On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspiration

[Falconwing]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

Rellik, do you honestly believe that these ideas are original and not taken from other sources?

 

[Rellik]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

Rellik, do you honestly believe that these ideas are original and not taken from other sources?

I never said that at all. If anything, I think this theory is pretty valid, considering the fact that Torterra is called the Continent Pokemon. All I'm saying is that the person writing these articals doesn't seem to offer up any official proof that these articles are really the inspiration behind these Pokemon. As far as I can tell, they're all based on the observations and opinions of the author, and as logical or sensical as they might be, without actual proof, it's still just fan-wank.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I never said that at all. If anything, I think this theory is pretty valid, considering the fact that Torterra is called the Continent Pokemon. All I'm saying is that the person writing these articals doesn't seem to offer up any official proof that these articles are really the inspiration behind these Pokemon. As far as I can tell, they're all based on the observations and opinions of the author, and as logical or sensical as they might be, without actual proof, it's still just fan-wank.

The articles are, absolutely, my own observations and opinions. Hence the disclaimer before each article, and the qualifier in the blurb that these are the likely origins of the Pokemon concerned.

There is no official Game Freak list of what was based on what, but when there are clear parallels between Pokemon and real animals/mythological concepts, I think it's reasonable to make those connections. In these articles - especially where there's debate amongst fans as to a Pokemon's origins - I always try to state my case, giving my reasons for believing that Pokemon x is based on animal y.

I'm as wary of spurious arguments as anyone, and there are many Pokemon I'll probably never cover in these articles, just because there isn't enough evidence to point to a definite origin. When writing these columns I ask myself three questions: Does the Pokemon in question have a definite origin, do I know enough about it for an article, and can I make it interesting? If the answer's no for the last two questions, it can still potentially change to yes as I research more about the subject. But if it's no for the first question, it's almost always going to remain no.

Ebonwumon from Digimon was the first incarnation of the Gaia Tortoise that I ever knew, Digimon made roughly 2000 character designs while pokemon only did a little more than 151 at the start.

I don't know much about Digimon, but having taken a look at Ebunwumon, it seems - as you've noted - to be based on a related myth, the Black Tortoise/Genbu. I researched this as a potential origin for Torterra, and there are definite similarities, but one of the defining characteristics of the Black Tortoise is that it's both a tortoise and a snake (hence Ebonwumon and various other depictions having two heads). The Bulbapedia article also mentions the minogame, which has similar characteristics, but I ended up not covering them in the column, seeing as I already had several versions of the myth in there.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I liked the article.

When I saw the Turtwig line for the first time (when D/P were still in development), I thought they were the fusion between turtles/tortoises and plants. When I read this article, I realized that they were a lot more than that. Keep the articles coming.

 

[Sylver Hummingbird]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the turtle from avatar the last airbender

The Lion Turtle right?
This story was interesting. Especially the dumb old woman at the beginning.

 

[Kyoto Tushoni]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I never said that at all. If anything, I think this theory is pretty valid, considering the fact that Torterra is called the Continent Pokemon. All I'm saying is that the person writing these articals doesn't seem to offer up any official proof that these articles are really the inspiration behind these Pokemon. As far as I can tell, they're all based on the observations and opinions of the author, and as logical or sensical as they might be, without actual proof, it's still just fan-wank.

Well, you saying its a 'fan-wank' and the and then saying that there is some logical observations is kind of contradictory isn't it? I mean just about all pokemon derive from some sort of real-life creature, even if they are portrayed in myth.
Basically whats going on here is that there are a bunch of unimformed kids that come on here, and 1 person has brought all the information based on and related to that Pokemon to show that there is more to it than just some turn-based RPG cock fighting.
I'm sure a good amount of people know some of this stuff, but think of all the pathetic and dumb kids with parents that don't tell them anything....they are learning something new!

 

[Enzap]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

"It's just turtles all the way down!" I lol'd when i read that. I always just assumed that they were just getting creative with a tortoise. I never imagined that turtwig actually had a story behind it!

