Moves & abilities that need buffing/nerfing

[Zeb]

I don't agree with removing useless moves or abilities personally. They can always tweak them to have a use. I remember ages ago I suggested buffing Illuminate to give Dark and Ghost resists (like Thick Fat does for Fire and Ice) but someone said it would be better to just remove it (it might have even been in this thread I'm not sure). I don't understand the point of this mindset when they could easily be made useful. Synchronoise could probably be tweaked to be actually useful but since I don't know much about the move (I've never even tried to use it) I can't suggest anything.

Also re: starter abilities, they should just activate when you're inflicted with status too. So Overgrow, Blaze, Swarm, Torrent all boost moves when under 1/3 health or inflicted with a status condition.

 

[Lufenium]

I always felt Synchronoise was a more situational move than a viable competitive one. It got quite a big buff in Gen VI too.

In most situations its uses do seem pretty limited, but with proper foresight it could be a powerful move.

 

[Gengarzilla]

We obviously need to nerf the crap out of No Guard to make it ignore OHKO moves, that's for sure.

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

Get rid of the recoil damage from Jump Kick and High Jump Kick.

 

[Matleo]

Get rid of the recoil damage from Jump Kick and High Jump Kick.

The recoil is ok. Double edge sword motive needs to be.

 

[Zeb]

High Jump Kick especially should keep the recoil. It's 130 BP after all, removing that removes any real risk when using the move. Compare to other 130 BP moves like Overheat, Leaf Storm etc that all have drawbacks to using them.

Jump Kick is a bit different since it's weaker, but the recoil makes sense thematically so idk.

 

[MachDragonX]

High Jump Kick especially should keep the recoil. It's 130 BP after all, removing that removes any real risk when using the move. Compare to other 130 BP moves like Overheat, Leaf Storm etc that all have drawbacks to using them.

Overheat and Leaf Storm don't cause you to lose half your HP due to RNG. I agree that it needs to have some deterrent, but losing half your HP due to luck isn't ideal. Maybe receiving recoil equal to 1/3rd of the damage inflicted, or dropping the Attack stat each time HJK is used, so that it's more inline with other high BP moves.

I have no problem keeping the 'lose half your HP' aspect when your opponent uses Protect or Detect though, since that rewards players for predicting correctly.

 

[Zeb]

Overheat and Leaf Storm don't cause you to lose half your HP due to RNG. I agree that it needs to have some deterrent, but losing half your HP due to luck isn't ideal. Maybe receiving recoil equal to 1/3rd of the damage inflicted, or dropping the Attack stat each time HJK is used, so that it's more inline with other high BP moves.

I have no problem keeping the 'lose half your HP' aspect when your opponent uses Protect or Detect though, since that rewards players for predicting correctly.

But there's instances where you don't lose half your HP with High Jump Kick and can use it numerous times in a row and the move has no real drawback at all. Unlike with Leaf Storm and Overheat where every time you use it you are weakened. So its drawback is sufficiently balanced in that you don't get it all of the time but when you do get it you have to pay the price.

I think you're undervaluing just how strong the move is and how low 10% is. Sure you might get cheated and miss twice in a row or something like that but that's going to happen very few times. The only way I'd consider 50% recoil too much would be if the move had even less accuracy. But it's fine as it is, evidenced by the fact that Mega Lopunny, Hitmonlee, Mienshao and others commonly use it without complaint.

It's also the thing about people remembering the bad and not the good. You'll remember times where you missed a HJK but you won't remember all the times it hit because it hits far more than it misses and the misses cost you more.

Edit: In fact following on from your idea just make Jump Kick have 25% recoil and HJK have 50%. That way one doesn't completely outclass the other and both are usable.

 

[MachDragonX]

But there's instances where you don't lose half your HP with High Jump Kick and can use it numerous times in a row and the move has no real drawback at all. Unlike with Leaf Storm and Overheat where every time you use it you are weakened. So its drawback is sufficiently balanced in that you don't get it all of the time but when you do get it you have to pay the price.

