Giant Octopodes
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As described on the tin! I include my premises, if you disagree with them you'll likely disagree with the results. If you disagree, I'm curious as to why, and what your considerations are!
For Offense:
1. STAB is dandy but Super Effective is better. In general I expect folks to bring 4 different types of moves, and for them to shoot for as wide of a pool of types they can hit for Super Effective Damage as possible, within the constraints of types they would either want their Pokemon to match up well against, or which they would be forced to match up against due to the opponent switching into it.
2. Not all types are equal in terms of the value of being super effective against them. Rock and Grass, you have 5 different move types which hit them for Super Effective damage. On the one hand, you're likely to Accidentally get Super Effective coverage against them while picking offensive moves in general. On the other hand, due to their incredibly poor defensive typing, they're far less likely to see the field in the first place, and when they do hit the field, it's likely with the expectation that they're getting hit for Super Effective damage if they get hit at all. So a type being Super Effective against them isn't nearly as valuable as say being Super Effective against Electric or Normal, which has only one type which is Super Effective against it, or Water or Fairy with two.
3. Types which resist your moves matter much less than those with weaknesses against them. Due to expecting folks to bring 4 different types of moves, and for them to have plenty of opportunities to guarantee neutral or better coverage, I fully expect that if something is resisted by all of a Pokemon's moves it's because that Pokemon isn't expected to match up against it whatsoever as a deliberate strategic decision. So sure, it's better to have 2 types you're super effective against and three which resist you (Dark) than 2 types you're super effective against, 3 types which resist you, and 1 which is immune (Electric) all things being equal. But in general it's all about what you CAN hit and not what you can't, beyond tiebreaker considerations.
4. At this stage we're operating in a vacuum. Clearly having a type which is super effective against 8 of the 10 best Pokemon in the meta for the game in question makes it FAR more valuable than being super effective against the 100 weakest Pokemon who never see the field and can be taken down by a stiff breeze regardless. Furthermore if a move has 150 base power, 100 accuracy and no recharge, a lot of other considerations go out the window. But this list is setting, move, and Pokemon agnostic, and is based solely on how much a given type brings to the table with its coverage.
With that said, here's the list of the best to worst offenses:
1. Ground - Hits Poison (only 2 weaknesses) and Electric (only 1), while also hitting Fire and Steel, and Rock besides. 5 Super Effective targets is tied for most of any move type, and they're quality targets too.
2. Fighting - Hits Normal (only 1 weakness), and is tied for Ground with the most Super Effective targets. Ice and Rock barely add anything to the party since they're terrible defensive types but Normal, Steel, and Dark would be plenty on its own, so they're icing on the cake.
3. Rock - 4 targets, Fire, Ice, Flying, and Bug. Of those Ice isn't impressive but the rest only have 3 weaknesses so they're reasonable targets. Unfortunately for Rock it tends to have significant overlap with other offensive types taken so its relative value can drop, but on its own it offers decently impressive coverage.
4. Ice - 4 targets, Grass, Ground, Flying, and Dragon. Grass doesn't mean much but the rest are decent.
5. Fairy - Only 3 targets but they're all quality targets. Relatively few types resist it as well.
6. Fire - Hits 4 targets, of which Grass and Ice are not great but Bug and Steel are both useful, and there's something to be said for quantity.
7. Grass - Hits 3 targets but one of them is Water with only two weaknesses, and Ground is valuable as well. Rock doesn't add much but certainly doesn't hurt.
8. Dark - Only hits two targets, but they're quality ones. Psychic only has three weaknesses and Ghost only has two, one of which is itself.
9. Psychic - Same deal, two quality targets, Poison only having two weaknesses and Fighting having 3. The immunity Dark has against it loses it the tiebreaker to that type.
10. Electric - Another of the types with two quality targets, Water only having two weaknesses and Flying having 3. The immunity Ground has against it and several resists hold it back a bit.
