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Moves that Pokemon should/should not be able to learn

Dieter

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Is there any reason Alolan Marowak, Flareon, Entei, Ho-Oh, Heatmor, Litleo and Pyroar learn Rain Dance?
Even if in Japanese it's Rain Prayer, it still works with its ancestor worshipping theme/mourning theme

And not only might Ho-oh have summoned the rain that put out the fire, it's also known as the Rainbow Pokemon and is basically a minor weather deity
 

PkmnTrainerV

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Add Moltres to the list of Pokémon who can learn Rain dance but should not.
 

prog rocker

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Really, with the exception of Ho-Oh and the Fennekin* line no Fire Pokémon should learn Rain Dance.

*There's a type of optical illusion that happens in the rain called a "fox wedding" in Japan.
 

CynthiaLover

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On the subject of weather moves, Slowbro can learn Sunny Day.

Heliolisk, which evolves through a sun stone, can’t.

How did they screw up so badly
Well, the answer may lie in its abilities. Two of Heliolisk's abilities are Dry Skin and Solar Power. Dry Skin makes it take more damage from Fire moves and reduces its HP every turn when harsh sunlight is out, while allowing it to heal In heavy Rain and heal when hit with Water moves. Meanwhile, Solar Power increases its Special Attack by 1.5 during harsh sunlight at the cost of 1/8th of its HP each turn. So, really, strong sunlight actually hurts Helolisk more than helps it. While, yes, I do agree that a Mon that evolves with a Sun Stone should have access to Sunny Day, as it only makes logical sense, but at the same time, using Sunny Day on a Heliolisk is actually counterproductive, as two of its abilities cause it to lose HP as long as harsh sunlight is out. While it is true that Heliolisk's line does state that sunlight powers it up, but two of its abilities actually cause it to take damage from sunlight, so Sunny Day on Heliolisk would be more of a double-edge sword. So, that's probably why Heliolisk can't learn Sunny Day, as it would do more harm than good to it.
 

Rocket Zigzagoon

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Not move-specific, but Xerneas should be Ground/Fairy instead of pure-Fairy, and have some Ground moves to counter Steel and Poison attacks.
 

TechSkylander1518

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Not move-specific, but Xerneas should be Ground/Fairy instead of pure-Fairy, and have some Ground moves to counter Steel and Poison attacks.
Why is that?

Well, the answer may lie in its abilities. Two of Heliolisk's abilities are Dry Skin and Solar Power. Dry Skin makes it take more damage from Fire moves and reduces its HP every turn when harsh sunlight is out, while allowing it to heal In heavy Rain and heal when hit with Water moves. Meanwhile, Solar Power increases its Special Attack by 1.5 during harsh sunlight at the cost of 1/8th of its HP each turn. So, really, strong sunlight actually hurts Helolisk more than helps it. While, yes, I do agree that a Mon that evolves with a Sun Stone should have access to Sunny Day, as it only makes logical sense, but at the same time, using Sunny Day on a Heliolisk is actually counterproductive, as two of its abilities cause it to lose HP as long as harsh sunlight is out. While it is true that Heliolisk's line does state that sunlight powers it up, but two of its abilities actually cause it to take damage from sunlight, so Sunny Day on Heliolisk would be more of a double-edge sword. So, that's probably why Heliolisk can't learn Sunny Day, as it would do more harm than good to it.
Hasn't stopped Game Freak from giving Sandstorm to types that are damaged by it, though, or Hail to non-Ice types.
 

CynthiaLover

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Hasn't stopped Game Freak from giving Sandstorm to types that are damaged by it, though, or Hail to non-Ice types.
I don't deny that, which is why weather-related moves are always strange in terms of distribution. But I would call this particular case a smart move, as, despite lore, Helioptile and Heliolisk can't benefit much from sun anyway. Also, some types damaged by other weather types can get abilities to bypass that (Stoutland with Sand Rush, Heliolisk with Sand Veil, or Castform's Forecast, for example). Hail is the oddball, though, but most of the Mons that learn it are Water, and they already get access to a plethora of Ice moves to begin with, most notably Ice Beam and Blizzard, so it was probably just tacked on as a result. Weather moves are kinda in the department as Toxic, where the distribution of them is strange and often doesn't make sense, but in Heliolisk's case, GF probably didn't iron that flaw out. But, again, given Heliolisk's abilities, sun would do more harm than good anyway, so it's probably for the best. Like I said once before, Pokemon and logic can mix like water and oil at times, so I can't say for sure why Heliolisk doesn't get Sunny Day, despite lore, but given its abilities, it really doesn't work well with it anyway. It actually learns Rain Dance, which it actually benefits more from than Sunny Day, which is a direct contradiction to its lore. But, again, weather moves are very much an odd situation due to their distribution, especially in cases like this, so it's hard to justify any sort of argument on either end, but my theory is that, as long as a Mon has access to a move/ability that benefits from it, then that's probably why it gets that particular weather move tacked on. It's hard to say why, and Pokemon and logic don't always mix, but that's my theory on weather moves.
 