I think you're undervaluing just how strong the move is and how low 10% is. Sure you might get cheated and miss twice in a row or something like that but that's going to happen very few times. The only way I'd consider 50% recoil too much would be if the move had even less accuracy. But it's fine as it is, evidenced by the fact that Mega Lopunny, Hitmonlee, Mienshao and others commonly use it without complaint.

It's also the thing about people remembering the bad and not the good. You'll remember times where you missed a HJK but you won't remember all the times it hit because it hits far more than it misses and the misses cost you more.

Edit: In fact following on from your idea just make Jump Kick have 25% recoil and HJK have 50%. That way one doesn't completely outclass the other and both are usable.

Your points are all true and valid, but the difference is that for moves like Leaf Storm and Overheat the risk/reward is under the players control, whereas with HJK it isn't. It takes away from the skillfulness of the game when such a damaging side effect is completely random. Losing 50% of your HP can literally decide the outcome of matches in certain situations. Yeah 1 out of every 1o times isn't a lot, but I still think it could be executed better.

 

[Zeb]

Your points are all true and valid, but the difference is that for moves like Leaf Storm and Overheat the risk/reward is under the players control, whereas with HJK it isn't.

The risk/reward is part of the player's control when you choose to use the move though? If you don't want to risk half your health use a different move.

 

[MachDragonX]

The risk/reward is part of the player's control when you choose to use the move though? If you don't want to risk half your health use a different move.

That's overly simplistic. There are plenty of situations where you have no choice but to use a certain move, otherwise you will lose or be put in a very compromised position with a high probability of losing.

Like I alluded to before, I agree with your sentiment that the move is balanced, but is it ideally so? That's where I disagree. There are plenty of other ways to balance an overly powerful move without having to bring RNG into the equation.

 

[Zeb]

That's overly simplistic. There are plenty of situations where you have no choice but to use a certain move, otherwise you will lose or be put in a very compromising position with a high probability of losing.

Like I alluded to before, I agree with your sentiment that the move is balanced, but is it ideally so? That's where I disagree. There are plenty of other ways to balance an overly powerful move without having to bring RNG into the equation.

But when you choose to teach it to your Pokemon you are aware of these negative qualities it has and you choose to use that move knowing that if it misses you will lose half your health. So when you're battling and in a position needing to use it you do so knowing its side effects and if you don't like being in that position where those side effects aren't ideal then you go back to the earlier part and put a different move on your Pokemon to start with. It's the players decisions before going into battle to use the move, you can't then complain that the outcome of the move is not what you wanted and it missed costing you the game, because you knew that was a possibility when letting your Pokemon learn the move. The same could happen with missing a Fire Blast and then something hits you in return and KOs you.

And RNG is a pointless thing to base an argument around in Pokemon really. The entire battle system uses it and you're essentially wanting the removal and change of everything involved with that if you want no RNG. Moves have different accuracy factors, crits being possible at any time, damage ranges/rolls instead of set damage, getting paralyzed turn after turn or sleeping too long and not waking, random freezes and whatever else. If you don't like RNG then Pokemon is pretty much the wrong game to be playing imo.

I still maitain the move is fine as it is (Jump Kick can have some recoil removed though, I would agree to that) and there's already Close Combat and Superpower as high-powered Fighting moves which have less of drawback if High Jump Kick doesn't take your choosing.

 

[MachDragonX]

@Zeb

We're not talking about RNG in general, we're talking about it being used in a very unique and particular context that no other move or component of the game utilizes. The fact that no other high powered move needs to resort to punishing the player by making them lose half their HP actually proves my point, contrary to your previous post, that it's an unnecessary and arguably unideal way to balance a move.

If a Pokemon misses their move, there are any number of outcomes that can happen based on what your opponent does and other factors like RNG. Versus if HJK misses, there is one singular outcome, and that is you lose half your health every time, leaving you too weakened to take anything your opponent throws at you.

And I don't choose to teach my Pokemon HJK, I need to, purely because most Pokemon who learn it cannot learn a more consistent and similarly powerful move like Close Combat. Pokemon like Lopunny and Medicham cannot learn Close Combat or Superpower. I can only work with what tools GameFreak gives me. Ask any competitive player over on Smogon's forums and they will tell you the same thing. If given a choice they would always go with Close Combat.

