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New Gym Leaders and Elite 4?

Something that's been done before =/= traditional. If anything, it's less traditional than what you're suggesting.

Doing something new and different (as I suggested) is more traditional than adhering to a pre-established convention? If you're going to make such a backwards claim, then elaborate because your meaning is unclear. Is it because my suggestion tries to adhere to events established in Emerald and the other games? I didn't think not screwing up canon could be considered "traditional" in that sense.

Saying that also doesn't address anything else in my post regarding how it would have adversely affected the canon. Why would Wallace not be the gym leader if he's not the Champion? Juan taking his place as gym leader only makes sense if Wallace left the post for something else.
 
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Something that's been done before =/= traditional. If anything, it's less traditional than what you're suggesting.

Doing something new and different (as I suggested) is more traditional than adhering to a pre-established convention? If you're going to make such a backwards claim, then elaborate because your meaning is unclear.

That's not really that new and different, you're just sticking with what RS did and then retconning it. In fact, it's sort of like what BW1 did in the sense that the second run through of the Pokemon League was a different experience (due to you not getting interrupted by Team Plasma).
 
That's not really that new and different, you're just sticking with what RS did and then retconning it. In fact, it's sort of like what BW1 did in the sense that the second run through of the Pokemon League was a different experience (due to you not getting interrupted by Team Plasma).
And having Juan as a gym leader in one game and Wallace in another is "new and different" how? Aren't you just sticking exactly to what RS did in one game and what Emerald did in another? Whereas my suggestion tries to weave the two together? Surely you don't suggest integrating plots is less unique than cutting and pasting plot points.
 
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Wallace's clothes are ... uh. Winona looks good tho.




More spoilers below:

Looks like the E4 DO use Megas in their rematches.


  1. ======
  2. Elite Four Sidney - 909
  3. ======
  4. Pokemon: 6
  5. Scrafty (Lv. 70)
  6. Shiftry (Lv. 70)
  7. Sharpedo (Lv. 70)
  8. Zoroark (Lv. 70)
  9. Mandibuzz (Lv. 70)
  10. Absol (Lv. 72) @Absolite
  11. ======
  12. Elite Four Phoebe - 910
  13. ======
  14. Pokemon: 6
  15. Banette (Lv. 71)
  16. Mismagius (Lv. 71)
  17. Drifblim (Lv. 71)
  18. Chandelure (Lv. 71)
  19. Dusknoir (Lv. 71)
  20. Sableye (Lv. 73) @[~ 754]
  21. ======
  22. Elite Four Glacia - 911
  23. ======
  24. Pokemon: 6
  25. Abomasnow (Lv. 72)
  26. Beartic (Lv. 72)
  27. Froslass (Lv. 72)
  28. Vanilluxe (Lv. 72)
  29. Walrein (Lv. 72)
  30. Glalie (Lv. 74) @Glalitite
  31. ======
  32. Elite Four Drake - 912
  33. ======
  34. Pokemon: 6
  35. Altaria (Lv. 73)
  36. Dragalge (Lv. 73)
  37. Kingdra (Lv. 73)
  38. Flygon (Lv. 73)
  39. Haxorus (Lv. 73)
  40. Salamence (Lv. 75) @[~ 769]
  41. ======
  42. Champion Steven - 913
  43. ======
  44. Pokemon: 6
  45. Skarmory (Lv. 77)
  46. Claydol (Lv. 77)
  47. Carbink (Lv. 77)
  48. Aerodactyl (Lv. 77)
  49. Aggron (Lv. 77)
  50. Metagross (Lv. 79) @Metagrossite
 
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Two thumbs for Winona's artwork (actually make it three). Wallace's is...so-and-so.
 
Glacia and Drake

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These two were in the demo. But the art is good.
 
Based on what I've been seeing, it appears that Juan is gone. He's not getting any new trainer art, nor was he even listed in the text dump that was posted elsewhere (meaning that he won't even be mentioned in the game). If remakes always replace originals on the timeline... Does this mean that Juan no longer exists? That he's no longer a canon character? What implications does this have for the canonicity of the PWT and possibly, even, B2W2?

Strange to think about a Gym Leader getting retconned out, but I always suspected that this might happen to him. The Ruby/Sapphire and Emerald storylines aren't nearly as compatible with each other as Red/Blue and Yellow (even if FRLG didn't take anything from Yellow) or Gold/Silver and Crystal, and since these games are called "OmegaRuby" and "AlphaSapphire" instead of "DeltaEmerald," the paired games would inevitably be favored over the Third Version. That means, Steven as the Champion, Wallace as the 8th Gym Leader, and Juan... not existing.

