a person doesn't specify what they agree with in an argument, that means they agree with all of it. Additionally, not pointing out something in-thread is not ignoring it -- a person can still acknowledge something without having to recap the thread to everyone just to make sure that someone didn't miss something blindingly obvious. You didn't add anything because you literally didn't point out anything that wasn't already obvious to people.

 

[Phoenicks]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Walls of text!

Can we all please agree to not be snarky? It's a downer.

Mijz: My parentheticals weren't about you.

Not going to have a discussion about who scum should kill.

Even if votes are locked we should play on because people voting (or pretending to) makes more data than not voting.

Harpy:

Sorry for using the wrong pronoun.

If I act the same way as town an scum then, objectively, it is a nulltell. The logical progression "he does this as town and scum, therefore it doesn't show town/scum" doesn't stop being true.

Your responses make me feel more comfortable voting you.

Buoy: yes I would say I agree with most/all of the cases you and jda have made on Harpy.

Unless anyone has questions about that I'm going to pause and let other people enter the discussion.

 

[Midorikawa]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@Phoenicks; All jda said was a repeat of what Froakie said which I find interesting you didn't point out at all yet you were saying that I didn't contribute and you agree with everything Buoy said. jda only argued with me about my concentration being more on Oswin and not considering jda. Which I explained multiple times. So in other words you agree with him that someone should not judge anything about votes being useful and whatnot yet you did the same exact thing to Spectrum.

 

[jda95]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@Phoenicks; All jda said was a repeat of what Froakie said which I find interesting you didn't point out at all yet you were saying that I didn't contribute and you agree with everything Buoy said. jda only argued with me about my concentration being more on Oswin and not considering jda. Which I explained multiple times. So in other words you agree with him that someone should not judge anything about votes being useful and whatnot yet you did the same exact thing to Spectrum.

fun fact! a vote for a player actually in the game is infinitely more useful than one for a player not in it (that's something i can say quantitatively)

don't have much else to say about everything else that's been said right now
apart from saying the assumption that "pro-town=/=town therefore pro-town=mafia" is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard in my life

 

[Almonds]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@Phoenicks; All jda said was a repeat of what Froakie said which I find interesting you didn't point out at all yet you were saying that I didn't contribute and you agree with everything Buoy said. jda only argued with me about my concentration being more on Oswin and not considering jda. Which I explained multiple times. So in other words you agree with him that someone should not judge anything about votes being useful and whatnot yet you did the same exact thing to Spectrum.

fun fact! a vote for a player actually in the game is infinitely more useful than one for a player not in it (that's something i can say quantitatively)

don't have much else to say about everything else that's been said right now
apart from saying the assumption that "pro-town=/=town therefore pro-town=mafia" is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard in my life

That applies to Phoenicks 99.99%. Mafia would definitely try to look town as much as possible - and that's where we can find it plausible.

 

[jda95]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@Phoenicks; All jda said was a repeat of what Froakie said which I find interesting you didn't point out at all yet you were saying that I didn't contribute and you agree with everything Buoy said. jda only argued with me about my concentration being more on Oswin and not considering jda. Which I explained multiple times. So in other words you agree with him that someone should not judge anything about votes being useful and whatnot yet you did the same exact thing to Spectrum.

fun fact! a vote for a player actually in the game is infinitely more useful than one for a player not in it (that's something i can say quantitatively)

don't have much else to say about everything else that's been said right now
apart from saying the assumption that "pro-town=/=town therefore pro-town=mafia" is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard in my life

That applies to Phoenicks 99.99%. Mafia would definitely try to look town as much as possible - and that's where we can find it plausible.

please tell me how immediately assuming a player is mafia because they are acting beneficial to the town is a good thing

 

[Zenax]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Voting locked, update pending.

 

[Nytie]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Okay, I think I've figured out where Spectrum is coming from. Mafiosos are sometimes overeager to prove that they are town and they try to be very active and aggressive - it's a mistake I've made before. However, it's important to distinguish between that and actual pro-town action, and jumping to conclusions without good evidence usually ends badly.

Edit: Oops, phase change.

 

[Midorikawa]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@jda95; No one is saying that pro town does not make someone town. However it does not make everyone mafia either. Mafia can be just as pro town if not more than town. Spectrum and I tried to point out that Phoenicks looks very pro town as mafia

 

[jda95]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@jda95; No one is saying that pro town does not make someone town. However it does not make everyone mafia either. Mafia can be just as pro town if not more than town. Spectrum and I tried to point out that Phoenicks looks very pro town as mafia

you seem to be doing a lot of strange singling out. pro-town actually doesn't make someone town, as i've said, but the assumption that anyone is mafia simply because they're pro-town is not smart in the slightest. yes, phoenicks is a pro-town player when he's mafia. are you saying he's not pro-town when he's town? why is he the only person you're focusing on in this, has no one else acted pro-town today?

 

[Hitomi]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Mafias are based off of meta to find scum so it should never be brushed off.