 

[Zeb]

We're not talking about RNG in general, we're talking about it being used in a very unique and particular context that no other move or component of the game utilizes. The fact that no other high powered move needs to resort to punishing the player by making them lose half their HP actually proves my point, contrary to your previous post.

You said "without involving the RNG" like anything that involves RNG is bad, I can only go on what you say. And it doesn't "resort" to punishing the player like there's no other choice, this is the choice of effect they wanted for the move not that there was nothing else they could make it do.

If a Pokemon misses their move, there are any number of outcomes that can happen based on what your opponent does and other factors like RNG. Versus if HJK misses, there is one singular outcome, and that is you lose half your health every time, leaving you too weakened to take anything your opponent throws at you

Yeah, the one outcome is a 10% chance to lose 50% of your health. Versus other moves like Overheat which have a 10% chance to miss and 100% chance to drop your Sp.Atk two stages which can leave you too weak to stop your opponent setting up or too weak to kill something else off without being forced to switch or be KO'd. You're once again completely ignoring how other moves also back yourself into a corner in similar ways. Sure it's that devil RNG, but you put the move on your Pokemon knowing what the moves effects are as I said before.

Your point here is contradictory anyway. You're saying that there a "number of outcomes" that could happen with other moves, but if you miss HJK your opponent is always going to attack you and faint you before the Pokemon does anything else. Which we both know is not true at all.

And I don't choose to teach my Pokemon HJK, I need to, purely because most Pokemon who learn it cannot learn a more consistent and similarly powerful move like Close Combat. I can only work with what tools GameFreak gives me. Ask any competitive player over on Smogon's forums and they will tell you the same thing. If given a choice they would always go with Close Combat.

So is this is more about these Pokemon not learning Close Combat more than it is about High Jump Kick's 10% chance to deal 50% damage then?

And besides you say "most" Pokemon that learn HJK are forced to use it? Some of the Pokemon that are "forced" to use HJK have different qualities that make it balanced and others just have other options. Since you keep saying I'm being simplistic and how there are other outcomes, let's look at your argument for "most" Pokemon that are forced to use High Jump Kick.

Spoiler

There's 10 Pokemon total that get High Jump Kick.

Hitmonlee gets Close Combat, but High Jump Kick is literally the first move on the first set because of Reckless which undermines your argument that CC is automatically better

Hitmonchan gets Close Combat and Iron Fist Drain Punch, isn't forced to use HJK and doesn't use it

Hitmontop gets Close Combat and isn't forced to use HJK and doesn't use it

Lucario gets Close Combat and a multitude of other moves and isn't forced to use HJK and doesn't use it

Blaziken gets Superpower and Low Kick which are fine alternatives that it can use which means you aren't forced to use HJK, so it uses it out of choice. I've seen people use Superpower Blaziken on Battle Spot too

Mienshao has Regenerator and Reckless, the former meaning if it misses it's not totally horrible for it, the latter I will assume means it wouldn't use CC over HJK because Reckless Hitmonlee doesn't so while it doesn't have other options it has fair reasons to use HJK and missing isn't totally bad for it. This is intended as a strategy by Game Freak, you can choose the higher damage output with Reckless or the safety net of Regenerator if you miss

Scrafty prefers Drain Punch on mosts sets since it likes to abuse the recovery with its bulk to set up and keep healthy, no forced use of HJK here

Lopunny has Scrappy, so Ghosts switching in removes part of the problem meaning only the 10% miss comes into play. Even then I've seen it use Low Kick in VGC due to Protect/Detect which you said you are ok with, so while Smogon likes HJK this is half-half as it does have other options they just aren't suited to Smogon's metagame. Also Scrappy makes Lopunny have completely unresisted STAB, if it had STAB Close Combat and STAB Return it would be stupid because there's no real downside there at all. The risk is a nice balance

Hawlucha doesn't really get anything else other Low Kick which is not ideal when it generally can't use Life Orb or anything due to Unburden, making it kinda weak. So the high base power move is needed

Medicham it's also true it doesn't get anything else and probably would use Close Combat over HJK if it had it, so that's another one

So realistically you are forced to use HJK on Medicham, Hawlucha, maybe Lopunny (depends on format) and Mienshao. But Mienshao was totally created to use it given its abilities so I feel like it's unfair to say it's forced to use it when it was clearly the intention for it battle-wise. So that's two to three Pokemon out of the ten that learn it that are forced to do so.

