Mastermind of Mirage Pokemon - Pokemon.com Article

[Kasumi]

And Archaic being the site's (and Bulbacast) owner gives him the right to not accept your request, Pie.

 

[Pie]

Oh, I know. But it's less the fact that he rejected it and more the reason why that irks me. He's never been paranoid about bias before - heck, how many times have we openly ridiculed AdvanceShipping on the 'cast, now?

 

[Kasumi]

Bias in shipping is not as bad for the Bulbacasts as it would be in the case of the VAs, PUSA and 4Kids.

 

[Pie]

Still. It's only a commercial, and I know he wouldn't have any problems with it if he himself supported the cause.

But I suppose it's irrelevant. Forget I said anything - I may be trying to maintain control of my judgement, but my words and actions are a different story.

 

[Archaic]

No, we've heard a lot of conflicting things. Mostly about the reason for the replacement (For example: "Their 4Kids contracts won't let them." "We tried, but 4Kids screwed up the negotiations." "We thought you guys wanted this change."), how likely it is that we can get the VAs back ("Depends on how the fan reaction is." "Season nine's a lost cause, but we can totally get them back for season ten." "We're stuck with them. Forever. The contracts are done, with no expiration date, and nothing in this mortal world can end these agreements now."), and to a lesser degree 4Kids' involvement ("They're evil and caused the whole thing because they're upset at losing their series." "It's not them, but their contracts - as long as the VAs are with 4Kids, they can't be with anyone else." "There wasn't any 4Kids involvement at all, this was our mistake, sorry.").

How much of that have we heard directly from people at PUSA who actually
a) Have decision making ability?
b) Would actually be in the know, and aren't low ranking peons?

We've heard very little officially from reliable sources at PUSA (WPM's source is, upon some investigation, probably reliable, but sadly, he's continually misquoted or misunderstood the information this source has presented to him.), and none of the info coming from there has yet contradicted itself.

Just hypothetically going through the examples you've given though...
"Their 4Kids contracts won't let them."
"We tried, but 4Kids screwed up the negotiations." - Same meaning as the above.
"We thought you guys wanted this change." - Is an expression of them not understanding why some people are so against the change, not a reason for the change. Could be an explanation for them not trying harder to get in a situation where a change wasn't necessary however.

"Depends on how the fan reaction is."
"Season nine's a lost cause, but we can totally get them back for season ten." - Simply a clarification of the above, consistant with the information about the contracts
"We're stuck with them. Forever. The contracts are done, with no expiration date, and nothing in this mortal world can end these agreements now." - Never said.

"They're evil and caused the whole thing because they're upset at losing their series." - Never said by PUSA, but I probably said something like that at some stage, as my own speculation.
"It's not them, but their contracts - as long as the VAs are with 4Kids, they can't be with anyone else." - Consistant and true, though it lacks the clarification we've been presenting recently regarding the specific things which may be an issue with the contracts.
"There wasn't any 4Kids involvement at all, this was our mistake, sorry." - I'm pretty sure this was never said. Afterall, there was 4Kids involvement when they originally tried to get the VA's from 4Kids.

And thank you for insulting my ability to maintain clear thoughts in situations like these. Yes, I do have a tendancy to spaz out at first - but it's been a week, Archaic, and I already got out my emotional reaction to the voice actors, as anyone who visits my LJ can tell you (great thing for incoherent rants, that). I confess entirely that I am wicked stressed out right now by this as well as other things, but I am working my hardest to maintain a cool head online and stay rational about this whole thing. Hence why my course of action has only been decided by three things I am damn sure of: new voices = bad, old voices = good, and Pie will not watch season nine if voices = bad.

Those things you are "damn sure" about are all based on an emotional reaction. You've even stated that you won't give the new voices a chance to settle into their roles before making a judgement. You just had a kneejerk rejection of them fullstop.

Also, for someone who insists on not letting personal feelings influence one's thinking, I notice you left a fairly neutral stance and turned against SOVA considerably after you decided Brock's new voice reminded you more of the Japanese voice and concluded it therefore must be better. And I'm not talking about just arguing against us - it irked me a lot when you said you didn't want a SOVA commercial on the Bulbacast because you wanted to give the impression Bulbagarden is neutral on the issue. It would be one thing if I was saying, "Hey, can we devote this whole Bulbacast to trashing the new voice actors and pimping SOVA like bandits? =D" but I thought asking for one commercial was a reasonable request, you know?

My reasons for slowly abandoning my neutrality on this issue have nothing to do with how I thought Brock's voice sounded, and everything to do with the increasing immaturity of the 4Kids's voice actors.

