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Mafia Mentor Mafia Game: Rainbow Rocket Strikes Back - Endgame

This has been brought up before, but 72 hour day phase games seem to be unpopular on this site. The 48/24 thing has become standard here because of how popular it is with our players.

First off, as a mentor game, the rules are supposed to be a little different. Secondly. 72h is standard on many sites (Smogon for instance) so it's not necessarily a bad system. Thirdly, if you are going to use 48 hour days then you really must force the players to be active as otherwise it won't work.
 
First off, as a mentor game, the rules are supposed to be a little different. Secondly. 72h is standard on many sites (Smogon for instance) so it's not necessarily a bad system. Thirdly, if you are going to use 48 hour days then you really must force the players to be active as otherwise it won't work.
Just kinda shoving myself in the discussion, but

Noone is saying it's bad, but other forums cultures are other forum cultures. I don't see the point in comparing traditions that were created over the years and judging them as better/worse. If you strongly believe one of them is more balanced or better or whatever you can probably just stick there and invite the people you like to play with you.

As for inactivity, I feel like the whole point of a mentor game is attracting new players to this community, which can lead it back into being more active.
I agree that if new players are inactive we might want to try some reforms, but I'm not sure what inactivity has to do with it being 48h though. Bulba already has night talking which most places don't, and active players will usually be active no matter how long the phases are.

This prolly isn't the best place to discuss this, tbh. Maybe take this to the Situation Room tho.
 
First off, as a mentor game, the rules are supposed to be a little different. Secondly. 72h is standard on many sites (Smogon for instance) so it's not necessarily a bad system. Thirdly, if you are going to use 48 hour days then you really must force the players to be active as otherwise it won't work.
Pretty much what exlight said. What works for one community may not work for another. Feel free to continue this in the situation room. We’re always open to discussion.
 
Did you have fun?
I was a sub, but the two times I subbed in, I had fun! I died one round in both times, but it be like that sometimes, haha. I guess if I'm not dying in the first round I'm in, I'm not doing it right.

How was the flavour text?
i'm so sorry i didn't actually read it, i just lightly skimmed, pls forgive.

How was the hosting? (eg. were the phases on time, were updates correct, etc.)
Everything seemed solid to me.

What was your favourite part (eg. something funny or cool that happened)?
Subbing in and dying pretty much instantly to keep the memes alive.

Did you enjoy working together as a player / mentor?
I didn't get to work too much with Pika, but I did enjoy working with Pika and Jinjo! I learned some pretty valuable information from both, and it was nice to be able to bounce ideas off someone and talk things out. (Of course, now I'm learning I can just ramble in my DMs with the host and they probably won't kill me lmao.)

Did you enjoy your role, and did you like how the Role PM was written?
I didn't get to use either of my roles, but Vigilante as a role is always fun imo. The role PMs were nice, and I like how the mentee and the mentor was included in it.

How did you hear about the game? (eg, Banner at the top of the forums, Discord, From a friend)
I saw the banner at the top of the forums, and I'm in the Discord. By the time I realized I should actually sign up, the game already started, so I just joined in as a sub.

Do you think you’ll be interested in playing more games here in The War Room after this game? Why / why not?
I'm already signed up for Chaos Mafia, but I'll probably play other games besides that one. Just gotta pace myself so I don't get overwhelmed between work and playing Mafia, haha.

I think the only criticism I had with this game was the inactivity of some players. I feel like it was hard to read some people because they were so inactive and laid low. I know typically in Mafia, there's a couple players that are typically dominant throughout the game, but I dunno, it just felt like there was one day that it was just me, Jamie, and Zorchic, and it was a little bit of a struggle. It's hard though, because you can't really force people to be active, but I think the pinging seemed to help. I'm not sure if 72 hour day phases would've helped, but I don't think it's a bad idea to consider if it seems necessary because nothing's happening.
 
I did have a few major problems with the setup of this game.

1. Mentor mafia games are almost always mountainous and for good reason. Having all these roles inserts many variables (for example, is this person being evasive because they are scum or because they are the cop?). If you want to teach players the basics of the game, it is far better to use a simple setup.
2. The inactivity in this game was horrible. Many people just made one or two posts and left and few people actually voted. I'm sorry but in these conditions it is impossible to do any real scumhunting. A minimum post count per day should have been enforced, 5 posts per day phase is more than faanir.
3. Plus, the 48 hour day phases could be a bit fast when there might not be a large timeframe for the mentor and mentee to communicate. 72 hour day phases would have helped with this, as well as helping with the inactivity problem.

