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New Pokémon Discussion

Which flying pokemon in B/W do you prefer?

  • Unfezant

    Votes: 9 4.9%
  • Swoobat

    Votes: 15 8.2%
  • Sigllyph

    Votes: 18 9.9%
  • Archeops

    Votes: 38 20.9%
  • Swanna

    Votes: 14 7.7%
  • Braviary

    Votes: 61 33.5%
  • Mandibuzz

    Votes: 7 3.8%
  • Pfffft, i'll use a legendary.

    Votes: 8 4.4%
  • No.

    Votes: 12 6.6%

  • Total voters
    182
  • Poll closed .

Ampharos King

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As far as the design goes, I'm not a fan of Enbouh. To me, it seems to be a recycled Rhyperior conceptualization (except for its legs and feet).

With the except of its defenses, its stats aren't a issue.

Enbouh's low speed is not so much of a problem; speed only makes the difference as far as defending goes. Its HP is very high but without a strong foundation to stand on, Enbouh cannot last more than a few turns in a battle. Enbouh has several weaknesses (especially the common types Ground, Water, and Psychic). In addition, its most powerful moves that it can learn through level-up are all recoil moves.

Attacks like Flare Blitz, Head Smash, and Wild Bolt that inflict recoil moves are powerful but at the same time risky. This is especially true for a pokemon with lots of weaknesses, low speed (very rarely will it ever attack first), and very low defenses.

Even the Dream World-exclusive ability Reckless doesn't help. Reckless increases the damage done through these attacks, but also the amount of recoil. Rock Head would have made it a total beast though.

Enbouh's vast movepool allows you to compensate for the recoil moves. Head Smash can be easily replaced by Stone Edge. Since Enbouh is very heavy (150 kg, roughly 330 pounds), Heat Stamp will guarantee a lot of damage for smaller pokemon. In competitive battling, however, most pokemon that will fight up against Enbouh will at least be half as heavy as it is (therefore the move's base power will be 60 instead).

Enbouh isn't really terrible; its high attacking stats, HP, and access to a lot of powerful TMs (both physical and special) is balanced out by low defenses, speed, and recoil moves. Trick Room teams might find a niche for the pokemon somewhere (seeing as it is rarely able to survive and attack in normal circumstances).

On another note, the Dream World artworks for each of these pokemon look amazing.
 
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Eitarou

Catnip it in the bud
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so um yeah

anyone else noticed this little quirk on Waruviles art for the dream world?

1287348631858.png


Glitch or on purpose....

who knows
 

bluesun

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so um yeah

anyone else noticed this little quirk on Waruviles art for the dream world?

1287348631858.png


Glitch or on purpose....

who knows
Ah... maybe it didn't extract quite right, the original is fine, I'll see if I can fix it and get a better one.
 

UtterDarkness

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The thing is, if you are talking about "variety" in typings, you're implicitly refering to the metagame in some fashion.

What I actually was implying there in response to JordanN's post about Charizard's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock as a Fire/Flying-type is that they shouldn't assign a pokemon a certain typing right out of the blue just to negate the weaknesses it would've otherwise had as a single type or make it more powerful. Both Chaoboo and Emboar should've been Fire/Dark instead because I heard they're both based upon Chinese pig demons and the latter happens to have an uncanny resemblance to Ganon from the old Zelda games.
 

RudolphMilotic

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They shouldn't assign a pokemon a certain typing right out of the blue just to negate the weaknesses it would've otherwise had as a single type or make it more powerful. Both Chaoboo and Emboar should've been Fire/Dark instead because I heard they're both based upon Chinese pig demons and the latter happens to have an uncanny resemblance to Ganon from the old Zelda games.

I don't think Game Freak gave to Chaoboo and Enbuoh the Fire/Fighting type combo just because they would be otherwise weak to Stealth Rock (not all people play Singles and Stealth Rock isn't as widespread in BW as it was in DPtHGSS), and I don't see why they should be part Dark-type because there is nothing on their designs that strikes me as evil or that evocates darkness. Being based on demons or not doesn't count either because Game Freak could just use the demons as an inspiration, not directly reflecting what they portray or embody.

