Spoilers ORAS Have A Lot Of Meta In Them...

[Esserise]

And unlike Giovanni's disputed event, the grandmother actually disappears when she didn't originally. What would be the purpose of that, along with Phoebe speaking with ghosts if they weren't trying to imply something?

Well, I don't doubt that she died. That's definitely what they're trying to suggest (which impresses me, since, excluding maybe-maybe not Lysandre, this is the second consecutive in-game death that we've seen, with the first being the lonely old man in Anistar). I just didn't think that the weather crises could have killed her, although now I can see that I wasn't full grasping the severity of them.

Red could have easily released Mewtwo at any point in around 10 years. He only caught it to complete the Pokédex.

Ah, true. I don't know why that didn't occur to me. And I guess, it's not as if he needs a genetically-engineered super-soldier Pokémon; he's already the League Champion. In fact, it would probably be more ethical of him to release the Pokémon that he doesn't use, as opposed to leaving them sitting around in the PC.

 

[BlackButterfree]

I got the Gardevoirite from Wanda. She says that she found the stone outside her house after "those lights" filled the sky--she's referring to when the energy from Cave of Origin was released.

Now what's really interesting is that the legend between Cave of Origin and Mt. Pyre is that while Mt. Pyre is where Pokemon come to rest, the Cave of Origin is where those Pokemon are reborn. It was only after the energy was released that more Mega Stones started appearing in Hoenn--its clear that the energy released from the cave was what created these new Mega Stones, but perhaps the energy released by the Cave of Origin wasn't just natural energy, but also the life energy released by deceased Pokemon in Mt. Pyre.

That actually reinforces my belief that Mega Stones are stones infused with the souls of deceased Pokémon. I detailed that theory here:

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f724/mega-evolution-theory-thread-share-your-own-170857/

 

[muteKi]

How much meta is there? I might suggest that there's so much meta, it's like a meta gross. *jazzhands*

OK, so I'm going to assume that discussing Hoopa is fair game in here. It seems like people are pretty much in agreement that Hoopa is the source of all these legendary rings on the mirage islands/mountains/plains/etc. Collecting legendaries, presumably tempting unsuspecting trainers with them. Somehow or another we're able to catch them, something something strong bonds and friendship with our pokemon and how we train them with heart and all that. Sure. (Hell, you need to have strong and happy pokemon in order to get at a bunch of these legendaries, like the lake trio and the three muske-deers.)

One thing I've been seeing on youtube comments for the legendary battles in OR/AS is that the lack of remixes for the music -- instead always being a rip of the game where these beasts come from -- is pretty lazy. But it's not like they haven't done remixes for at least some of the legendaries; almost any time a legendary isn't coming out of a ring, it's got a remix. Kyogre and Groudon, Rayquaza, the Regis, and Deoxys. The odd one out is Regigigas, because it uses the same Gen IV legendary music as Heatran.
Interestingly, the music for the legendary beasts of Johto isn't the version from HG/SS, instead the original GB. That's actually pretty suspicious to me; if they were simply being lazy with the legendary themes, you'd figure they'd go for the fuller arrangements from HG/SS, especially in order to be consistent. But apparently not! It seems to be a very intentional stylistic choice, which seems like it's GameFreak trying to imply that, yes, actually, all these other legendaries are in fact coming from alternate universes (the music matching up to the universe of origin of each pokemon), and it's Hoopa's weird ring power that seems to have done it. It also seems to imply that, yes, actually, HG/SS is a slightly different universe from G/S/C. Go figure!

Still I'd love to get some explanation of why they used the Gen IV legendary theme like that for Regigigas, though -- they didn't in Black/White 2 (where they still used the Gen IV music for Heatran).