Still, you'd think they could've, at least, given Juan a cameo or something, if only for the sake of his fans (and more importantly, the canonicity of B2W2).
 
Unless I'm mistaken, the original story for the two Water GL's was that Juan trained/taught Wallace, whilst being the GL, decided to leave, Wallace took over then, when Wallace ascended as Champion, returned as the role of GL in the Emerald Cannon. So, canonically speaking, everything up to the Wallace becoming champion part could still fit the timeline.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, the original story for the two Water GL's was that Juan trained/taught Wallace, whilst being the GL, decided to leave, Wallace took over then, when Wallace ascended as Champion, returned as the role of GL in the Emerald Cannon. So, canonically speaking, everything up to the Wallace becoming champion part could still fit the timeline.

And by the time of HGSS, Wallace either steps down or is defeated by Steven Stone. Then sometime afterwards and by the time of BW2, Wallace is the current Champion (as confirmed by the PWT man). Now however it appears that Wallace was never Champion, Juan never existed, and Steven Stone has always been the Champion of Hoenn. I don't know why Game Freak couldn't have Wallace as the Sootopolis Gym Leader and then have him become Champion during the post-game. That would mean Juan could the Sootopolis Gym Leader for rematches/post-game and Steven Stone could be the end-game boss like he was in Emerald.
 
Now however it appears that Wallace was never Champion, Juan never existed, and Steven Stone has always been the Champion of Hoenn.
It's premature to say this. Considering that Wallace battles the player with his Emerald team outside his gym, it's quite possible that he is retiring in order to train to be worthy of replacing Steven. The change doesn't need to occur in ORAS as long as they imply that it will happen in the future.
 
Now however it appears that Wallace was never Champion, Juan never existed, and Steven Stone has always been the Champion of Hoenn. I don't know why Game Freak couldn't have Wallace as the Sootopolis Gym Leader and then have him become Champion during the post-game. That would mean Juan could the Sootopolis Gym Leader for rematches/post-game and Steven Stone could be the end-game boss like he was in Emerald.

You think that GF would've done this, but it seems like they want to ignore Emerald as much as possible with these remakes. (There's also possible evidence of the Battle Frontier having been replaced, for example.) This, of course, causes MAJOR problems with the Gen 5 games, which obviously took Emerald as canon. Unless remakes don't really overwrite original games (and thus, Emerald is still canon), then what does this mean for the canonicity of the PWT and B2W2? Just how much has been retconned, here?

I get that they wanted to make these remakes more like Ruby/Sapphire than Emerald, but did that really mean cutting out everything Emerald added? Would it have been that hard to, at least, given Juan a cameo if they weren't going make him a battleable opponent? Did he really need to be erased, altogether?

(And, as someone who actually liked Wallace as a Champion, I'm not too keen on him getting permanently stripped of that position, either. Not all of us thought Steven was the best.)
 
Now however it appears that Wallace was never Champion, Juan never existed, and Steven Stone has always been the Champion of Hoenn. I don't know why Game Freak couldn't have Wallace as the Sootopolis Gym Leader and then have him become Champion during the post-game. That would mean Juan could the Sootopolis Gym Leader for rematches/post-game and Steven Stone could be the end-game boss like he was in Emerald.

You think that GF would've done this, but it seems like they want to ignore Emerald as much as possible with these remakes. (There's also possible evidence of the Battle Frontier having been replaced, for example.) This, of course, causes MAJOR problems with the Gen 5 games, which obviously took Emerald as canon. Unless remakes don't really overwrite original games (and thus, Emerald is still canon), then what does this mean for the canonicity of the PWT and B2W2? Just how much has been retconned, here?

I get that they wanted to make these remakes more like Ruby/Sapphire than Emerald, but did that really mean cutting out everything Emerald added? Would it have been that hard to, at least, given Juan a cameo if they weren't going make him a battleable opponent? Did he really need to be erased, altogether?

(And, as someone who actually liked Wallace as a Champion, I'm not too keen on him getting permanently stripped of that position, either. Not all of us thought Steven was the best.)

