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Misunderstandings people have about the anime and endless dicussions

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Maybe now we can clear up misunderstandings people have about the anime?

Like:
Why is there so much frication between SuMo and XY?
Why is Paul considered the best rival?
Why is Gou "hated"?
Why is there friction between pokeshipping and amourshipping?

I just want that there arent useless and endless discussions about the same stuff over the past 20 years. Lets keep them in this thread and not outside of this one?

Be clear and dont attack anyone else. Have fun!
 
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I think Paul is the best rival because across the Diamond and Pearl saga he challenges Ash and his convictions by way of his completely opposite training style, which is quick to rile up Ash, consistently working. Ash is always fired up by Paul's do or die way of training him Pokemon, while Paul never misses an opportunity to mock Ash for his sentiment, even though both approaches are shown to have results. While Paul looks down on Ash, he does recognise Ash has some good techniques he adapts into his own strategies, like Counter Shield. Their six on six in Galactic Battles feels like it's earned the two episodes in how epic it is and how long they and the viewers have been waiting for it. It's also a good bookend to their Pokemon League match, which also provides closure on Chimchar's character arc with Paul and his Elekid, both pokemon having it personal with crucial battles in their second and final stages.


While Gary was Ash's first big rival, Gary wasn't around as much to push Ash to the limits and find the strength in himself and his pokemon. It was losing the six on six by Lake Acuity that made Ash properly think and renew the bond he shared with his pokemon and his drive to win the way he knew best. This drive led Ash and Infernape to master Blaze where Paul's harsh treatment had failed, and in doing so defeat Paul and Electivire in an electric quarter final Pokemon League match. This finally earned Ash respect from Paul, and the maturity from Ash not to gloat.

That's what a good rivalry is, two people who challenge each other to become better and learning from each other. Paul gave Ash the drive while learning that a little compassion goes a long way in bringing out the potential in anyone.
 
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Okay, here's why I personally consider Paul as Ash's best rival:

He was introduced very early-on and in a series with probably the longest linear storyline, so they had a good amount of time to develop his character. He had a clear purpose much like Ash and he's such a good character that you dislike so intensely in the beginning because he's an ass. He was the perfect anti-Ash to phrase it simply. As the story progresses, we see his character growing alongside Ash's. Making them tag team partners was so much fun to watch, two characters who mix together as good as oil and water, and clearly don't get along. He hits his peak edgy-mode when he releases Chimchar, which Ash decides to include in his team. Ash helps Chimchar in dealing with his trauma that he suffered from under Paul and promises it to help grow.

Paul hates him but that's not blind hatred to the point completely refuses to adapt or learn Ash's methods. He just struggles with understanding Ash's methodology and cannot comprehend how one can win with the way Ash is. You can clearly see that when he learns that Ash already defeated Brandon, someone who his brother couldn't defeat and Reggie is someone Paul admires quite a lot. They seem to have a good sibling relationship, which we geta hint of in the brief flashback of him watching their match alongside his Turtwig and him calling Reggie in Snowpoint City (?) as well as during the league I think which Dawn overhears. He challenges Brandon and loses miserably, which I suppose is the point where it hits him and starts questioning that his own methods may not be as superior or perfect as he had assumed to be and maybe Ash was on to something. While he does win the first full battle, that battle does have its impact on his character. For one thing, he notices how strong Chimchar has gotten under Ash. It then evolving right in front of his eyes was just icing on the cake.

When Barry challenges him for a battle in 163, he says that he's in the mid of adjusting his team and recommends battling Ash instead. That might have been the first time he somewhat indirectly complemented Ash (sorry if I missed something). He kinda lurks around in the background when he sees them battle. He also voluntarily helps out the gang against the TR machine, which coincidentally is the moment Monferno evolves into Infernape, it was another finger to Paul. He seems so shocked as Ash let's himself get swallowed in Monferno's Flame Wheel. Following evolution, he acknowledges how Monferno channeled Blaze's power and evolved as a result. In the end, he tells him that we'll meet in the league and that's where he's battle Infernape, even though Ash didn't have enough badges at that point. That was respect, something that Ash also shows when he tells Barry that after the full battle he realized what a good trainer Paul has become and that Barry shouldn't underestimate him. I also liked how he gets so angry when he hears about Sunyshore gym from Ash and says how it's the worst gym. Because regardless of his training style, he still respects the battling aspect of being a trainer. His feelings about Volkner were the exact opposite of how Barry felt, who said that it's the best gym since it was handing out gym badges without even battling.