 

[Esserise]

One thing I've been seeing on youtube comments for the legendary battles in OR/AS is that the lack of remixes for the music -- instead always being a rip of the game where these beasts come from -- is pretty lazy. But it's not like they haven't done remixes for at least some of the legendaries; almost any time a legendary isn't coming out of a ring, it's got a remix. Kyogre and Groudon, Rayquaza, the Regis, and Deoxys. The odd one out is Regigigas, because it uses the same Gen IV legendary music as Heatran.
Interestingly, the music for the legendary beasts of Johto isn't the version from HG/SS, instead the original GB. That's actually pretty suspicious to me; if they were simply being lazy with the legendary themes, you'd figure they'd go for the fuller arrangements from HG/SS, especially in order to be consistent. But apparently not! It seems to be a very intentional stylistic choice, which seems like it's GameFreak trying to imply that, yes, actually, all these other legendaries are in fact coming from alternate universes (the music matching up to the universe of origin of each pokemon), and it's Hoopa's weird ring power that seems to have done it. It also seems to imply that, yes, actually, HG/SS is a slightly different universe from G/S/C. Go figure!

I have to say, I have seen those comments as well, and they seemed to me like a rather large leap. A simpler explanation for the recycled music is sheer pragmatism; they've got all of those tracks already on file somewhere, so why go through the extra effort to remix them when the existing tracks work just as well? The Mirage Spot Pokémon are not the main focus of the games, so I doubt that they were a significantly high priority in the developers' minds. And as far as the Beast Trio's theme goes, that could just be nostalgic fanservice (and two fewer tracks to include, since the GSC iteration didn't use personalized instruments for each Beast). Moreover, Hoopa hasn't been said to be able to transport things from entirely different universes, so that's already a questionable assumption to make in order to justify the reuse of background music for a side-quest. Never mind the massive plot holes that it would tear into the storylines of those previous games, given that many of these Legendary Pokémon were very crucial to those games' plots, which their sudden transportation into another universe would contradict.

 

[BlackButterfree]

The odd one out is Regigigas, because it uses the same Gen IV legendary music as Heatran.
Interestingly, the music for the legendary beasts of Johto isn't the version from HG/SS, instead the original GB. That's actually pretty suspicious to me; if they were simply being lazy with the legendary themes, you'd figure they'd go for the fuller arrangements from HG/SS, especially in order to be consistent. But apparently not! It seems to be a very intentional stylistic choice, which seems like it's GameFreak trying to imply that, yes, actually, all these other legendaries are in fact coming from alternate universes (the music matching up to the universe of origin of each pokemon), and it's Hoopa's weird ring power that seems to have done it. It also seems to imply that, yes, actually, HG/SS is a slightly different universe from G/S/C. Go figure!

Still I'd love to get some explanation of why they used the Gen IV legendary theme like that for Regigigas, though -- they didn't in Black/White 2 (where they still used the Gen IV music for Heatran).

If they all use the music from the original games that they came from, then the Regigigas in Hoenn is actually the Snowpoint Regigigas, which is why it shares the same theme with the Scorched Slab/Stark Mountain Heatran. Both would be from the D/P/Pt games, and all legendaries had the same theme.

Also, Kris existing in G/S/C and Lyra existing in HG/SS should've been our earliest clue of a multiverse, honestly. Obviously these two groups of games are different universes. Blue/Green/Leaf doesn't count 'cause while she exists in FR/LG, she also was supposed to exist in R/G/Y/B until she got scrapped for unknown reasons (probably that tight dress...)

I have to say, I have seen those comments as well, and they seemed to me like a rather large leap. A simpler explanation for the recycled music is sheer pragmatism; they've got all of those tracks already on file somewhere, so why go through the extra effort to remix them when the existing tracks work just as well? The Mirage Spot Pokémon are not the main focus of the games, so I doubt that they were a significantly high priority in the developers' minds. And as far as the Beast Trio's theme goes, that could just be nostalgic fanservice (and two fewer tracks to include, since the GSC iteration didn't use personalized instruments for each Beast). Moreover, Hoopa hasn't been said to be able to transport things from entirely different universes, so that's already a questionable assumption to make in order to justify the reuse of background music for a side-quest. Never mind the massive plot holes that it would tear into the storylines of those previous games, given that many of these Legendary Pokémon were very crucial to those games' plots, which their sudden transportation into another universe would contradict.

There's a theory that suggests that Hoopa's Unbound Forme is so powerful that it can reach through interdimensional portals. This means that it could pluck all the legends from their original games through time and space. That means that if Entei, Raikou and Suicune have just been awakened by Kris/Ethan at Ecruteak City, Hoopa U could whisk them away to Hoenn where May/Brendan could catch them, train them or maybe just test their strength against the legends. Then, they'd be returned to the exact time and place they were plucked from.