I know it's between phases right now but

you want to improve as a player with every game you play. Thus, if your play style is exactly the same and you don't learn from your mistakes and try different things in each game you play, you are missing the point of mafias. Adaptation to the games is what makes them fun, and when a person refuses to change his or her play style even a little bit from game to game it means he or she did not learn from their past mistakes and triumphs in previous games. If everyone played the same way every time without changing, then the only thing different from one game to another is the flavor text. That's boring. Meta is not a valid scumtell.

If Phoenicks (or any player, really) always comes off as strongly town then that means they're doing it right. You always want to come off as town, and there's no such thing as "too town."

 

[Midorikawa]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

@Hitomi; While players should be improving they won't change their whole style immediately thus you can still notice specific things about their style. Knowing styles is meta and how you are able to catch scum amongst even the most pro town looking players.

 

[Zenax]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

Sherlock Holmes took a stand back once the conflict erupted and leaned on the wall opposite to the scene, maintaining a facade of casualness. Not engaging himself with a matter he was not involved in was only the most logical choice he could make. His many years as a private detective had him become an efficient actor who could appear to others like he wanted them to perceive him. This scenario proved to be a successful one; the attention he attracted was null, and he had gathered a large quantity of information on the characters surrounding him. There had been a casualty, but this was a necessary sacrifice to allow Sherlock to work his magic, and in the long run, he found, attempted arrests, and occasionally killed every wrongdoers present in the room.

But this is not how it happened.

Sherlock Holmes attempted to take a stand back once the conflict erupted in the hope of pinning down every criminals present in the area. But even the greatest masterminds cannot predict that a riled up crowd would jump on a man trying to slip away in the thought that he was one of the villains who had them gathered there. It was too late once Sherlock received the first unexpected blow behind the head; he now had absolutely no option left to escape. All he could do was watch with excessive anxiety the crowd tie his hands and slip a noose around his neck. Soon enough, the detective had become the first casualty.

Spoiler

Noivern,

You are Sherlock Holmes.

Spoiler

"Never theorize before you have data. Invariably, you end up twisting facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

You are an eccentric detective, renowned for being particularly adept at picking up every single details on a crime scene. You are also very skilled at making logical deductions, making you a formidable opponent in battles of the mind, which allowed you to prevail over criminal masterminds such as Lord Blackwood and Professor Moriarty.

Using your cunning mind, you may inspect someone every night and learn of the player’s alignment.

You are allied with the Heroes. Defeat the Villains to win.

It is now Night 1.

Day 2 will begin on June 21st at 10 PM, Eastern time.

Spoiler

@Soulmaster;
@Stahl;
@Mijzelffan;
@Froakie;
@Buoy;
@Chronos;
@Phoenicks;
@Neon Borealis;
@♦Wallflower♦;
@CrackFox;
@GliscorMan;
@Harpy;
@jda95;
@Terezi Pyrope;
@J J M;
@Noivern;
@Hitomi;
@Spectrum Achromatic;
@Faerie;
@Oswin;
@acs1903;
@Pokemaster97;
@GengarWithSunglasses;
@Nytie;

 

[CrackFox]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Day 1 - Let's get dangerous!

I disagree and agree with quite a few points but these walls of text are tiring, in a nutshell.

Mijz isn't always mafia. In most games i've played with him, he's town. Not saying it matters at all about past games but yeah, let's nip that accusation in the bud.
I am inclined to trust his claims. Not because he is giving a town reading, just because I think he has more sense than to start faking abilities this early without good reason. It's risky and it wouldn't strike me as something he'd do at all. The only thing I am unsure about is his defense of Phoenicks.

Can we stop about pointless posts. Does it really matter, there's a number of reasons why people might make them, at least 80% of those wouldn't add up to scum.

I absolutely think that being too pro-town is cause for suspician on some occassions. It's a great way to not just blend in but also to establish yourself as an activist for the town and once that is established, manipulating unsuspecting townies. It's like if I secretly smashed a window by accident but I made a point of being the first one to say 'omg who the f**k did this'. For lots of people, psychologically they would have already decided I had nothing to do with it.

Not saying that it's happening here at all. I'm just saying that I definitely agree, pro-town exists.

As far as voting goes, i'd be inclined to vote Phoenicks if I had too but I couldn't do it with conviction. I didn't like the way he and others reacted to the joke voting, it held things up and anybody this headstrong so early, catches my eye.

Edit: Oh great, we lynched the cop......

 

[GliscorMan]

Re: Mafia Wars: The Scum Menace - Night 1 - The first victim

Ok um. Anyone wish to discuss the following...

1. Mijz was (presumably) telling the truth about a role in the game (presumably his role, however there are other factors).

2. Mijz locked all votes early on and hit the cop (which I couldn't have possibly been the intention to kill the cop, but the fact that he locked the votes so early, nevertheless)

My third point is more of an opened-ended question. Mijz, what were the specific hints that caused you to lynch Noivern?