Sweetie, calm DOWN. Just because there's no art for Juan doesn't mean he's not even in the games, it just means he won't be battled and he's not important in the overall story. He could very well have a cameo. Also, yeah. Wallace was the better Champion IMHO but Steven's cool, too. :D

Just like Silktree said:

It's premature to say this. Considering that Wallace battles the player with his Emerald team outside his gym, it's quite possible that he is retiring in order to train to be worthy of replacing Steven. The change doesn't need to occur in ORAS as long as they imply that it will happen in the future.

Meaning that Juan could be introduced post-game without the possibility of battling him. I still think they're going to make him a contest boss alongside Lisia. That's what he was in the Manga and Anime canons, so maybe they want to make him one in the games canon as well. ^_^
 
Just because there's no art for Juan doesn't mean he's not even in the games, it just means he won't be battled and he's not important in the overall story. He could very well have a cameo. Also, yeah. Wallace was the better Champion IMHO but Steven's cool, too. :D

But, the thing is that his name didn't also didn't appear anywhere in the text dump that was posted elsewhere. Wallace, Steven, and the other Gym Leaders and Elite Four Members did, as well as the other NPCs, both major and minor. But, Juan? Nowhere to be found. What that means is that he, more than likely, won't even be in the game, not even as a cameo.

And, besides, why wouldn't they give him new art if he was in the games? Even if he wasn't battleable, he could still get a new outfit, and even if he didn't, the art style for the Gen 3 trainer art has become very outdated now. This is why Phoebe and Drake got new art, despite seeing no changes in their outfits.
 
Just because there's no art for Juan doesn't mean he's not even in the games, it just means he won't be battled and he's not important in the overall story. He could very well have a cameo. Also, yeah. Wallace was the better Champion IMHO but Steven's cool, too. :D

But, the thing is that his name didn't also didn't appear anywhere in the text dump that was posted elsewhere. Wallace, Steven, and the other Gym Leaders and Elite Four Members did, as well as the other NPCs, both major and minor. But, Juan? Nowhere to be found. What that means is that he, more than likely, won't even be in the game, not even as a cameo.

And, besides, why wouldn't they give him new art if he was in the games? Even if he wasn't battleable, he could still get a new outfit, and even if he didn't, the art style for the Gen 3 trainer art has become very outdated now. This is why Phoebe and Drake got new art, despite seeing no changes in their outfits.

It's already been confirmed that there's empty placeholders in the demo data. This is obviously for both Pokémon and items. And there's also confirmed to be location data missing (specifically for the Battle Resort) so who's to say that Juan won't show up on the Battle Resort? Yes, things look horribly bleak for Juan, but there's still a glimmer of hope.
 
Juan not being in the game doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

There's also 5 + X years between ORAS and the PWT in B2W2 (X being the number of years between Gen IV and V).

The current set up might actually be more beneficial for how things played out in HgSs overall. I recall that Steven saying he was the current Champion was a point of contention for many people, and led some to believe Emerald had been overwritten (now it has). Well, if Wallace didn't become Champion until after the events in HgSs, then Steven's comments are no longer out of place, while the events in PWT remains intact.

how did we get art work from demo coding?

The demo was a stripped down version of ORAS, and Game Freak neglected to remove everything that wasn't relevant to the demo (hence the massive file size).
 
It's already been confirmed that there's empty placeholders in the demo data. This is obviously for both Pokémon and items. And there's also confirmed to be location data missing (specifically for the Battle Resort) so who's to say that Juan won't show up on the Battle Resort? Yes, things look horribly bleak for Juan, but there's still a glimmer of hope.

True, although the Battle Resort, itself, is putting seven other Emerald-exclusive characters at risk for being retconned.

(Let's be honest, why would they call it the "Battle Resort" if it was the same facility from Emerald? No, we don't know enough about it to be sure of anything, but seeing as ORAS doesn't seem to be incorporating hardly anything from Emerald, I'm not getting my hopes up.)

Juan not being in the game doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Sure, just like Jessie, James, Kris, and Leaf all still "exist," despite not making it into FireRed and LeafGreen (Jessie and James) or HeartGold and SoulSilver (Kris and Leaf). It all depends on whether or not Emerald is still canon after the remakes come out.

Well, if Wallace didn't become Champion until after the events in HgSs, then Steven's comments are no longer out of place, while the events in PWT remains intact.

That's a good explanation, but it still isn't anything but a headcanon unless we actually see it in the games. Next Gen, I wouldn't mind seeing a GSC/HGSS-style sequel to the Hoenn games that clears any of these issues up, although I have a feeling that GF doesn't care about continuity nearly enough to do it. :-/
 
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