Here are some rough estimations of when these legends could've been plucked from their respective universes:

Spoiler

Beasts - Either after Kris/Ethan/Lyra discover them and they begin to roam Johto, or before and that's why they're hidden in the tower (to hide themselves from Hoopa)

Tower Duo - Before being encountered in their respective domains.

Lake Guardians - Probably while their lakes are being attacked by Galactic. It would explain how they were easily caught if they were tired from interdimensional travel.

Creation Trio - This could be at any point in time, since all three live in their own pocket dimensions.

Cresselia - Before she leaves to roam. My working theory is that all roaming Pokémon do so after their traumatic captures due to Hoopa transferring them to the Mega Hoenn.

Swords Of Justice - Definitely before the events of B/W conclude, which is why they can't be found in their respective habitats before then.

Forces of Nature - This one's tricky. I'd say they were plucked from Unova between B/W and B2/W2 but at this point, Hoopa was getting increasingly tired from using its powers and they ended up stuck in the Dream Radar!

Tao Trio - Kyurem could've been taken at any point. Reshiram and Zekrom could not have been taken at any known point in the games because they were in stone form or captured during both pairs of Unova games. They could've been taken from Hilbert/Hilda and N during the two year gap, however.

 

[Lugia trainer]

Here's a thought: What if those rings you find the legendary pokemon in are portals or gateways to other universes where those pokemon live?

 

[kaiomann]

Here's a thought: What if those rings you find the legendary pokemon in are portals or gateways to other universes where those pokemon live?

I don't know if I understand you correctly, but isn't that what people have been discussing in this entire thread?

 

[Lugia trainer]

Here's a thought: What if those rings you find the legendary pokemon in are portals or gateways to other universes where those pokemon live?

I don't know if I understand you correctly, but isn't that what people have been discussing in this entire thread?

As far as I know no one has said anything about those rings. They're talking about stuff like what Zinnia said in the Delta Episode.

 

[The Outrage]

As far as I know no one has said anything about those rings. They're talking about stuff like what Zinnia said in the Delta Episode.

It has been mentioned, and there really isn't much else to say.

Regular Hoopa already transports objects as large as islands across space with its rings. Suffice to say that an unbound Hoopa may have the ability to cross time and into different universes, the former of which has no real evidence, but the latter has support in that the Pokemon from Mirage Spots use their battle music from past games. Its not even consistent with Ho-Oh/Lugia using HgSs and the Legendary Beasts using GSC, suggesting those set of legendaries, despite all hailing from Johto, aren't coming from the same Johto.

 

[Lugia trainer]

As far as I know no one has said anything about those rings. They're talking about stuff like what Zinnia said in the Delta Episode.

It has been mentioned, and there really isn't much else to say.

Regular Hoopa already transports objects as large as islands across space with its rings. Suffice to say that an unbound Hoopa may have the ability to cross time and into different universes, the former of which has no real evidence, but the latter has support in that the Pokemon from Mirage Spots use their battle music from past games. Its not even consistent with Ho-Oh/Lugia using HgSs and the Legendary Beasts using GSC, suggesting those set of legendaries, despite all hailing from Johto, aren't coming from the same Johto.

In other words I could be right.

 

[Esserise]

Its not even consistent with Ho-Oh/Lugia using HgSs and the Legendary Beasts using GSC, suggesting those set of legendaries, despite all hailing from Johto, aren't coming from the same Johto.

However, it is consistent with Game Freak wanting to throw in a single, cheap-fanservice track as opposed to three individualized ones. Lugia and Ho-Oh don't have any specialized battle themes from GSC. If they were to go back that far for them, then they would just end up using the regular wild encounter music from GSC. So, they have to default to their HGSS themes if they want to give them a distinctive theme of any kind. Whereas the Beast trio have an arguably-more-iconic iteration of the themes that they use in HGSS, and Game Freak knows now, just how much "we" love dat 8-bitness. Hence why it bled through in the Kanto Legendary Pokémon theme in XY.

Besides, the Spacetime trio all use their DPP themes, but they come through rips in the spacetime continuum that are seemingly created under their own power, not Hoopa's rings.