As far as the SOVA commercial goes, after giving it due consideration, I've got no problem with it so long as there's a disclaimer attached, stating that it's SOVA's policies are it's own, and not Bulbagarden's. Hell, any Bulbacast on the subject will need a disclaimer attached, stating that everything we say is the opinion of staff members only, and not the official position of the site. As of now, Bulbagarden has no official position on the issue. My own opinion does not equal Bulbagarden's opinion any more than yours or any other staff member's would.

 

[joshnickerson]

I do give Pokemon.com credit though, at least they addressed the issue, abiet bogged down in BS PR speak. I simply expected them to gloss over the issue and pretend nothing ever happened.

"...they did a great job on The Mastermind of Mirage Pokemon during the shortened transition period between production studios..."

I'm hoping that this is reason the sole special was so horribly acted. It did have a feeling of being rushed, and it's quite possible the actors were shoved into the recording booth at the last minute and forced to read their lines cold without any sort of reference (would explain May sounding like she was in a coma).

 

[Nomekop Oen]

While I don't doubt that the majority of Pokemon's audience is the target demographic,I think there's enough reason to believe that there is a significant amount of people outside the demographic that are Pokemon fans.I mean,just take a look at the games themselves.


Top Ten Selling Games of 2003

1.Madden NFL 2004
2.Pokemon Ruby
3.Pokemon Sapphire
4.Need For Speed:Underground
5.Zelda:The Wind Waker
6.Grand Theft Auto:Vice City
7.Mario Kartouble Dash
8.Tony Hawk Underground
9.Enter The Matrix
10.Medal Of Honor:Rising Sun

http://www.npd.com/dynamic/releases/press_040126a.htm


Top Ten Selling Games of 2004

1.Grand Theft Auto:San Andreas
2.Halo 2
3.Madden NFL 2005
4.ESPN NFL 2K5
5.Need For Speed:Underground 2
6.Pokemon Fire Red
7.NBA Live 2005
8.Spider-Man:The Movie 2
9.Halo
10.ESPN NFL 2K5

http://www.npd.com/dynamic/releases/press_050119.html


Top Ten Selling Games of 2005

1.Madden NFL 06
2.Pokemon Emerald
3.Gran Turismo 4
4.Madden NFL 06
5.NCAA Football 06
6.Star Wars:Battlefront II
7.MVP Baseball 2005
8.Star Wars Episode III:Revenge of the Sith
9.NBA Live 06
10.Lego Star Wars

http://www.npd.com/dynamic/releases/press_060117.html




Alright,so we know it's just not kids buying the games.If it were,where are all the Disney or Nickelodeon games on that list? Or the big movie tie-in games like Finding Nemo,Shrek,or Madagascar? I mean c'mon,Pokemon Emerald is sandwiched inbetween freakin' Madden and Gran Turismo.Two of the most mainstream games you think of.And for Pokemon to come only 2nd to Madden for two years is saying a lot.Madden is freakin' GOD here in the U.S.For Pokemon to put up those kinds of numbers,it means that EVERYONE is buying them.Whether it'd be your little brother,your roommate,or your uncle,etc.


Do people who play the games watch the anime? Not necessarily.What we do know,is that Pokemon ran on Kids'Wb for 8 years while consistently being one of the highest rated programs on television.


People can say,"It's just kids watching their cartoons." Sure,part of it is that,but Saturday morning cartoons rarely go on for that long of a run.Spider-Man ran for 5 years,X-Men ran for 6 years,and the only other series that I think beats out Pokemon is Super Friends,which ran for 13 years.


*Something* else has to be there.Something like an established fanbase perhaps? Sure,why not.We all know popular comic books have strong loyal followings.Just look at how long Spider-Man,X-Men,and Super Friends lasted.I think it's fair to say that long running,highly rated series are supported by a cycle of new generations of fans and an established fanbase.


A cycle of new fans can probably keep a series alive for awhile,but probably to a point where it's not relevant anymore,like Power Rangers.And the fanbase alone almost never works at all.How much times have we heard of a series being canceled despite that it created a cult following? Stuff like Firefly maybe? Or maybe Angel,even though I think it had a pretty good run.It's when you get the two together that gets positive results.


But with these new VA's on the Pokemon dub,the series is in danger of losing a sizeable chunk of it's audience.Maybe,maybe not.


If the new cast in the Mirage special are in fact the permanent VAs,I know I'm not watching.What's the point? The dub was fun to watch because after this long you grew attached to the voices,not to mention they are good actors.And it was also fun to see how the english voices that I'm familiar with compared to the japanese performances.But with the new voices,that novelty is no longer there.