If you do another game like this, I hope you implement these suggestions, as the game as it was was not a real learning experience.
1. On the one hand I agree with you there. but on the other hand, as I said earlier, we didn't want any player to have any boring roles. If your first game is as a vanilla then sure you get to learn the basics without much extra power stuff (although some other players will still have it so it's still relevant) but you lose the opportunity to learn how to work with those powers.
2. I mentioned this earlier already, but there are several factors to explain this level and is definitely something to look at for future games.
3. An extra day can help for communication, but I don't think overall activity will increase a lot by it. In general, if you're not active during the first 2 days, you're not going to be during the 3rd either, the same appleis for those who are already active.
 
I can't speak for any of the other mentors but I was tempted a few times to jump in and get the game flowing a bit
That’s when you attempt to push your mentee but depending on who it is doesn’t work.

im grateful I had the chance to work withwho I did. Jamie was my actual assigned one, and did an amazing job. But Tood and Agent were great too. I’m so proud of my little scums.

For a newbie game I don’t think activity was too bad.

My real complaint is balance. Seriously OP town.
1) The indep was more likely to align with town. Due to NOC, the indep would have been better off aligning with town since they can communicate with town but not mafia. Which gives town extra roles. And as Dawning said, they would have shot Jamie. So even aligning with mafia it would have worked against them. The indep jsut was not. Made to be mafia friendly.
2) Town has a lot of strong roles. Mafia was stuck with just rolecop as decent by end game. Roleblocker is really only useful when you know the town roles, and godfather is a vanilla. Town had a bomb, a vig, a doc, watcher, tracker/miller, and a bus driver. Miller is already a role easily cleared and ignored and adding a tracker into it makes it way too unfair. Especially when godfather is just a godfather. And the two are meant as counterparts.
3) EFFING OP BUSDRIVER. Seriously busdriver being unlimited and having priority over our roleblocker is way too strong.
 
The indep was more likely to align with town. Due to NOC, the indep would have been better off aligning with town since they can communicate with town but not mafia. Which gives town extra roles.
I definitely agree. If it weren't for the fact that it looked like I was going to die, I certainly would've went with town if it didn't look like I was going to die- I held off on my decision as long as I could because I wanted to be working with town if I were going to survive.
 
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3) EFFING OP BUSDRIVER. Seriously busdriver being unlimited and having priority over our roleblocker is way too strong.
While I do agree Bus Driver definitely was too strong, it's also a common Anti-Town role that messes with town, similar to Miller. Speaking of Miller got 1x Tracker so they weren't just a worse Vanilla, Godfather still has the advantage of scumbuds and the Mafia Kill. Role Cop & Roleblocker are a great combo.
I do disagree with the priority, Bus Driver is in essence a redirector, they're redirecting the Roleblocker action onto the person that gets switched, it's always been run like that hasn't it?
 
While I do agree Bus Driver definitely was too strong, it's also a common Anti-Town role that messes with town, similar to Miller. Speaking of Miller got 1x Tracker so they weren't just a worse Vanilla, Godfather still has the advantage of scumbuds and the Mafia Kill. Role Cop & Roleblocker are a great combo.
It is, sure but Bus driver should be roleblockable. This is the first game I've played where that's happened.
 
While I do agree Bus Driver definitely was too strong, it's also a common Anti-Town role that messes with town, similar to Miller. Speaking of Miller got 1x Tracker so they weren't just a worse Vanilla, Godfather still has the advantage of scumbuds and the Mafia Kill. Role Cop & Roleblocker are a great combo.
I do disagree with the priority, Bus Driver is in essence a redirector, they're redirecting the Roleblocker action onto the person that gets switched, it's always been run like that hasn't it?
Yeah if bus driver switched Paris and Giri, and meant to target Paris then sure it would get redirected onto Giri. But taking priority over roleblock when the roleblock is on the bus driver is where the issue comes in. And that wouldn’t be too bad, but the bus driver had unlimited shots too. So we literally had to kill them to do anything about them, which was also risky. It was just way too much. If the game had been a bit more active or there had been mass claiminb then I don’t think mafia would have won. Mafia were active so they could manipulate town, but town could have found mafia easily with claiming.

And while godfather may have scumbids, miller has the town. And town checks will never be fully trusted until godfather is dead. So what does godfather provide to their scumbuds? A sacrifice f necessary. That’s really it. Miller on bmg won’t get lynched if they claim d1. Giving them the tracker makes them feel too strong for their role even if it’s only a one shot since it’s another investigative role for town. They already had watcher and cop, and the indep. Not to mention bomb and a 2x vig in a small game. Seriously town could have done a mass claim and indep and vig shot the Worst claims. Or town just lynch them. You can nightkill one vig and block the other bit one kill will sill get tRhough.