Logically speaking, why would Hoopa be Unbound right now anyway? It needs the Prison Bottle to do that, but the Bottle...

Spoiler

is with that depressed Mart cashier on top of Mauville City right now.

Well at any rate, I personally prefer to think that they are this universe's Legendary Pokémon + some metatextual fanservice. That way, instead of hashing up the old universe's timeline by rendering certain key events impossible, I can just assume that those events play out differently in this universe in the absence of those Legendary Pokémon, which goes hand-in-hand with it being an alternative from the GBA-DS universe, in which things are said to happen somewhat differently.

If they do say at some point that these are Legendary Pokémon from the old universes, then I will concede, but I don't really see where they could say that at this point. We've seen the Hoopa-related event text, and...

Spoiler

it doesn't say anything about that.

 

[Silktree]

That way, instead of hashing up the old universe's timeline by rendering certain key events impossible,

They don't render anything impossible. There is little reason to assume that May/Brendan is actually supposed to catch any legendary barring Rayquaza; the Pokémon could easily go back through their respective portals when all is said done.

Of course, by this logic it really doesn't matter where they came from. It might be nice to think about, but it's completely inconsequential unless Game Freak actually give Hoopa a proper event (which would require DLC).

On another note, if these legendaries were supposed to be permanently tied to Hoenn, I don't see how their being from the Mega universe would fix the problem. Surely you don't think that the Johto, Sinnoh and Unova games have no representation in this new universe.

Besides, the Spacetime trio all use their DPP themes, but they come through rips in the spacetime continuum that are seemingly created under their own power, not Hoopa's rings.

They fall out of rings just like the other legendaries.

 

[Esserise]

They don't render anything impossible. There is little reason to assume that May/Brendan is actually supposed to catch any legendary barring Rayquaza; the Pokémon could easily go back through their respective portals when all is said done.

I was more referring to the likes of Reshiram/Zekrom there, who do get captured by the protagonists of BW during the story's climax (and were rocks up until that point).

On another note, if these legendaries were supposed to be permanently tied to Hoenn, I don't see how their being from the Mega universe would fix the problem. Surely you don't think that the Johto, Sinnoh and Unova games have no representation in this new universe.

I do think that they happened (and we know that at least the BW ones did, with the NPC in XY talking about Team Plasma being active a while back, although to what extent that was, we don't know), but in a different way, as I said. Which to me, makes more sense considering that this is an alternative universe in which things have happened differently. That way, I don't have to come up with some write-around for how the old timeline can function without some of the Legendary Pokémon that need to be there, and can just assume that the Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova games, which at this point are of little concern to me as there are no games involving them for this universe, simply take on a more boring appearance (although the Johto games in particular don't even necessarily need Lugia or Ho-Oh to be available).

However, even if I did think that those games' events didn't still happen in some form in this universe, I don't see what difference it would make. It would just be something that is absent from this timeline, like how the Kalos war and Mega Evolution are absent from the old one. Neither the events of ORAS nor those of XY depend inherently on the other games' existence, hence why they can function just fine right now without Mega Universe equivalents of those games existing.

They fall out of rings just like the other legendaries.

Ah, alright. Hadn't seen that bit.

 

[Silktree]

I was more referring to the likes of Reshiram/Zekrom there, who do get captured by the protagonists of BW during the story's climax (and were rocks up until that point).

If the portals are a link to other universes, then there is no reason to assume that the events are necessarily synchronized. Hoopa might be able to pluck anything from any place and time, which is not the same as actually time traveling (I'd wager that it never actually moves through these portals). It might be manipulating both Palkia and Dialga to make this work.

So Reshiram and Zekrom could have come from the distant past (or future) in which they were neither in stone form nor under the possession of any trainer. Or Hoopa just temporarily made them materialize and after that they reverted to stones.

That way, I don't have to come up with some write-around for how the old timeline can function without some of the Legendary Pokémon that need to be there, and can just assume that the Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova games, which at this point are of little concern to me as there are no games involving them for this universe, simply take on a more boring appearance (although the Johto games in particular don't even necessarily need Lugia or Ho-Oh to be available).