The Ganon theory is good, but aside from being pig-like monsters there isn't anything else that is similar between the two.

Ampharos King said:
Trick Room teams might find a niche for the pokemon somewhere (seeing as it is rarely able to survive and attack in normal circumstances).

I guess you already have tested Enbuoh's defensive capabilities, watched some Random Match/Wi-Fi Club Battle Videos or something like that; if not, stop assuming things that you can't back up.

Enbuoh is not by any means a defensive Pokémon but with a Base 110 HP is capable of resisting a couple of hits. I know it because of some testing I did in both the Random Match and the Battle Subway's Super Single mode, and the results were far from being disappointing. For example, an opposing Enbuoh from the Battle Subway only took about 50% from a Dragon Pulse of my Life Orb Timid Sazandra (31 IV in Sp. Attack) and KO it back with Hammer Arm. If you run some calculations you'll find that, for example, a Modest Choice Specs Sazandra can't OHKO a Sassy Enbuoh with 252/252 EVs in HP and Sp. Defense with Draco Meteor, something impressive to say the least for an offensive Pokémon. Maybe someone is thinking why one should waste Enbuoh's sweeper potential with a Sassy nature, but the example was aiming to show that Enbuoh's not that easy to KO as many people think. With some support and Curse, it could be a very viable option for a 2-on-2 or Triple battle Trick Room team.

Also, Enbuoh's isn't that slow: a Choice Scarf mixed set could use Fire Blast/Overheat, Superpower, Stone Edge and Grass Knot/Hidden Power/Boil Over/Wild Bolt to cause some problems for the opponent, and with a Hasty/Naive nature it can outspeed beneficial-nature Pokémon with a Base Speed of 120. Things that sets apart Enbuoh's from either Blaziken or Infernape are Wild Bolt, Boil Over, slightly better Attack, Grass Knot in the case of Blaziken (though less Sp. Attack) and much better HP in the case of both.

By the way, for the above example, I forgot to mention that Sazandra has a 95% chance to be OHKOed by the same Sassy Enbuoh with Hammer Arm; it will be a 100% if it has taken some damage from previous attacks or Stealth Rock.
 
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Super Seaking

追放されたバカ
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I think Fire/Ground would have been a good typing for Emboar, its an underrated type combo. It only has two weaknesses; Ground and Water. Fire/Fighting already had the Ground weakness, and the x4 Water weakness is manageable. It also keeps that nice resistance to Stealth Rock. And its resistances are almost identical. The Ground typing fits because Emboar is a pig, and pigs often roll around in dirt and mud.
 
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Sanic Hegehog

Ur 2 Slow!!
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I still say that Emboar is too inferior to justify anything. Sure using a choice scarf can help it, but then again you could do the same for Blaziken and Infernape. You can mix sweep, but again Blaziken and Infernape can due it better with higher speed. You can go all out physical attack, but once again inferior due to lower speed and lack of sword dance.

It's high Hp stat goes to waste thanks to Flare Blitz and Wild Bolt spamming with weather, status, and entry hazards also being factored most of the time, and it boosts the lowest special attack of the fire type starters (though admittedly still usable)

The only reason I can think of uses for Emboar thats not outclassed is for access to Head smash and Wild Bolt with Reckless and being a decent Trick Room sweeper.
 

RudolphMilotic

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I still say that Emboar is too inferior to justify anything.

The only reason I can think of uses for Emboar thats not outclassed is for access to Head smash and Wild Bolt with Reckless and being a decent Trick Room sweeper.

Perhaps inferior to many other Pokémon, but surprisingly better than what most people give credit for, and a much superior option compared to the overrated Jalorda and the boring Daikenki.

Speaking of Reckless and recoil moves, I don't think why people think it's the only way to go with Enbuoh. Personally, I'm not that into the competitive metagame of Singles (I play more Doubles and now Triples) and I like to have variety in my teams, so I will use Enbuoh over Blaziken or Infernape from time to time, never thinking of one of them "outclassing" the others. Besides, many things I've stated speak for themselves of how Enbuoh should differentiate itself from the fowl and the ape.
 