It seems to me like this discussion is highlighting that more people have become too accustomed to powerful moves with no real drawbacks and want more easy options like that. Close Combat's drawback isn't all that bad for it and can easily be spammed because of that. It's 120 BP, 100% accurate, doesn't lower your attacking stat and there's no real downside to clicking it. If anything this discussion is making me think that Close Combat could use a little nerf to make it less of an "easy" move and so there's more reason for people to consider other options like Superpower, Low Kick or High Jump Kick rather than wanting to rule them out as options because Close Combat exists and is infinitely superior in most cases.

 

[MachDragonX]

Yeah, the one outcome is a 10% chance to lose 50% of your health. Versus other moves like Overheat which have a 10% chance to miss and 100% chance to drop your Sp.Atk two stages which can leave you too weak to stop your opponent setting up or too weak to kill something else off without being forced to switch or be KO'd. You're once again completely ignoring how other moves also back yourself into a corner in similar ways. Sure it's that devil RNG, but you put the move on your Pokemon knowing what the moves effects are as I said before.

Risk management and tool preservation are parts of the game. If I use a move like Overheat, I absolutely know that I'm going to have to switch out next turn, and can plan accordingly. Versus HJK's recoil, where it's completely random, is a lot tougher to plan around, not in theory, but in practice. Yes, moves missing works the same way, but they don't take half your health too, which compromises the whole "tool preservation" aspect of battling to a MUCH greater degree.

Your point here is contradictory anyway. You're saying that there a "number of outcomes" that could happen with other moves, but if you miss HJK your opponent is always going to attack you and faint you before the Pokemon does anything else. Which we both know is not true at all.

Not 100% of the time, no, but a good percentage of the time if your opponent chooses to attack. The key difference is that loss in health. Your obviously going to stand a greater chance of surviving a potential incoming attack with all your health versus half of it.

And I didn't say that your opponent would attack and faint you all of the time, I said it weakens you to a point where the chances of surviving future attacks isn't too good.

So is this is more about these Pokemon not learning Close Combat more than it is about High Jump Kick's 10% chance to deal 50% damage then?

And besides you say "most" Pokemon that learn HJK are forced to use it? Some of the Pokemon that are "forced" to use HJK have different qualities that make it balanced and others just have other options. Since you keep saying I'm being simplistic and how there are other outcomes, let's look at your argument for "most" Pokemon that are forced to use High Jump Kick.

Spoiler

There's 10 Pokemon total that get High Jump Kick.

Hitmonlee gets Close Combat, but High Jump Kick is literally the first move on the first set because of Reckless which undermines your argument that CC is automatically better

Hitmonchan gets Close Combat and Iron Fist Drain Punch, isn't forced to use HJK and doesn't use it

Hitmontop gets Close Combat and isn't forced to use HJK and doesn't use it

Lucario gets Close Combat and a multitude of other moves and isn't forced to use HJK and doesn't use it

Blaziken gets Superpower and Low Kick which are fine alternatives that it can use which means you aren't forced to use HJK, so it uses it out of choice. I've seen people use Superpower Blaziken on Battle Spot too

Mienshao has Regenerator and Reckless, the former meaning if it misses it's not totally horrible for it, the latter I will assume means it wouldn't use CC over HJK because Reckless Hitmonlee doesn't so while it doesn't have other options it has fair reasons to use HJK and missing isn't totally bad for it. This is intended as a strategy by Game Freak, you can choose the higher damage output with Reckless or the safety net of Regenerator if you miss

Scrafty prefers Drain Punch on mosts sets since it likes to abuse the recovery with its bulk to set up and keep healthy, no forced use of HJK here