And you find this to be an elegant assumption? That some regions may have become more "boring" as a result of Hoopa's shenanigans? Even though the ORAS encounters don't even have any story to speak of?

 

[Esserise]

If the portals are a link to other universes, then there is no reason to assume that the events are necessarily synchronized. Hoopa might be able to pluck anything from any place and time, which is not the same as actually time traveling (I'd wager that it never actually moves through these portals). It might be manipulating both Palkia and Dialga to make this work.

So Reshiram and Zekrom could have come from the distant past (or future) in which they were neither in stone form nor under the possession of any trainer. Or Hoopa just temporarily made them materialize and after that they reverted to stones.

And you find this to be an elegant assumption? That some regions may have become more "boring" as a result of Hoopa's shenanigans? Even though the ORAS encounters don't even have any story to speak of?

When the alternative is assuming that Hoopa has unlimited access to all of time and space, and that it is pulling away Legendary Pokémon that were involved in the plots of the other universe's games, which may or may not then hop right back through the portals anyway, thereby rendering all of that unnecessary? Yes, I do find it more elegant to think that it simply moved this universe's Legendary Pokémon, and that the events of the games that, even now, aren't relevant to the narratives of either XY or ORAS, simply played out more uneventfully (in a universe where several things already have happened differently from how they did in the old one). Especially when it's all to explain... why Game Freak didn't bother to remix a handful of music tracks.

That it would have the added side-effect of booting the over-the-top "I'll destroy the universe with dinosaur gods in order to erase everybody's soooooooooooul!!!" and downright silly "Gee, I sure hope our ex-leader is tuned into the right frequency right now..." plots from this universe's version of events is an unintended consequence, but one that I am more than happy to embrace as well.

 

[Silktree]

When the alternative is assuming that Hoopa has unlimited access to all of time and space, and that it is pulling away Legendary Pokémon that were involved in the plots of the other universe's games, which may or may not then hop right back through the portals anyway, thereby rendering all of that unnecessary?

The encounters are unnecessary story-wise, and your explanation doesn't negate that. I'm saying that we shouldn't really care where the legendaries came from if ORAS don't even treat them as anything special.

That it would have the added side-effect of booting the over-the-top "I'll destroy the universe with dinosaur gods in order to erase everybody's soooooooooooul!!!" and downright silly "Gee, I sure hope our ex-leader is tuned into the right frequency right now..." plots from this universe's version of events is an unintended consequence, but one that I am more than happy to embrace as well.

I realize that you aren't being serious, but the ORAS encounters don't have anywhere near that impact, nor does the existence of Mega Evolution.

 

[BlackButterfree]

Logically speaking, why would Hoopa be Unbound right now anyway? It needs the Prison Bottle to do that, but the Bottle...

Spoiler

is with that depressed Mart cashier on top of Mauville City right now.

Spoiler

He mentions opening it a few days prior, which can possibly mean that canonically, it's only been a few days since you've mastered soaring, as Mirage Spots pop up immediately.

 

[Garren]

I think Hoopa was a smart idea. It serves a gameplay purpose, letting new players catch Legendary Pokemon without having to worry about buying all the older games and trading them up, and it lets them have an explanation, however small, for why this is possible. Of course I think gameplay should always trump plot more or less, and I really never got too upset when for example the Legendary Birds or whatever appeared in Sinnoh without any explanation (XY was a different story, only because I felt there they were a cheap replacement for effort going into actual new Legendaries), but I know some people like to have some plot justification for stuff like that.

 

[BlackButterfree]

I think Hoopa was a smart idea. It serves a gameplay purpose, letting new players catch Legendary Pokemon without having to worry about buying all the older games and trading them up, and it lets them have an explanation, however small, for why this is possible. Of course I think gameplay should always trump plot more or less, and I really never got too upset when for example the Legendary Birds or whatever appeared in Sinnoh without any explanation (XY was a different story, only because I felt there they were a cheap replacement for effort going into actual new Legendaries), but I know some people like to have some plot justification for stuff like that.

Yeah, I don't think there really needs to be a sacrifice when it comes to gameplay vs. plot. When done correctly, even something as farfetched as a 3,000 year old king seems realistic and freakin' cool. I think that if Game Freak really put their minds to it, so much of the canon could be cleared up so quickly.