And whether or not the Mirage special was a rushjob is irrelevant.This is Pokemon for god's sakes,it's not the fucking English Patient.I expect better from *professional actors*.

 

[NewBrock]

I would like to bring up one potential point of why we haven't had much in the way of official reply comment from Pokémon USA regarding the current issues.

E3.

Pokémon USA isn't just concerned with the anime, it's concerned with the video games and TCG as well, not to mention all the other marketing of the franchise. E3 is likely to be big for Pokémon, with english announcements of Mysterious Dungeon, Ranger, and maybe even a possible announcement of Diamond and Pearl if we're lucky. The entire marketing and PR department is *very* busy currently, and on a tight schedule. They simply don't have the time to deal with this issue at the current point in time in a way that would do the issue justice.

Mark my words. We will hear something substantial from Pokémon USA regarding this issue following E3, with all these details we're worrying over currently spelled out and clarified. Until then...all we can do is wait. And hopefully, you all (and by that, I mean everyone in the online fandom, not just people on this forum) won't keep clogging up the inbox of both them and CN with these emails until at least after then.

You bring up some interesting points. I am also wondering what PUSA will say at E3. There has been a lot of confidentiality things that can not be discussed and I for one will be happy to see more information released on these issues (seeing as how I have to be really careful as to what I can talk about).

But your mention of Pokemon's schedule of new games also got me thinking. With the recent release of Trozei (a puzzle game), mysterious dungeon (from what I understand, this rescue-type game varies from the normal Pokemon), and Pokemon Ranger (which also seems to differ) it looks like the Pokemon franchise is looking to expand (or evolve if you will) into more than just the standard games. The anime also seems to reflect this change as I see from looking around on different sites that there is a ranger episode and movie in the works.

I know a lot of people have stated that the voice change would have been better suited to happen at the end of Houen and the beginning of Kanto, but from what I understand Season nine picks up only a few episodes into Kanto. And from what I can tell of previous track records, each story arc seems to run for anywhere between 80-100+ episodes, so maybe 2006 and Kanto will be the point when Pokemon evolves into a new form. And just like people love Charmander, people also love Charmeleon and Charizard.

 

[FabuVinny]

A variety of games is nothing new as there have been different kinds of games since Pokémon Snap. (And just as the main character of that appeared for a few episodes, we have the upcoming episodes you mentioned with Hinata and the movie with another ranger.)

Your evolution metaphor is interesting, though it can be expanded. Charizard is the strongest Pokémon Ash has but from the moment Charmander evolved for a long time, it wouldn't listen to Ash and was thus far from being an improvement. Yet Ash did manage to gain its loyalty eventually and it took down a legendary Pokémon in its last appearance. To bring it back to this situation, season 9 will be one of the hardest for the dub. If it can prove itself after this, then most of the fans who left Mastermind with negative feelings will be won back. If not, this will be what fans point to as the moment Pokémon jumped the shark.

So no pressure. ;-)

 

[Cybersai]

It's also telling because Season 9, the BF saga, is shaping up to be one of the best Pokemon seasons ever. There is a LOT of plot driven episodes this season, with very little filler. Ash's Brains and May's Contests are much closer together this time than back in Hoenn, so everything is moving much faster this time.

Brock, in fact, does have a few spotlight episodes this season, and it's very important that he gets these episodes right. (Brock will be crushed on by Lucy, he gets a baby Pokemon in Bonsly, he competes against May in a Contest, and he'll be defending the Pewter Gym with Ash in a few weeks).

While Brock's role generally is minimal this season (hell, it was minimal back in Hoenn too), those four episodes above are arguably his most important episodes this season, and those need to be done right.

 

[Nomekop Oen]

It's also telling because Season 9, the BF saga, is shaping up to be one of the best Pokemon seasons ever. There is a LOT of plot driven episodes this season, with very little filler. Ash's Brains and May's Contests are much closer together this time than back in Hoenn, so everything is moving much faster this time.

Which is another reason why this VA situation sucks.Why couldn't all of this happen during mid-Johto? ><;


I'll be honest,there are only 2 ways I'll watch the dub this fall.(if it lands on another network by then that is...)


1.All of the original VA's are restored. (no offense)

2.Like I posted on another thread,I think I'd feel more comfortable if the new cast took their own approach to each character.I think they should really ditch the idea of trying to imitate the original voices.That mainly applies to Ash,Brock,James,and Meowth.Max was okay,Oak was serviceable although a little high pitched,and Misty and Jessie were the best imitations but there's still room for improvement overall.I actually wouldn't mind if Ash had more of a conventional masculine voice.Obviously not 'Vin Diesel deep',but definitely more of a 'guy voice'.

