Speculation ORAS's place in the Megaverse timeline in respect to XY

[MissingNo. 1]

So a little background that is, by this point, pretty well-known but should probably be stated as a reminder to get the thread going. If you haven't completed the ORAS Delta Episode yet and you mind spoilers, do not click the spoiler tag:

Spoiler

There are at least two universes in the Pokemon world: one where the Kalos war occurred and thus created Mega Evolutions (XY/ORAS) and one where the Kalos war did not occur and thus Mega Evolutions don't exist (Generations III-V). The timeline for the non-Mega Evolution universe has been confirmed as: RSE/FRLG --> DPPt/HGSS --> BW --> B2W2. There is a three-year lapse within the first arrow, an unknown length of time lapsing within the second arrow, and a two-year lapse within the third arrow. Also with the confirmation, we got that XY occurred at the same time as B2W2 (or at least the Unova region in the Megaverse). So people have concluded that with the current knowledge about the Megaverse that we currently have, the timeline for the Megaverse is ORAS --> XY, with the time lapse being the same amount of time that lapsed between RSE and B2W2 in the non-Megaverse.

So it seems pretty safe to assume that the events in the Megaverse are contemporary with the events in the non-Megaverse, just with Mega Evolution added into the Megaverse that enhanced the plot (or in Kalos's case, made the difference of whether the events actually occurred at all). So in other words, ORAS (Hoenn in the Megaverse) occurred several years before XY. However, I've done some thinking into this and realized that there are evidence that suggest this may not be the case (and of course, evidence that suggest otherwise as well). It seems that there are elements in ORAS that suggests that Hoenn in the Megaverse is contemporary with Kalos somehow, despite that it makes no sense in terms of time/event progression. I'll list out the evidence that suggests this may be the case and then list out the ones that doesn't indicate this is true.

XY/ORAS are contemporary

• Someone in the ORAS Pokemon Center stated that there used to be second floors in the centers that were used for link battles and trades (I think she said it was a decade ago?). This is a throwback to RSE, obviously, but keeping in mind the Pokemon timeline canon, it seems to indicate that ORAS is not happening contemporaneously as RSE.
• You can battle and trade between ORAS and XY without any implication that there is a warp in time (due to battling and trading between games that occur in different points in time). The fact that you were able to trade between RSE/FRLG and DPPt/HGSS was the sole implication that Hoenn/Kanto and Sinnoh/Johto happened contemporaneously before the timeline was confirmed. This may be implication that XY and ORAS happened contemporaneously.
• The Battle Maison's Battle Chatelaines look exactly the same in XY and ORAS, indicating they haven't aged between the two events. And we did have an instance where two of the same facilities existed in two different locations at the same time (the Johto/Sinnoh Battle Frontier) so apparently existing in two different places at once is possible in the Pokemon universe (so it's not an argument that XY and ORAS couldn't have happened at the same time).

XY/ORAS aren't contemporary

• Looker appeared in both ORAS and XY under completely different circumstances (he suffered from amnesia in ORAS while he was fully functional and able to do his job in XY, indicating that XY and ORAS do not happen simultaneously and quite some time passed between the two events). We know that Looker cannot exist in two places at once seeing as how he didn't appear in B2W2 since he was in Kalos at the time (B2W2 and XY happened at the same time, albeit in different universes).
• (Referencing the second bullet in the above category) However, you also have to remember that BW and B2W2 are compatible with each other, which indicates being compatible does not mean they occurred at the same time. So the compatibility between XY and ORAS could be evidence that the two events are contemporary but BW/B2W2 showed that two games being compatible does not necessarily mean that they occur simultaneously.
• I don't remember where but ORAS did mention that the Royal Unova was under construction at the time. The Royal Unova is complete by the time of XY (since XY is contemporary with B2W2 where the Royal Unova is completed).
• It's just common sense! Just with the exception of Mega Evolution, Primal Reversion and the Delta Episode, RSE and ORAS are almost mirror images of each other. How could the difference of whether an ancient war occurred, an ultimate weapon was built and a battle mechanism was in existence perfectly shift the birth of characters, regional events and plans set forward by villainous teams towards the future with the same amount of time having lapsed? What I mean is that Brendan and May are the same age in RSE and ORAS (alongside pretty much every other characters), Team Magma/Aqua set forth their plans during Brendan/May's adventures and just with a couple exceptions such as Mauville City and Hoenn Pokemon Centers, every location in Hoenn seem to appear the same for the most part and have been in existence for the same amount of time between RSE and ORAS. It seems unlikely that the existence of Mega Evolution caused the events of Hoenn to occur a decade (or however amount of years) after it would have occurred if Mega Evolution didn't exist.