11. Ghost - This one was tough for me, because on the one hand it's two "quality" targets like those above (Ghost having 2 weaknesses and Psychic having 3, just like Dark). However one of those two targets is Ghost, so how much does it get knocked for forcing a speed based Mutually Asssured Destruction scenario? That's why it's this far down, you could argue for it being higher.
12. Steel - Fairy is a Quality target, with only two weaknesses, and it hits 3 overall. Ice and Rock though are not quality targets at all which is why it's this far down.
13. Water - Fire and Ground are decent targets (3 weaknesses each), Rock is not, and it has relatively few types that resist it. Despite being this far down it's not Bad, it's just not great either.
14. Flying - Similar boat to water, Fighting and Bug are both decent targets, Grass is not. Basically tied with Water through and through, could definitely argue to give it the lucky 13 spot instead.
15. Bug - As above, Psychic and Dark are decent targets, Grass is not, but significantly more types resist it. This is where we move from 'mediocre' or 'below average' to just 'bad'.
16. Poison - Fairy is a quality target, but it Only hits that and Grass, and Grass isn't very valuable. Add in 5 types resisting it or being immune to it and it's a rough situation.
17. Dragon - The only type it's super effective against is itself. Even more than Ghost, the only reason you're using it is for STAB, and if you are, it's likely a MAD scenario reliant on speed. Similar to Normal, you could argue it has decent Neutral coverage but Steel resists it and something is immune, it's far worse than say Water or Dark for that purpose.
18. Normal - Just like Dragon, but even worse, because it's not Super Effective against Anything. Only around for STAB / Neutral coverage, and even then likely not a great option.
For Defense:
1. Weaknesses matter a Lot more than resists. Other than Steel, you're not likely to have a high enough amount to reasonably force an opponent to attack into a resist, given that they have 4 moves to work from. While it's nice to resist 5 (or 10) types, vs Human opponents they'll have specifically targeted minimizing types against which they don't have neutral or better coverage.
2. The opponent having moves Super Effective against you loses you fights. To that end, the more you are weak against, and the better those types are offensively, the worse off you are. The opponent only has 4 moves after all, so they're unlikely to pick things only good against one type unless they're specifically targeting that matchup.
3. Immunities matter more than resists, but still not nearly as much as weaknesses. They can cover up weaknesses for dual types, and can pose challenges for the opponent beyond that which a basic resistance can. However they're still likely to just use another move type into them, same as they would a resist.
4. We're still in a vacuum. No average stats, specific pokemon, or common coverage types here. Whether or not Crunch is super common and thus how large of a relative weakness it is to be weak to Dark vs say Grass isn't on the table, we're just comparing their strength against offensive types in a vacuum.
Getting on with it, here's the list:
1. Fairy - Only weak to Steel and Poison, which are mediocre and terrible, respectively. Add in an immunity to Dragon for good measure and you've got a great defensive type.
2. Normal - Only weak to Fighting, which is the second best offensive type in the game. Still it's only one weakness, and it has an immunity to Ghost to boot.
3. Water - Only weak to Grass and Electric, both of which are good but not the best.
4. Ghost - Only weak to Dark and itself, which I'm honestly not sure whether it should be higher or lower based on that. Again it's tough, but two immunities (one of which is vs the second best type in the game) and few resists isn't bad.
5. Electric - Only one weakness is pretty compelling, even if it is a weakness to the best offensive type in the game.
6. Psychic - Three weaknesses, vs Bug, Ghost, and Dark isn't bad as none of those are top tier.
7. Dragon - Three weaknesses still, but two of them (Fairy and Ice) are vs two of the top 5 offensive types. The last one is vs other Dragons which again is just a bit weird.
8. Ground - Weak to Water, Grass, and Ice, Immune to Electric, it's just barely edged out by Dragon.
9. Fighting - Still 3 weaknesses, only one of which is against a high tier offensive type, Flying, Psychic, and Fairy in this case. No immunities and fewer resists though.