Another time we see growth in his character is when he uses Counter Shield during the league. This was something that was completely Ash's thing, he was the one came up with it and Paul isn't too stubborn to see how effective of a technique that was. So he adapts it and teaches his Pokemon that, which is something that I really doubt he would have done when he is first introduced. In a way, it was a complement for Ash. Same for the time when he tells Electivire to use his move on the field, just like how Ash did it earlier in the match with Infernape's Flare Blitz to counter poisoned field. He sneered at Ash for being predictable and cannot possibly win with the same team. I like to think that Ash also learned that he's also wrong to rely so heavily on old strategies, which Paul takes advantage of by using Brick Break, when it's Pikachu vs Electivire.

The conclusion of their rivalry was perfection. Infernape battles against its own kinda-friendly-now rival, Paul's Electivire. Activates Blaze with Type Wild in the background, in full control and listens to Ash, and probably at his max power... Something that Paul could never achieve and Ash did that with his methods. Infernape proceeds to defeat his last Pokemon and making Ash the winner, thus proving that Paul got so many things wrong. Paul accepts that, gives a smile, and maybe even tries to give a genuine complement but the Flare Blitz recoil distracts Ash and Infernape's attention briefly from Paul. So, he walks away. He says it to Ash in the end that it has gotten stronger and Ash says yeah, which was another complement to Ash. As Paul is leaving, Ash screams that they should have a battle in future to which Paul smiles and bids farewell. The sunset with make a wish ost in the background is *chef's kiss*

Sigh... I love Paul :p
 
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I think people who dislike SuMo were shocked by the change in tone that SuMo had. They didnt travel much like in XY(Z) and I think that is why some people dislike SuMo. But saying SuMo is bad isnt right either.
 
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I can't really add anything useful to Paul that others haven't, and considering recent events I'm not touching the Gou question, but I'll explain the other two:

SuMo/XY friction:
Like you suggested, I think a lot was the show's tone and focus shifted hugely but part of the reason it's so controversial is that for a number of fans XY is what they'd always wanted the series to be, with flashy battles and a more mature, competent Ash who even had a love interest.

On the other hand there are a number of fans that didn't like the later versions of Ash and preferred his goofy version, and people who liked the slice of life/family elements of Sun and Moon.

Basically, on some places XY gets trashed, on others Sun/Moon gets trashed. It seems heavily dependent on the community; I've seen ones where people loved XY and now hate Sun/Moon and ones where people hate XY and love Sun/Moon, and of course there are people who like both series'.

2019 feel a bit like they're trying to mix elements of both series', but maybe it's just me.

Pokéshipping vs Amourshipping:
Pokéshipping was massive during the original series run. It and Rocketshipping were the big two ships; both had at least some evidence and since they weren't contradictory it was possible (and common) to ship both.
Misty leaving at the end of Johto was a huge shock that caused a lot of controversy, and there was some Misty Vs May shipping wars for a bit.
Also keep in mind that the series came out at the right time that for a lot of young people this was their first internet fandom, and some fandoms tend to make shipping Serious Business.

So Amourshipping being one sided canon went over badly with some elements of the old guard.
 
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Why is there so much frication between SuMo and XY?
Bias, closed-mindedness, and a refusal to assess SM on its own merits. XY was popular for many reasons and its dissenters were often silenced because people were too hyped. When XY ended and SM turned out to be something entirely different, it was a chance for those dissenters to have their voices heard. Hence, for a good while, nobody could comment on either show without making a comparison. The fact that both shows were so different to one another made those comparisons even easier. It was a clash of values and when that happens, people tend to get heated. People on both sides took criticism as an attack on their tastes, which was dumb but sadly a common thing in a lot of fandoms as people simply get too attached to shows and start to identify themselves through it.