And mafia had no investigative roles outside of rolecop, no way to get tRhough Doc except roleblock and first you need to know their role either bythem claiming or getting lucky with the rolecop. And toss unlimited bus driver into the mix that had priority over everything and mafia has a hard time.

Mafia is at more of a disadvantage than people think. They have to be really careful and try to keep the game from going to claims. It’s difficult in a role heavy game where town hAs basically every role that makes sense. Being able to communicate isn’t always an advantage as people think. It can pale in comparison if a town has a lot of firepower and if the activity is high enough, and the right leader.

too many mislynches leadby mafia: lynched.

Strange claim: lynched

Wrong word: lynched.

I honestly don’t know if mafia would have won against that town set up if not for the lack of activity from town.
 
It is, sure but Bus driver should be roleblockable. This is the first game I've played where that's happened.
Yeah if bus driver switched Paris and Giri, and meant to target Paris then sure it would get redirected onto Giri. But taking priority over roleblock when the roleblock is on the bus driver is where the issue comes in. And that wouldn’t be too bad, but the bus driver had unlimited shots too. So we literally had to kill them to do anything about them, which was also risky. It was just way too much.
They can be roleblocked, except when they self target, which Zorchic did. It's only because Zorchic targeted themselves each night that the Roleblock was redirected.

And while godfather may have scumbids, miller has the town. And town checks will never be fully trusted until godfather is dead. So what does godfather provide to their scumbuds? A sacrifice f necessary. That’s really it.
You raise a fair point, we could've given the Godfather a secondary role yes, perhaps it's something we can look at in the future for mentor games.

Miller on bmg won’t get lynched if they claim d1.
Giving them the tracker makes them feel too strong for their role even if it’s only a one shot since it’s another investigative role for town. They already had watcher and cop, and the indep. Not to mention bomb and a 2x vig in a small game. Seriously town could have done a mass claim and indep and vig shot the Worst claims. Or town just lynch them. You can nightkill one vig and block the other bit one kill will sill get tRhough.
I usually give my millers a one shot power, it's the players fault for assuming they are only a miller and nothing else. Having a secondary role might convince a miller not to claim right away depending on how useful they think it might be.
Who wants to be some useless vanilla in Mafia? At least with Godfather you have the benefits of the kill and knowing your partners. We considered a simple one shot tracker would be enough to offset the bordem of being the shittest role in Mafia, the Miller. And yes we do admit there were too many killing roles, it wasn't until near the end we realised the entire game could've ended on the first night if the vigilantes both shot Mafia and the Bus Driver redirected the Mafia kill.

And mafia had no investigative roles outside of rolecop, no way to get tRhough Doc except roleblock and first you need to know their role either bythem claiming or getting lucky with the rolecop. And toss unlimited bus driver into the mix that had priority over everything and mafia has a hard time.

Mafia is at more of a disadvantage than people think. They have to be really careful and try to keep the game from going to claims. It’s difficult in a role heavy game where town hAs basically every role that makes sense. Being able to communicate isn’t always an advantage as people think. It can pale in comparison if a town has a lot of firepower and if the activity is high enough, and the right leader.
You make another fair point, giving the Godfather limited shot strongman and/or ninja could've offset some of the issues you have, such as doctor and watcher/tracker. But again Bus Driver usually acts before every other role, just short of Commuter and a few other roles that affect actions.

Overall I'm happy of this feedback because this will help us consider different aspects, roles and gameplay we can look at next time we run it, perhaps we might ask a mentor or two to help co-host and plan, maybe eventually have these run by the community itself rather than the staff.
 
They can be roleblocked, except when they self target, which Zorchic did. It's only because Zorchic targeted themselves each night that the Roleblock was redirected.
That's the problem I have... Roleblock should take priority. Meaning Zorchic would have been roleblocked in other games.

EDIT: This is the order of actions I use.


I put Bus Driver in the slot below Jailkeep but above protection.
 
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They can be roleblocked, except when they self target, which Zorchic did. It's only because Zorchic targeted themselves each night that the Roleblock was redirected.
That doesn’t make sense though. Why does it take priority on others but not on the bus driver themselves? Why does it have to be only when they choose a target other than themselves? If roleblock is going to work on blocking them then it should take priority of who their targets are, otherwise it’s jsut too confusing and makes the role too powerful. And like I said, just that alone isn’t too bad, it okay to make a strong role sometimes, but the bus driver was also unlimited with self targeting. It was almost impossible to combat.
At least with Godfather you have the benefits of the kill and knowing your partners. We considered a simple one shot tracker would be enough to offset the bordem of being the shittest role in Mafia, the Miller
Godfather isn’t that fun either. You want to feel useful on a mafia team, but it doesn’t make you feel that way.