#Daisuke#

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I still say that Emboar is too inferior to justify anything. Sure using a choice scarf can help it, but then again you could do the same for Blaziken and Infernape. You can mix sweep, but again Blaziken and Infernape can due it better with higher speed. You can go all out physical attack, but once again inferior due to lower speed and lack of sword dance.

It's high Hp stat goes to waste thanks to Flare Blitz and Wild Bolt spamming with weather, status, and entry hazards also being factored most of the time, and it boosts the lowest special attack of the fire type starters (though admittedly still usable)

The only reason I can think of uses for Emboar thats not outclassed is for access to Head smash and Wild Bolt with Reckless and being a decent Trick Room sweeper.

Going along with RudolphMilotic here. I honestly don't see why people keep bringing up Emboar's recoil attacks. Emboar has such a diverse movepool, it doesn't need to rely on them.

Like I said in my previous post, Nitro Charge and Hammer Arm are good moves to give Emboar under certain circumstances. Nitro Charge raises its attack AND speed. Say the opposing Pokemon doesn't take down Emboar in one hit, Emboar attacks it with Nitro Charge. Its speed has risen and it ends up attacking first. Using Heat Stamp or something with STAB, it KO's the opponent. You could make a Hammer Arm strategy work easily if you're using a Pokemon that is able to counter the speed loss. For example, Emboar uses Hammer Arm. Its speed has decreased. Gamageroge (Or whatever other Pokemon) uses Mud Shot and lowers the opponent's speed. Emboar is faster than the opponent again and KO's it. If not, spam Hammer Arm. Emboar doesn't have the greatest speed afterall.

All I'm saying is that Emboar isn't dependant on recoiling moves. Instead of inflicting slow death upon itself, Emboar can use the other moves it can learn. They might not be as strong, but they're hell-of-alot useful, believe it or not.
 

Envoy

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Perhaps inferior to many other Pokémon, but surprisingly better than what most people give credit for, and a much superior option compared to the overrated Jalorda and the boring Daikenki.

Speaking of Reckless and recoil moves, I don't think why people think it's the only way to go with Enbuoh. Personally, I'm not that into the competitive metagame of Singles (I play more Doubles and now Triples) and I like to have variety in my teams, so I will use Enbuoh over Blaziken or Infernape from time to time, never thinking of one of them "outclassing" the others. Besides, many things I've stated speak for themselves of how Enbuoh should differentiate itself from the fowl and the ape.

Most people think of Embuoh as a recoil abuser because, to the casual observer, that's what he's built for. He's got excellent HP and Attack stats and all his best moves are recoil based. In fact, he learns almost (or at least a helluva lot) all of the strongest recoil moves in the game. Throw in his Dream World ability, which abuses recoil and... can you blame people for thinking recoil moves are what he's good for?

And most of the uses you've mentioned for Embuoh are, in fact, done better by Blaziken or the monkey. Blaze Blaziken makes a better Scarf user because of his better (but not good enough to be redundant) speed and overall offensive stats (120/110 > 123/100). Both the monkey and Speed Boost Blaziken outclass Embuoh in any kind of sweeping role because of their better speeds and movepools. Sweepers, by definition, like speed. Embuoh lacks it, being the third slowest starter of all time (Torterra being the slowest and Swampert and Empoleon tie for second place). This means that they'll make much better use out of Choice items (as they can attack without taking damage and thus have more staying power), Life Orb, set up moves (SD and NP), offensive pinch berries, etc.

The truth is that there are more ways of improving your damage output than of increasing your speed. Blaziken and the monkey don't really mind having slightly lower offensive stats to Embuoh (and even then, it's only on the physical side) since there are PLENTY of ways around this. Embuoh, on the other hand, does mind the speed issue. Again, if I want to slap on a scarf on someone, I'll just put it on Blaziken so he can outspeed more threats... or I'll just use Speed Boost. The monkey's already fast enough that using a scarf on it is actually a pretty big waste of time.