Bob Fizzle

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Well, the answer may lie in its abilities. Two of Heliolisk's abilities are Dry Skin and Solar Power. Dry Skin makes it take more damage from Fire moves and reduces its HP every turn when harsh sunlight is out, while allowing it to heal In heavy Rain and heal when hit with Water moves. Meanwhile, Solar Power increases its Special Attack by 1.5 during harsh sunlight at the cost of 1/8th of its HP each turn. So, really, strong sunlight actually hurts Helolisk more than helps it. While, yes, I do agree that a Mon that evolves with a Sun Stone should have access to Sunny Day, as it only makes logical sense, but at the same time, using Sunny Day on a Heliolisk is actually counterproductive, as two of its abilities cause it to lose HP as long as harsh sunlight is out. While it is true that Heliolisk's line does state that sunlight powers it up, but two of its abilities actually cause it to take damage from sunlight, so Sunny Day on Heliolisk would be more of a double-edge sword. So, that's probably why Heliolisk can't learn Sunny Day, as it would do more harm than good to it.
Every other Solar Power user gets Sunny Day, though. Moreover, I rather disagree with your assessment that Solar Power is a bad ability for Heliolisk; effectively, it provides a Life Orb boost for the user to abuse on top of the other benefits of sun, while still holding an item. (although to be fair, Heliolisk is the only Solar Power user that doesn't have any moves that are further boosted by sun, like fire-type moves or Solar Beam).

My question is: Why can over 300 evolutionary lines learn Sunny Day, most of which have nothing to do with harsh sunlight or clear skies (the move's Japanese translation), but Heliolisk can't? If Scizor or Forretress can learn Sunny Day, and fire is literally the only thing that hurts them, then why can't Heliolisk?

Personally, I think Game Freak missed the mark with Heliolisk by not taking the chance to make it a fire/electric type that could abuse either sun or rain, but that's not really part of this conversation, so /shrug
 

Rocket Zigzagoon

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Why is that?
Xerneas is a land-based X-axis Pokémon, but seriously is still pure-Fairy instead of unique Fairy/Ground (which fends off Steel and Poison weakness). Pure Fairy-type doesn't make sense for this Legendary Pokémon based on a land creature (in contrast to Y-axis Yveltal whose Dark/Flying makes sense).

Game Freak has wasted out this unique useful typing.
 

Jabberwocky

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Xerneas is a land-based X-axis Pokémon, but seriously is still pure-Fairy instead of unique Fairy/Ground (which fends off Steel and Poison weakness). Pure Fairy-type doesn't make sense for this Legendary Pokémon based on a land creature (in contrast to Y-axis Yveltal whose Dark/Flying makes sense).

Game Freak has wasted out this unique useful typing.
Honestly, Yveltal should have been pure Dark or Ghost, wings or not. Xerneas being pure Fairy makes sense - it shouldn't be Ground because it's not a guardian of or representative of the Earth - that's Zygarde - but of life itself.
 

TechSkylander1518

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Xerneas is a land-based X-axis Pokémon, but seriously is still pure-Fairy instead of unique Fairy/Ground (which fends off Steel and Poison weakness). Pure Fairy-type doesn't make sense for this Legendary Pokémon based on a land creature (in contrast to Y-axis Yveltal whose Dark/Flying makes sense).

Game Freak has wasted out this unique useful typing.
I still don't understand your argument-it sounds like you're saying that it should have been Ground/Fairy just to use the type or because of type matchups, not because of the design itself. Yes, Xerneas resides on land, but so do several other Pokemon. Should Pikachu become Electric/Ground because it's based on a land creature? Should Snorlax be Normal/Ground because it's a land creature?
 
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