Though frankly I hate the miller role. Since it’s standard here in bmg to claim right away, and it seems to be in every game, it’s like giving town a free clear. Might as well give them an innocent child. I honestly see it as a pointless role at this point. I think sometimes it’s best to consider the sites standards when putting in roles. On a site where it isn’t standard to claim miller D1, it would be great.

it’s also great as a hidden role that the player doesn’t know they have.
 
That doesn’t make sense though. Why does it take priority on others but not on the bus driver themselves? Why does it have to be only when they choose a target other than themselves? If roleblock is going to work on blocking them then it should take priority of who their targets are, otherwise it’s jsut too confusing and makes the role too powerful. And like I said, just that alone isn’t too bad, it okay to make a strong role sometimes, but the bus driver was also unlimited with self targeting. It was almost impossible to combat.
If you target someone who gets swapped, you hit the person who got swapped in, that's how it works.
Bus Driver and Player B are swapped by the Bus Driver
If you target Player B, you can't be roleblocking Bus Driver because they already swapped, so the action does nothing, otherwise you'd block the Bus Driver but then you couldn't because they got blocked.
If you target the Bus Driver, you don't block them because they swapped with Player B, so Player B is roleblocked.
If the Bus Driver swaps Player B & Player C, but get roleblocked, nobody is swapped.

I really don't see the confusion.
Godfather isn’t that fun either. You want to feel useful on a mafia team, but it doesn’t make you feel that way.
More fun than Miller, at least they have the Mafia kill and private chat and can contribute to what actions everyone uses.
Though frankly I hate the miller role. Since it’s standard here in bmg to claim right away, and it seems to be in every game, it’s like giving town a free clear. Might as well give them an innocent child. I honestly see it as a pointless role at this point. I think sometimes it’s best to consider the sites standards when putting in roles. On a site where it isn’t standard to claim miller D1, it would be great.
Hence why I run it differently, usually with a secondary role, perhaps it'll give people a chance to go "oh maybe I shouldn't claim Miller because Zinn's games have Miller with a secondary role" if you see a Miller claim in my games you can bet they probably have another role attached. It's up to the host ultimately if they decide to use Miller or not. People complained when I ran a game with a Godfather and no Miller.

it’s also great as a hidden role that the player doesn’t know they have.
Yeah but then that makes the game have Bastard elements which means you have to tell your players in advanced.
Yes there's no rule about disclosing Bastard games (I think), but it's called Bastard because your players will call the host one if they don't tell their players, breach of trust. I know if I joined a game that had Bastard elements and wasn't told I'd get pissed at the host and never trust them or their games again.
 
It seems most of my comments were already done for me by Zinn.

Regardless, @Midorikawa we really appreciate your feedback here and you definitely give some great points like the fact that bus driver should have been toned down a bit and give the mafia some more power.
To explain those choices though, town has all the common roles because that is what part of this game tries to accomplish: familiarise new players with the most common roles in the game. As for the bus driver, I was personally expecting it more to create chaos and be more anti-town, but the constant self target prevented that. Where the main use was to redirect kills away from themselves. It was only night 1 where the bus driver screwed up.

Godfather isn’t that fun either. You want to feel useful on a mafia team, but it doesn’t make you feel that way.
I would have to disagree here. Using the current team as an example, I would have preferred the GF. Simply because
1. You still have all the powers as a team, there is generally no infighting in the mafia team which would prevent influence on the team's power usage
2. If gives me the security of safe cop checks and I've had multiple GF games where I made full use of it by playing with a bit more risk taking which, because of the safe cop check, made it a lot easier for me.
Though frankly I hate the miller role. Since it’s standard here in bmg to claim right away, and it seems to be in every game, it’s like giving town a free clear. Might as well give them an innocent child. I honestly see it as a pointless role at this point. I think sometimes it’s best to consider the sites standards when putting in roles. On a site where it isn’t standard to claim miller D1, it would be great.

it’s also great as a hidden role that the player doesn’t know they have.
As I said, because it is standard here, it was required to add it to a beginner game. Innocent Child isn't as common. The point of the role, in theory, is to weaken town, make them, and specifically the cop, suspect them more. As for the D1 claims, assuming you have no extra role. There is no reason not to do it.

Besides the bastard element Zinn mentioned, it also causes it to become unfair for that player when they get randomly accused for no reason. I don't think that is fun, unless you are aware as a full play group that a hidden miller mod could be given.
 
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