Notably, things improved with time as those who disliked SM simply stopped watching and moved on, those who liked it stopped taking shots at XY because they no longer felt threatened, and those on the fence came around to liking the show once they recognised its strengths.

Why is Gou "hated"?
This has been thoroughly explained in other threads.

Why is there friction between pokeshipping and amourshipping?
A case of the old guard being usurped by a new wave of shippers. PokeShipping was the number one ship for Ash because of its origin and strong body of evidence, but then this new girl came along with a confirmed romantic infatuation with him which was more than any ship before it ever got. So you can see why there might have been some bitterness.
 
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Maybe now we can clear up misunderstandings people have about the anime?

Like:
Why is there so much frication between SuMo and XY?
Why is Paul considered the best rival?
Why is Gou "hated"?
Why is there friction between pokeshipping and amourshipping?
Most of these aren't even 'misunderstandings', just differences of opinion that can be argued in circles forever without a resolution. But I'll give you a quick rundown about why some people don't see eye to eye on some things (which won't change anything but whatever I'm bored).

1. Some people disliked the shift in tone when SuMo started because that series was goofy as hell compared to XYZ. There was also less traveling around and more broken patterns, not to mention that there were some really weird moments like Ash's glitter vomit, uvula face and twerking scene.

2. People saw Paul as a strong foil to Ash and a competent battler. While that's all good and whatnot I only liked that he was a good tactician, but I never will forgive him for how brutal his training methods were. He was basically A.J. on steroids and I don't care how many essays people write defending Paul's abuse of Chimchar.

3. I feel like I've typed so many responses for the 'why do people hate Go' debates so I won't partake in another long war against those who hate him. I'll just say that people view him as selfish because of his decision to focus more on himself than his Pokemon. Ironically this isn't that much different from how Paul used to act since for a long time Paul seemed to care more about winning (i.e. self gratification) than about how his Pokemon felt.

4. There's always gonna be friction between shippers. This is why I don't associate with any ships anymore. It's too much drama over romances that will never pan out anyways. It's cute if people think Ash likes _____, but we're never gonna see him with a girl (or boy) so it's all so darn irrelevant at the end of the day.
 
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1. The change of animation, the tone of the series, the slice of day episodes.. XY and Sun and Moon are night and day, but both of them are good. Being at a school made possible that we could have unique episodes like the Baseball competition for example.

2. Because for the first time Ash got a proper rival. And like in the games he got it at the begining like it should be. A guy who Ash antagonized with but both of them started showing respect towards each other with each battle. With each defeat... They grow up on one another. This is what Gary should have been. Of course they tried to repeat the formula with Shooti or whatever he is called and they failed.

3. Go for me is the Roman Reigns of the Pokemon Anime. They are trying to make me care for it but I can't. I'm really trying but his goal seems so unplausible. And when things seem to be interesting like his family or raboot it fails to deliver. And his attitude... I'ts really unstable.

It's still early but I don't know if I will ever like this dude. Shame...

PD: For those that are not wrestling fanatics like me Roman Reigns is a wrestler who was supossed to be the face WWE in order to prepare for John Cena departure. However despite having a good appearence, people boooed him out of the stadium due to WWE obsessing shoving it down trough the fans throats. Making him a good guy that acted like a jackass and even having a child like attitude sometimes and never changing it.

But then sometimes seemed that he started getting over with the fans and WWE made the same mistake time and time again even he defeated the legendary Undertaker at Wrestlemania. And in October 2018 he announced he had Leukemia and dissapeared for some time and when he returned he finally connected with the public until 2020 when he started getting booed again. Uff that was long.

Of course this is an anime and the other is wrestling but to me it causes the same feeling. It's my opinion don't kill me please.

A proof:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8s6PZ1Iwp4


4. I'm and Advanceshipper so...

I never understood the shipping wars. If you want Ash to be with Misty fantastic, If you want him to be with Serena, fantastic. If you want him to be with Go... Fantastic too.
 