Or you could also try to base the voices on the japanese version.This may come as a shock,but James (old or new),does *not* sound like that in the japanese version.


That said,I was not very impressed with the performances on the Mirage special.All I can say is that the original cast set the bar pretty high,they are in fact good actors.Rachael Lillis' Jessie was an almost perfect english rendition of Megumi Hayashibara's Musashi.So the quality of work of the old cast was quite good.I'm sorry to say that the new cast did not meet cetain expections I expect to hear in an english dub.

 

[Dogasu]

2.Like I posted on another thread,I think I'd feel more comfortable if the new cast took their own approach to each character.I think they should really ditch the idea of trying to imitate the original voices.

I'm sure they'd like to, but from what I've gathered, the VA's really don't have any say in the way they voice their characters. They're forced to follow the directions of the voice directors, so if they're told to imitate the old voices, they have to imitate the old voices. If they refuse, they'd probably be given their pink slip.

Maddie Blaustein was able to get around that when she took over as Meowth, but that's the exception, not the rule.

 

[maddiejoan]

I'm sure they'd like to, but from what I've gathered, the VA's really don't have any say in the way they voice their characters. They're forced to follow the directions of the voice directors, so if they're told to imitate the old voices, they have to imitate the old voices. If they refuse, they'd probably be given their pink slip.

Maddie Blaustein was able to get around that when she took over as Meowth, but that's the exception, not the rule.

I got around it by refusing to do it. I was willing to take the chance I'd be pink-slipped. It was that important to me

 

[PDUTogepi]

I agree with Nomekop Oen's statement and it's too bad the new VAs probably won't be able to do the voices in their own way because I think it would improve things a bit. With imitations I'd personally feel too restricted if it was me, thus it might effect how they act and how they grow, if they were allowed to just do the voices in their own way, they'd have a lot more freedom to grow and I personally would like to have different voices that are good, than imitations that are bad.

Earlier this last week my mum made a similar statement about a Queen Tribute band we saw that made me think of this situation. My mum, a long time Queen fan, said she enjoyed the tribute band and it was enjoyable because they weren't trying to BE Queen, they weren't imitating them, dressing up as them or anything, they were simply performing the songs in their own style as purely a tribute, nothing else and this is what initially got me thinking "If the new Pokémon VAs were able to do the characters voices in their own style and not as imitations, would people enjoy them more like that as well?"

 

[Dogasu]

I got around it by refusing to do it. I was willing to take the chance I'd be pink-slipped. It was that important to me

Unfortunately, everyone isn't willing to take that chance.

 

[Nomekop Oen]

I'm sure they'd like to, but from what I've gathered, the VA's really don't have any say in the way they voice their characters. They're forced to follow the directions of the voice directors, so if they're told to imitate the old voices, they have to imitate the old voices. If they refuse, they'd probably be given their pink slip.

Well maybe it'd be a good idea for NewBrock (after seeing what kind of reaction there's been so far),and the other other VAs to have a talk with their director and see if they can reach some sort of compromise.If the new dub so dead-set on imitating the old voices,then option #2 flies out the window.Now I'm just left with option #1,and God only knows the chances of that happening.



And welcome to the BulbaForums Maddie! Huge fan of your work.:unworthy: I really hope that you and the rest of the original cast get the chance to reprise your roles.Cause' chances are this following year in Pokemon is going to suck.The optimistic side of me tries to see this as a bump in the road,and that something eventually had to happen.Up until this point,the VA situation was perfect,but in the back of my mind I knew something was going to give sooner or later.But with any luck,hopefully everything can go back to normal.


With the way things are right now,it does look like I'll be taking a year long break from Pokemon.Even if these new VAs are confirmed to be the permanent ones for a good while,the year off would still do some good to any fan of the original since you can't make that big of a switch so suddenly.



BTW,I've always wondered about this,but does any of the original cast get together from time to time for some "Pokemon VA mixer" or something? ^^; Yeah,I know,odd question.But like I said,I've always wondered. <<;

 

[maddiejoan]

BTW,I've always wondered about this,but does any of the original cast get together from time to time for some "Pokemon VA mixer" or something? ^^; Yeah,I know,odd question.But like I said,I've always wondered. <<;

yeah --we do

 

[Nomekop Oen]

yeah --we do

That is just plain awesome.