10. Poison - Just two weaknesses but one of them is Ground. That alone is enough for it to fall this far.
11. Bug - 3 weaknesses to Fire, Flying, and Rock. I feel like I might be undervaluing the resists vs Fighting and Ground, but this is a prime example - against a Ground type, they'll just toss out a Rock move and call it a day, so how valuable can the resist really be?
12. Fire - Weak to Ground and Rock and Water besides. Here's where we start seeing multiple weaknesses to high tier offensive options. Just barely bouyed by an abnormally large number of resists to go with it.
13. Flying - Weak to Ice and Rock, and Electric besides. The immunity to ground is the only somewhat saving grace, but as with Bug, they'll just use Rock.
14. Dark - Weak to Fighting and Fairy and Bug besides. The immunity to Psychic is substantially less valuable than an immunity to Ground.
15. Grass - Weak to Fire, Ice, Poison, Flying and Bug. The only thing surprising is that it didn't land lower.
16. Steel - No, I'm not trolling. This is where it ended based on my calculations. Being weak vs the two best offensive types in the game, and Fire besides, will do that. At the end of the day how useful are your 10 resists, when those who can will go for Ground or Fighting almost always, and that's even assuming they're Not targeting your type specifically (which, given relative perceptions of Steel as a "great" defensive type, is not a given). I'm sure folks may significantly disagree with this one but weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, and Ground are Significant liabilities, you have to admit.
17. Ice - 4 weaknesses, to Fighting, Rock, Fire, and Steel. No one is surprised.
18. Rock - Could it have been anything else? 5 weaknesses, including to Fighting and Ground. It's the worst one, and it's the worst by a Mile.
Obviously all of these can and do change drastically based on the game; based on how widespread coverage moves are, what moves are good on their own, what Pokemon are good, and the overall shape of the meta. The fact that everyone with a tail gets Iron Tail and everything with a Shadow gets Shadow Ball, or that Crunch, Fire / Ice / Thunder Fang / Punch are things which are widespread significantly impacts resists and weaknesses vs those types. But as far as my baseline assessment if all Pokemon had the stats of Manaphy and everyone had access to moves of every type, this is how I would see it.
For Offense:
1. STAB is dandy but Super Effective is better. In general I expect folks to bring 4 different types of moves, and for them to shoot for as wide of a pool of types they can hit for Super Effective Damage as possible, within the constraints of types they would either want their Pokemon to match up well against, or which they would be forced to match up against due to the opponent switching into it.
2. Not all types are equal in terms of the value of being super effective against them. Rock and Grass, you have 5 different move types which hit them for Super Effective damage. On the one hand, you're likely to Accidentally get Super Effective coverage against them while picking offensive moves in general. On the other hand, due to their incredibly poor defensive typing, they're far less likely to see the field in the first place, and when they do hit the field, it's likely with the expectation that they're getting hit for Super Effective damage if they get hit at all. So a type being Super Effective against them isn't nearly as valuable as say being Super Effective against Electric or Normal, which has only one type which is Super Effective against it, or Water or Fairy with two.
3. Types which resist your moves matter much less than those with weaknesses against them. Due to expecting folks to bring 4 different types of moves, and for them to have plenty of opportunities to guarantee neutral or better coverage, I fully expect that if something is resisted by all of a Pokemon's moves it's because that Pokemon isn't expected to match up against it whatsoever as a deliberate strategic decision. So sure, it's better to have 2 types you're super effective against and three which resist you (Dark) than 2 types you're super effective against, 3 types which resist you, and 1 which is immune (Electric) all things being equal. But in general it's all about what you CAN hit and not what you can't, beyond tiebreaker considerations.
4. At this stage we're operating in a vacuum. Clearly having a type which is super effective against 8 of the 10 best Pokemon in the meta for the game in question makes it FAR more valuable than being super effective against the 100 weakest Pokemon who never see the field and can be taken down by a stiff breeze regardless. Furthermore if a move has 150 base power, 100 accuracy and no recharge, a lot of other considerations go out the window. But this list is setting, move, and Pokemon agnostic, and is based solely on how much a given type brings to the table with its coverage.