 

[tyler212]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

The Lion Turtle right?
This story was interesting. Especially the dumb old woman at the beginning.

yeah the lion turtle, and maybe the island turtle in yugioh if i'm making the right connetions in my skull

 

[Rellik]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

The articles are, absolutely, my own observations and opinions. Hence the disclaimer before each article, and the qualifier in the blurb that these are the likely origins of the Pokemon concerned.

I don't see anything like that in this latest piece. For one thing, nothing in it reads like an opinion piece, and everything is written with a sense of certainty. You aren't saying that the Turtwig line is most likely based on the World Turtle, you're saying, and I quote: "Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra are all inspired by the concept of the World Turtle..." That doesn't look like an opinion to me.

And the closest thing to a disclaimer is the part about the editorial not necessarily representing the views of Bulbagarden, and personally, while that might work for pieces like the one about HG/SS a while back, I find it horribly inappropriate for this kind of piece. For one thing, you have to remember that "editorial" is a technical term, and that most people probably can't tell the difference between one and an actual news article. We've been using the terms interchangeably, and when you combine that with the factual tone of the piece, you can see how the line gets even more blurred.

Now, before this goes any further, I'd just like to say that my issue here isn't really with these pieces themselves. I've actually read each and every one of them, and I think they're all very interesting. I especially liked the one about Manaphy and Phione. My only concern is that when people see these very factual sounding opinion pieces on Bulbagarden, one of the most popular Pokemon information networks, that they'll think that they're reading facts, not opinions.

Well, you saying its a 'fan-wank' and the and then saying that there is some logical observations is kind of contradictory isn't it?

Not at all. Saying that something is fan-wank in no way means that it doesn't make any sense. Fan-wank is simply where a member or members of a fandom try and come up with an explanation for an aspect of their series that hasn't been officially explained or confirmed or even addressed by the series' creators. A lot of times, yes, it's all total bullshit, that often doesn't serve any purpose than to satisfy certain members of the fandom. (A great example would be pretty much anything you've ever read in the Shipper's Paradise forum.) Many times though, you'll have pieces like these Origin articles which, while very well researched and very convincing, are still pretty much fan-wank because they're all based on fan-made observations and opinions, and aren't backed by any official source.

 

[hurristat]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

In Terry Pratchett's long-running Discworld series, the world comprises a mostly-flat disc supported by four giant elephants, which stand on the back of Great A'Tuin, enormous turtle that swims through space. The books give the star turtle's species as Chelys galactica, and jokingly refer to it as "the only turtle ever to feature on the Hertzsprung-Russel diagram". Though Great A'Tuin rarely features prominently in the books, it is an ever-present aspect of the series, and perhaps one of its most recognizable hallmarks.

Overall, a well-stated and well-written article. The only problem I have with it is above: Terry Pratchett jokes about EVERYTHING, not just the Great A'Tuin.

Also, these books are highly recommended.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I don't see anything like that in this latest piece. For one thing, nothing in it reads like an opinion piece, and everything is written with a sense of certainty. You aren't saying that the Turtwig line is most likely based on the World Turtle, you're saying, and I quote: "Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra are all inspired by the concept of the World Turtle..." That doesn't look like an opinion to me.

The blurb that links to the articles from the front page contains the phrase 'likely origins', which is what I was referring to. If people think it's not clear enough that these articles represent my own research, then I can look into getting the opening disclaimer modified, but this is the first time this particular concern has been raised.

There's a lengthy debate to be had here about the nature of proof, and I'm not sure how deeply I want to get into it. Suffice it to say that I shouldn't have to insert "Of course, this could all be rubbish" into each of my articles, because you should already be thinking that about everything you read, not just on the internet, but in general.

I'm sure a good amount of people know some of this stuff, but think of all the pathetic and dumb kids with parents that don't tell them anything....they are learning something new!