I apologize if I missed any other evidence. If I did (and I probably did), please add them to this thread. I wanted to know what other people thought about this. Most people currently seem to think that ORAS occurred several years before XY but there seems to be hints in the games that this may not be the case. I wanted to bring these hints to everyone's attention so that they can be either brought into the light or debunked due to flaws in my arguments.

 

[SirOni]

Don't forget Mr. Bonding.

 

[BlackButterfree]

I mean it's pretty obvious that OR/AS is not contemporary with X/Y. All the remakes take place at the same time as their original counterparts (in fact, it's the remakes that pretty much solidified the originals' places in the timeline) and RSE takes place at least 5 years before X/Y. We know because the timeline was confirmed. And the Royal Unova thing.

I mean, it's awesome that people are speculating on everything, but this?

 

[The Outrage]

All the evidence for XY/ORAS taking place at the same time are either throwbacks/laziness/or simplifying game mechanics.

Someone in the ORAS Pokemon Center stated that there used to be second floors in the centers that were used for link battles and trades (I think she said it was a decade ago?). This is a throwback to RSE, obviously, but keeping in mind the Pokemon timeline canon, it seems to indicate that ORAS is not happening contemporaneously as RSE.

This is just a nostalgia tidbit, but even if its true,it doesn't really contradict the story. Of course ORAS and RSE aren't happening at the same time as each other, they're alternate realities where ORAS!Hoenn was more technologically advanced. There is no way to reconcile that RSE and ORAS take place in the same universe since locations like Sea Mauville are analogues to the Abandoned ship, and while they have similar stories, are mutually exclusive--both couldn't happen as they occupy the same time and space in Hoenn history.

More to the point of ORAS!Hoenn being more advanced--the non-Megaverse eventually phased out two-floor Pokemon Centers, but ORAS!Hoenn phased it out earlier than RSE!Hoenn.

No evidence here for XY = ORAS

• You can battle and trade between ORAS and XY without any implication that there is a warp in time (due to battling and trading between games that occur in different points in time). The fact that you were able to trade between RSE/FRLG and DPPt/HGSS was the sole implication that Hoenn/Kanto and Sinnoh/Johto happened contemporaneously before the timeline was confirmed. This may be implication that XY and ORAS happened contemporaneously.

Remember, this is the generation after we had sequel games that take place two years apart communicate with each other like there was no issue. Funnier still in that Hilbert/Hilda were supposed to be AWOL in B2W2, yet you can connect with BW any time you want.

Furthermore, BW established that different versions are alternate dimensions of each other (on a smaller scale than the Megaverse), even alluding to how minor events led to a more technologically developed/naturally attuned Unova and both versions trade just fine. If games can trade across realities and invoke gameplay-and-story segregation, why not across time (which again, it has)?

If convoluted trade mechanics at any point indicated games weren't in the same timeline, Game Freak not only killed that idea in Gen V, but they also defiled its corpse and danced on its grave.

The Battle Maison's Battle Chatelaines look exactly the same in XY and ORAS, indicating they haven't aged between the two events. And we did have an instance where two of the same facilities existed in two different locations at the same time (the Johto/Sinnoh Battle Frontier) so apparently existing in two different places at once is possible in the Pokemon universe (so it's not an argument that XY and ORAS couldn't have happened at the same time).

This one is just Game Freak being lazy. You can tell. They say that the Chatelaines were from Hoenn, yet the Hoenn Maison is the replica of the Kalos one? It would have made more sense for Kalos to be the replica given that Hoenn's is being destroyed for the Battle Frontier.

But as another point of contention, Looker and Cynthia showed no visible signs of aging or any sort of change in BW despite that taking place after DPPt (and Caitlin visibly aging). Game Freak just didn't care to do anything for their design--it makes sense, they just ported the entire Battle Maison, why would they spend time on the Chatelaines?

Don't forget Mr. Bonding.

At this point, I would not be surprised if Mr. Bonding could time travel and was actually the first trainer to bond with Lucario and established the Mega Evolution lore in Kalos.

 

[Boss1708]

Thanks for the thread, since Alpha Sapphire is my favourite game ever, and the original Hoenn games from gen3 were my former favourites, mainly Emerald.

My theory is that sine ORAS occurs in a different timeline, different things happen at slightly different time. I think it´s obvious that ORAS occures later than the original RSE, but a few years, maybe 5, previous to the Kalos games.