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2. People saw Paul as a strong foil to Ash and a competent battler. While that's all good and whatnot I only liked that he was a good tactician, but I never will forgive him for how brutal his training methods were. He was basically A.J. on steroids and I don't care how many essays people write defending Paul's abuse of Chimchar.
Paul's horrific treatment of Chimchar is inexcusable, and at least he never went that far in training his other Pokemon. However Paul should have gotten some kind of penalty for the incredibly reckless way he abused Chimchar, since Nurse Joy was full witness to his indifference during the Hearthome Tag Battle Competition and a stadium full of people saw him send out Chimchar against Zangoose, the very species Chimchar feared. But if Harley was never penalised for the stunts he pulled on May, which should have gotten him at the least disqualification from their first shared contest, it's consistent lack of oversight. That's a big part of why Infernape's victory over Electivire is so satisfying, that it was Ash's empathy that brought out Blaze and mastery of it over Paul's torments and insults.

Another aspect to Paul's character was his relationship with his brother, trying to prove himself better. Reggie is the only person who can get away with speaking of Paul's insecurities, and perhaps Paul's final battle with Ash will give Paul some more insight into Reggie's mindset.
 
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I think that Goh can be a good character if he was not reminding every episode of his not plausible way of reaching his goal.

Why I said that?

We have no prove that if he catches lots of Pokemon he will arrive to Mew. Ash has a plausible goal: If he defeats trainers he will arrive to meet Leon one day

How I change that:

  • Goh main way to meet Mew is not by catching Pokemon, is by discovering mysteries of the Pokemon World.
  • So Goh is not a catcher is an explorer or an investigator wich also fits the whole Pokemon World tour it's also related to Pokemon Go since the main objective of that game is to go to places.
  • He discovers that Mew can cause unusual phenomena when he appears at places, so his travel arround the world are more than justified,also he likes going to ruins that are related to the legendary pokemon.
  • He has a troubled past which is unique with Pokemon main characters.
  • He catches Pokemon that he needs , he will still have a lot , but the pokémon he catches are there for a reason.
  • That means no catching spree.
  • Ash and Go have a good friendship however it can get really tense sometimes.

In the thread What if? Of this forum I made some long posts on how to implement this idea in every episode making little tweaks in every episode
 
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I think considering Paul/Shinji as the best rival or believing that Pokeshipping is better than other ships isn't a "misunderstanding" but rather an opinion. Not respecting other people's opinions (like starting ship wars for example) is very immature though.

I think the reason the opinions differ so much between certain groups of fans is because the franchise is so big and there are so many different types of fans. Like different age groups, genders and past experiences with the franchise.

If OS and Pokeshipping was a huge part of your childhood it's understandable that those fans are disappointed when they heavily implied in that one interview that Satoshi and Serena would get together if the anime ever ended.

Same goes for the Amourshipping fans who identified a lot with those characters and were disappointed when the XY characters didn't get any cameos at all and Satoshi's character "changed".

But I think it's also important to draw the line somewhere. I once watched a video made by an adult Youtuber who started crying because she hated Amourshipping since she liked Pokeshipping so much as a kid.

And in another video on an Amourshipping channel one guy compared himself to an "abused wife" because he wanted SM to change and be more like XY. I know that some people "play a character" in their YouTube videos but sometimes it's a little too dramatic. :ROFLMAO:
 
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But I think it's also important to draw the line somewhere. I once watched a video made by an adult Youtuber who started crying because she hated Amourshipping since she liked Pokeshipping so much as a kid.

And in another video on an Amourshipping channel one guy compared himself to an "abused wife" because he wanted SM to change and be more like XY. I know that some people "play a character" in their YouTube videos but sometimes it's a little too dramatic. :ROFLMAO:
Like, are these people for real? Are they really comparing spousal abuse to a children’s show?
 
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What does spousal abuse have to do with a kid's show?
 
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What does spousal abuse have to do with a kid's show?
YouTubers like to be over-dramatical as possible, specially if it's about something they don't like, just look at what happened with #changethechannel (their complaints were valid, it's the responses made by Michaud and Brad that fall into this).
 
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YouTubers like to be over-dramatical as possible, specially if it's about something they don't like, just look at what happened with #changethechannel (their complaints were valid, it's the responses made by Michaud and Brad that fall into this).
Something tells me they only do it for the views and subs...
 
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