Fact is that outside some niche roles, Embuoh is largely outclassed by his Fire/Fighting bretheren and will likely wind up NU this Generation. To be fair though, I think all of the Isshu Starters will wind up NU this Generation.
 

RudolphMilotic

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Fact is that outside some niche roles, Embuoh is largely outclassed by his Fire/Fighting bretheren and will likely wind up NU this Generation. To be fair though, I think all of the Isshu Starters will wind up NU this Generation.

And everything you brought was already posted by other users, thus my point stands. Nevertheless, I don't care for Singles tiers or usability so Enbuoh is still a pretty solid choice for my tastes. "Outclassing" is something I never think of when constructing a team: it would be pointless to build teams if we're always influenced to what most people guess it's the best to use and going that way instead of what I actually want. That's one of the few reasons I don't play Singles and, again, I enjoy having variety from time to time even if that means I'll have a harder time defeating an opponent or that I "deserve" to lose.
 

Envoy

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And everything you brought was already posted by other users, thus my point stands. Nevertheless, I don't care for Singles tiers or usability so Enbuoh is still a pretty solid choice for my tastes. "Outclassing" is something I never think of when constructing a team: it would be pointless to build teams if we're always influenced to what most people guess it's the best to use and going that way instead of what I actually want. That's one of the few reasons I don't play Singles and, again, I enjoy having variety from time to time even if that means I'll have a harder time defeating an opponent or that I "deserve" to lose.

And largely, I can honestly agree to this principle. Now, I don't play doubles, much less triples, so I'm going to have to defer to you in that regard. But singles, which is where most usage tiers come from and, by consequence, most people's perception of a Pokemon, does matter when we're looking at a Pokemon competitively. Even in doubles, I can't really see Embuoh being too high in usage since it doesn't have absolutely anything that helps it or is geared towards helping out it's teammates. In multiple Pokemon battles (doubles and triples), you'd think Pokemon with abilities like Cherrim's or Lightningrod would be the highest ranked, but again, I'm not an expert in this regard.

Still, I can see that you use the Pokemon you like, regardless of tier. I must say, I like to think the same way. My team is composed of my favorites, regardless of tier (I have Meganium on the same team as Metagross. Watch me care) and I can definitely respect that.

Back to Embuoh though (and keep in mind that I'm a single's battler, so I'm keeping it within this context), I'm going to say the same thing I say for all the Isshu Starters. They all have their uses, their very niche uses, but in general, they fail to stand out enough to warrant much use. There are plenty of better choices out there:


Jaroda: Venusaur, Meganium, Sceptile, Roserade, list goes on

Embuo: Blaziken, the monkey

Daikenki: Name a Water type, any Water type. Chances are it's better than Daikenki at something.
 

Xellos-_^

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i am really getting sick and tire of seeing pendra in the battle subway. i had more losses to this guy then to any other poke.
 

winstein

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Everything but Pururill.


Also, some sprites have some sort of crop issue. I need a certain Pokemon in order to try and figure out the problem, but I have none of the ones with issues. Oh well, I'll try and figure out some way.
Also, feel free to repost this sheet whereever you want.

Sadly there is a portion of Pokemon missing on the list. I understand the 5th Generation legendary Pokemon are not on the list, but it would be nice to see the following: Pururiru (like you said), female Burunkeru, Gobitto, Goruggo, Kirikizan there.

Thanks for reading.
 

Dizzard

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Everything but Pururill.

I can't get to see this properly :/ I downloaded it but it doesn't matter what program I bring it up in it's all fuzzy.

Is it supposed to be so fuzzy? Or is anyone getting a clear view?
 

bluesun

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593Burungel_Pink_Dream.png

The Gobit and Kirikizan lines don't seem to have art yet.
And Pururill is one that didn't extract right(it's supposed to be in the blank square by Burungel) and I've been trying to fix.
 

winstein

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593Burungel_Pink_Dream.png

The Gobit and Kirikizan lines don't seem to have art yet.
And Pururill is one that didn't extract right(it's supposed to be in the blank square by Burungel) and I've been trying to fix.

Thanks bluesun! Just what I needed for my new avatar.
 
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