 

[MissingNo. 1]

Don't forget Mr. Bonding.

Lol, that was actually enough to answer my question (never knew that the guy in Mauville City and Mr. Bonding were the same person). Thanks.

 

[Dieter]

But as another point of contention, Looker and Cynthia showed no visible signs of aging or any sort of change in BW despite that taking place after DPPt (and Caitlin visibly aging). Game Freak just didn't care to do anything for their design--it makes sense, they just ported the entire Battle Maison, why would they spend time on the Chatelaines?

Though GF indeed pretty much didn't care too much for doing a lot with their design, unlike Caitlin (who also played a more prominent role all of sudden than she did in DPPt, so a design change was pretty much mandatory) Looker and Cynthia also seem to be more of an age where they don't drastically change anymore in a couple of years? It's of course all speculation, but Caitlin is something like halfway in her teens in DPPt, while she looks to be in her early twneties in her BW appearance. Cyntha on the other hands already looks like she's at least halfway in her twenties, so if she's in her early thirties, by BW she wouldn't have looked all that different (though wearing the same outfit for like ten years?) Same for Looker

DPPt also references the Red Gyarados incident right at the start, and it's implied to be very recent, another reason why trading between versions is absolutely not an indication

And RSE were always less firmly established in the timeline (until we got confirmation that is)

I do agree that RSE might happen earlier in relation to BW2 than ORAS does to XY (as XY=BW2)

That Hex Maniac ghost girl is the only weird thing. in XY she says 'No, you're not the one...' while I'm fairly certain in ORAS another Hex Maniac says 'No, you're still not the one...' Or something along those lines, point being that I'm fairly certain she used 'still' in ORAS, which would be a bit weird if they're the same person

 

[Silktree]

That Hex Maniac ghost girl is the only weird thing. in XY she says 'No, you're not the one...' while I'm fairly certain in ORAS another Hex Maniac says 'No, you're still not the one...' Or something along those lines, point being that I'm fairly certain she used 'still' in ORAS, which would be a bit weird if they're the same person

She says the exact same thing in ORAS as she does in XY. Actually, the XY quote has three ellipsis, which implies that the girl may be more impatient in XY than in ORAS.

 

[WallflowerCanyon]

I've never been really concerned about the timeline, as weird as that sounds. I still think though that Mega!Hoenn and Kalos are somehow closely connected though. The biggest red flag for me on that one is the Kalos War references being shoved down your throat in the Delta Episode of ORAS, as well as the gigantic tree that AZ planted in Sootopolis.

Timeline-wise, I fell that ORAS takes place before X/Y because we get to see the creation of Mr. Bonding in ORAS. Which still kinda creeps me out, to be honest. Like how did that even happen? For fun, I have this conspiracy headcanon that those individual color guys are actually malicious mystical aliens that were seeking a human host in a plot to take over the Poke-Earth. His so-called "O-Powers" is what he uses to feed off of the Infinite Energy of Pokemon trainers like a damn parasite. I'm on to you, jerk. I ain't taking anymore O-Powers from you!

 

[godiego]

I've never been really concerned about the timeline, as weird as that sounds. I still think though that Mega!Hoenn and Kalos are somehow closely connected though. The biggest red flag for me on that one is the Kalos War references being shoved down your throat in the Delta Episode of ORAS, as well as the gigantic tree that AZ planted in Sootopolis.

I think that's just GameFreak's typical references to other games in the generation though. Sinnoh and Johto referenced each other a fair amount, but they're not all that related (at least, I don't think they are).

 

[Esserise]

I think that's just GameFreak's typical references to other games in the generation though. Sinnoh and Johto referenced each other a fair amount, but they're not all that related (at least, I don't think they are).

Well, sort of. The two regions themselves are distinct. But the Sinjoh Ruins event revealed that groups of people from both Johto and Sinnoh eventually met up somewhere and created the Sinjoh Ruins in acknowledgement of the relationship between Arceus and the Unown, and in addition to that, there are said to be people in the Johto region who still carry on the traditions of Arceus worship. So there is some culture blend, and the mythologies of the regions are linked, but not any more so than what we see between ORAS and XY. Yes, AZ visited Hoenn a few times and gave Sootopolis their tree, but the references to the war are just there to explain the origins of Mega Evolution and Infinity Energy, which were pertinent to the story more because of Rayquaza than anything else.

Interestingly, Non-Megaverse Johto also has a link to Hoenn, in the form of the Embedded Tower.