With that said, here's the list of the best to worst offenses:
1. Ground - Hits Poison (only 2 weaknesses) and Electric (only 1), while also hitting Fire and Steel, and Rock besides. 5 Super Effective targets is tied for most of any move type, and they're quality targets too.
2. Fighting - Hits Normal (only 1 weakness), and is tied for Ground with the most Super Effective targets. Ice and Rock barely add anything to the party since they're terrible defensive types but Normal, Steel, and Dark would be plenty on its own, so they're icing on the cake.
3. Rock - 4 targets, Fire, Ice, Flying, and Bug. Of those Ice isn't impressive but the rest only have 3 weaknesses so they're reasonable targets. Unfortunately for Rock it tends to have significant overlap with other offensive types taken so its relative value can drop, but on its own it offers decently impressive coverage.
4. Ice - 4 targets, Grass, Ground, Flying, and Dragon. Grass doesn't mean much but the rest are decent.
5. Fairy - Only 3 targets but they're all quality targets. Relatively few types resist it as well.
6. Fire - Hits 4 targets, of which Grass and Ice are not great but Bug and Steel are both useful, and there's something to be said for quantity.
7. Grass - Hits 3 targets but one of them is Water with only two weaknesses, and Ground is valuable as well. Rock doesn't add much but certainly doesn't hurt.
8. Dark - Only hits two targets, but they're quality ones. Psychic only has three weaknesses and Ghost only has two, one of which is itself.
9. Psychic - Same deal, two quality targets, Poison only having two weaknesses and Fighting having 3. The immunity Dark has against it loses it the tiebreaker to that type.
10. Electric - Another of the types with two quality targets, Water only having two weaknesses and Flying having 3. The immunity Ground has against it and several resists hold it back a bit.
11. Ghost - This one was tough for me, because on the one hand it's two "quality" targets like those above (Ghost having 2 weaknesses and Psychic having 3, just like Dark). However one of those two targets is Ghost, so how much does it get knocked for forcing a speed based Mutually Asssured Destruction scenario? That's why it's this far down, you could argue for it being higher.
12. Steel - Fairy is a Quality target, with only two weaknesses, and it hits 3 overall. Ice and Rock though are not quality targets at all which is why it's this far down.
13. Water - Fire and Ground are decent targets (3 weaknesses each), Rock is not, and it has relatively few types that resist it. Despite being this far down it's not Bad, it's just not great either.
14. Flying - Similar boat to water, Fighting and Bug are both decent targets, Grass is not. Basically tied with Water through and through, could definitely argue to give it the lucky 13 spot instead.
15. Bug - As above, Psychic and Dark are decent targets, Grass is not, but significantly more types resist it. This is where we move from 'mediocre' or 'below average' to just 'bad'.
16. Poison - Fairy is a quality target, but it Only hits that and Grass, and Grass isn't very valuable. Add in 5 types resisting it or being immune to it and it's a rough situation.
17. Dragon - The only type it's super effective against is itself. Even more than Ghost, the only reason you're using it is for STAB, and if you are, it's likely a MAD scenario reliant on speed. Similar to Normal, you could argue it has decent Neutral coverage but Steel resists it and something is immune, it's far worse than say Water or Dark for that purpose.
18. Normal - Just like Dragon, but even worse, because it's not Super Effective against Anything. Only around for STAB / Neutral coverage, and even then likely not a great option.
For Defense:
1. Weaknesses matter a Lot more than resists. Other than Steel, you're not likely to have a high enough amount to reasonably force an opponent to attack into a resist, given that they have 4 moves to work from. While it's nice to resist 5 (or 10) types, vs Human opponents they'll have specifically targeted minimizing types against which they don't have neutral or better coverage.
2. The opponent having moves Super Effective against you loses you fights. To that end, the more you are weak against, and the better those types are offensively, the worse off you are. The opponent only has 4 moves after all, so they're unlikely to pick things only good against one type unless they're specifically targeting that matchup.