Well... I wouldn't put it quite so bluntly. Firstly, many of these things are obscure: I'm a biologist and I didn't discover the clione until I was partway through my second degree. Secondly, given that these articles are pitched at a general audience and are fairly wordy, I'd be delighted to think that kids were reading them. There's no shame in not knowing something, and as long as you have the desire to learn, you can never be described as dumb.

I was inspired to start these articles because of the huge amount of educational value the Pokemon series has; a value that's almost never acknowledged. Kids playing Pokemon are, in a manner of speaking, familiar with such obscure animals as the axolotl and pangolin, and mythological concepts like the futakuchi-onna. They might not know them by those names, but the basic ideas are there. That's more than I could say for myself when I was ten years old.

In many ways, the business of proving that Pokemon x is related to animal/cultural concept y is of secondary importance. Obviously it has to be done or there's no article, but it's not what the articles are really about. There's only so much you can say about "why Sandshrew seems to be based on a pangolin" but I could write forever on the subject of the pangolin itself. And that's really what these articles are about: to tell people about something cool that they might not have known before.

Overall, a well-stated and well-written article. The only problem I have with it is above: Terry Pratchett jokes about EVERYTHING, not just the Great A'Tuin.

Also, these books are highly recommended.

This is where I admit that I've actually only read the first two. I know. I'll return my nerd license first thing in the morning.

 

[Rellik]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

The blurb that links to the articles from the front page contains the phrase 'likely origins', which is what I was referring to. If people think it's not clear enough that these articles represent my own research, then I can look into getting the opening disclaimer modified, but this is the first time this particular concern has been raised.

There's a lengthy debate to be had here about the nature of proof, and I'm not sure how deeply I want to get into it. Suffice it to say that I shouldn't have to insert "Of course, this could all be rubbish" into each of my articles, because you should already be thinking that about everything you read, not just on the internet, but in general.

A debate isn't really necessary. This is all just my opinion, and while I thank you for humoring me this long, but it's not like I work for Bulbagarden or anything. To be honest, the only reason I brought this up in the first place was because I was bugged by all the comments about GF being more creative then people thought based on this article.

Honestly, even though I don't agree with alot of Bulbagarden's policies, especially on their wikis, if they're satisfied with the contents of these articles, then so am I.

 

[Sylver Hummingbird]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I don't care if it is fan made as long as it entertains most PokeFans then I'm all right.

 

[Kyoto Tushoni]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I don't care if it is fan made as long as it entertains most PokeFans then I'm all right.

:yahoo:

 

[hurristat]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

This is where I admit that I've actually only read the first two. I know. I'll return my nerd license first thing in the morning.

hehehehe. Nah, you can keep it. Most people haven't even heard of him or Discworld. You've read two of them! That's more than enough.

 

[Sylver Hummingbird]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I've read some books and the Sky 1 adaptations in the UK. I always think that Mismagius has something to do with The Colour of Magic. I don't know why?

 

[SLS10]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

What? No mention of Ebon Wu in the main article? Blasphemy!

 

[Morru]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I don't have time to read this now, but looks like a good read.



If you look at most pokemon, you'll see this, pokemon designs are not as simple as we think some are, take Dunsparce, most think its stupid, but reading bulbapedia, aside from its name, what what its based on is quite interesting:

To anyone who thinks dunsparce is weak/stupid:

DUNSPARCE can be decaying, limbless, half-drunk, texting while flying, uncapable of using the most epic move (splash), and still beat the Pokésnot out of your EV-steroid studded Latioses and Machamps.

Yes, i think pokémon who dont look epic are misjudged as GameFreak's not so creative idea.

What? No mention of Ebon Wu in the main article? Blasphemy!

Wasn't there a digimon named ebonwumon?
oh here it is:

@ Bikini Miltank: If only youy could speak to those naysayers and show them we actually learn something from pokémon..More poképower to you!

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

I knew the origins of Torterra. Keep these articles coming.

 

[ahnospell44]

Re: On the Origin of Species: Turtwig, Grotle and Torterra: Investigating the inspira

Awesome post! I've always wondered about the origin of the defensive poke for my friends