Lopunny has Scrappy, so Ghosts switching in removes part of the problem meaning only the 10% miss comes into play. Even then I've seen it use Low Kick in VGC due to Protect/Detect which you said you are ok with, so while Smogon likes HJK this is half-half as it does have other options they just aren't suited to Smogon's metagame. Also Scrappy makes Lopunny have completely unresisted STAB, if it had STAB Close Combat and STAB Return it would be stupid because there's no real downside there at all. The risk is a nice balance

Hawlucha doesn't really get anything else other Low Kick which is not ideal when it generally can't use Life Orb or anything due to Unburden, making it kinda weak. So the high base power move is needed

Medicham it's also true it doesn't get anything else and probably would use Close Combat over HJK if it had it, so that's another one

So realistically you are forced to use HJK on Medicham, Hawlucha, maybe Lopunny (depends on format) and Mienshao. But Mienshao was totally created to use it given its abilities so I feel like it's unfair to say it's forced to use it when it was clearly the intention for it battle-wise. So that's two to three Pokemon out of the ten that learn it that are forced to do so.

It seems to me like this discussion is highlighting that more people have become too accustomed to powerful moves with no real drawbacks and want more easy options like that. Close Combat's drawback isn't all that bad for it and can easily be spammed because of that. It's 120 BP, 100% accurate, doesn't lower your attacking stat and there's no real downside to clicking it. If anything this discussion is making me think that Close Combat could use a little nerf to make it less of an "easy" move and so there's more reason for people to consider other options like Superpower, Low Kick or High Jump Kick rather than wanting to rule them out as options because Close Combat exists and is infinitely superior in most cases.

My apologies, I didn't write that paragraph very well. I meant that those Pokemon who use HJK usually only do so if they don't have other options at their disposal, which your spoiler list exhibits perfectly. The only exception is Hitmonlee.

 

[Gengarzilla]

Arm Thrust should gain a boost, as it's power is worthless, even for a multi-hit move, especially since it's one of the few multi-hit moves that has 100% accuracy. Back in BW, I quickly swapped it out for Rock Smash with my Pignite, making even Rock Smash look good compared to Arm Thrust.

I'm in that group purely for Heracross's sake. Mega Heracross's Skill Link is obviously the only reason why Pin Missile was buffed to 25 base power per hit, as well as the only reason why it learns that, Arm Thrust, Bullet Seed, and Rock Blast. Giving Pin Missile a buff and not Arm Thrust despite a new Skill Link user sharing types with both of them is just so inconsistent.

 

[Matleo]

make Bulletproof counter also blast and beam moves.
Fire Blast and Ice Beam with Chesnaught come in mind.
Bulletproof only work on max 20 moves, thats not very much if you compare other options.

 

[firescorpion121]

Dropping caps on the second word of two-word names is just a formatting issue, but it should happen because having that word capitalized makes no sense.

Splash and Water sport should be merged while keeping Magikarp's animation for Water sport because altering how the former works would make it work just like the latter.

Since I'm not sure how many people have item gripes and this topic is tangentially related to this issue, heal balls need given to us earlier and/or tweaked to heal occupants of status conditions and to 1/2 max HP.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

Dropping caps on the second word of two-word names is just a formatting issue, but it should happen because having that word capitalized makes no sense.

Splash and Water sport should be merged while keeping Magikarp's animation for Water sport because altering how the former works would make it work just like the latter.

Since I'm not sure how many people have item gripes and this topic is tangentially related to this issue, heal balls need given to us earlier and/or tweaked to heal occupants of status conditions and to 1/2 max HP.

Seriously. By the time you have access to a heal ball, you pretty much have no use for it. Not to mention by then you'll probably have a full team and it'll be sent to the PC fully healed anyway.

 

[NoirGrimoir]

Seriously. By the time you have access to a heal ball, you pretty much have no use for it. Not to mention by then you'll probably have a full team and it'll be sent to the PC fully healed anyway.

I think the main purpose of a Heal Ball at this point is actually so your pokemon can come out of a cute pink pokeball, lol.

Splash and Water sport should be merged while keeping Magikarp's animation for Water sport because altering how the former works would make it work just like the latter.

Sure, but Splash's entire point is that it is completely pointless and funny, so giving it a point ruins it's appeal.