3. Immunities matter more than resists, but still not nearly as much as weaknesses. They can cover up weaknesses for dual types, and can pose challenges for the opponent beyond that which a basic resistance can. However they're still likely to just use another move type into them, same as they would a resist.
4. We're still in a vacuum. No average stats, specific pokemon, or common coverage types here. Whether or not Crunch is super common and thus how large of a relative weakness it is to be weak to Dark vs say Grass isn't on the table, we're just comparing their strength against offensive types in a vacuum.
Getting on with it, here's the list:
1. Fairy - Only weak to Steel and Poison, which are mediocre and terrible, respectively. Add in an immunity to Dragon for good measure and you've got a great defensive type.
2. Normal - Only weak to Fighting, which is the second best offensive type in the game. Still it's only one weakness, and it has an immunity to Ghost to boot.
3. Water - Only weak to Grass and Electric, both of which are good but not the best.
4. Ghost - Only weak to Dark and itself, which I'm honestly not sure whether it should be higher or lower based on that. Again it's tough, but two immunities (one of which is vs the second best type in the game) and few resists isn't bad.
5. Electric - Only one weakness is pretty compelling, even if it is a weakness to the best offensive type in the game.
6. Psychic - Three weaknesses, vs Bug, Ghost, and Dark isn't bad as none of those are top tier.
7. Dragon - Three weaknesses still, but two of them (Fairy and Ice) are vs two of the top 5 offensive types. The last one is vs other Dragons which again is just a bit weird.
8. Ground - Weak to Water, Grass, and Ice, Immune to Electric, it's just barely edged out by Dragon.
9. Fighting - Still 3 weaknesses, only one of which is against a high tier offensive type, Flying, Psychic, and Fairy in this case. No immunities and fewer resists though.
10. Poison - Just two weaknesses but one of them is Ground. That alone is enough for it to fall this far.
11. Bug - 3 weaknesses to Fire, Flying, and Rock. I feel like I might be undervaluing the resists vs Fighting and Ground, but this is a prime example - against a Ground type, they'll just toss out a Rock move and call it a day, so how valuable can the resist really be?
12. Fire - Weak to Ground and Rock and Water besides. Here's where we start seeing multiple weaknesses to high tier offensive options. Just barely bouyed by an abnormally large number of resists to go with it.
13. Flying - Weak to Ice and Rock, and Electric besides. The immunity to ground is the only somewhat saving grace, but as with Bug, they'll just use Rock.
14. Dark - Weak to Fighting and Fairy and Bug besides. The immunity to Psychic is substantially less valuable than an immunity to Ground.
15. Grass - Weak to Fire, Ice, Poison, Flying and Bug. The only thing surprising is that it didn't land lower.
16. Steel - No, I'm not trolling. This is where it ended based on my calculations. Being weak vs the two best offensive types in the game, and Fire besides, will do that. At the end of the day how useful are your 10 resists, when those who can will go for Ground or Fighting almost always, and that's even assuming they're Not targeting your type specifically (which, given relative perceptions of Steel as a "great" defensive type, is not a given). I'm sure folks may significantly disagree with this one but weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, and Ground are Significant liabilities, you have to admit.
17. Ice - 4 weaknesses, to Fighting, Rock, Fire, and Steel. No one is surprised.
18. Rock - Could it have been anything else? 5 weaknesses, including to Fighting and Ground. It's the worst one, and it's the worst by a Mile.
Obviously all of these can and do change drastically based on the game; based on how widespread coverage moves are, what moves are good on their own, what Pokemon are good, and the overall shape of the meta. The fact that everyone with a tail gets Iron Tail and everything with a Shadow gets Shadow Ball, or that Crunch, Fire / Ice / Thunder Fang / Punch are things which are widespread significantly impacts resists and weaknesses vs those types. But as far as my baseline assessment if all Pokemon had the stats of Manaphy and everyone had access to moves of every type, this is how I would see it.
