Order of End Game Events for USUM

[Alola]

This thread came up because I saw a comment about how anticlimactic the Alolan Elite Four felt given how one would have just completed the very climatic Lillie/Lusamine/Nebby/Nihilego's arc. Which is a good point. How did you all feel about that?

For years, the generic formula has generally been taking down the resident evil team and interacting with a cover-art Legendary before ever visiting the Elite Four and Champion. In some cases, you don't even get to the 8th Gym before these interactions occur. Black & White were the only games, so far, to shake up that status quo-which may be one of the reasons they were so popular in Japan. Thus, what do you all think about this element? Has it grown dull and expected? Or do you find it realistic?

And more importantly, would you prefer for all the Ultra Beast/Lunala & Solgaleo events to end before tackling the Elite Four? And have winning the first Alola league be the ending for USUM?

Or would you prefer defeating all the Elite Four, becoming Champion essentially, and then tackling all the Ultra Beast business, and ending the game on that note?

A third option I haven't mentioned? How do you think USUM should approach the post game?

 

[Esserise]

I liked how SM handled it. Helping our friend save her insane mother from herself felt a lot more urgent to me than wrapping up our island trial. And I think the whole thing with tying up loose ends with Gladion and Hau, taking on the newly-established Elite Four, becoming the first-ever Champion of Alola, and having a climactic but good-sport battle with Kukui at the summit was a suitably light-hearted ending for SM, and imagining it the other way around feels extremely awkward to me. The island challenge is a much more down-to-earth thing, and it doesn’t feel right to me to bury the culmination of it underneath extradimensional family drama. Get that stuff out of the way first.

Similarly, I actually didn’t think the way they glossed over Mina’s trial was jarring. I think it would hurt the pacing and that sense of urgency to take a fluffy aside where we paint flowers and battle the quirky fey girl we’ve never met before. The battle with Hapu was set up beforehand by her journey running in parallel to ours, and both it and the natural Canyon trial carried a more serious/solemn tone that didn’t feel very out of place in the gravity of the Lillie/Lusamine plot.

I do think that SM’s specific version is the best spin on the formula so far, but I don’t mind the structure in general anyway, because it works. Pokémon is all about Pokémon battles and friendly competition. It is a universal aspect in all of the games, so I think it feels more appropriate for that to be the endgame rather than all of the dramactic, apocalyptic, high-concept stuff that’s specific to whatever the current games’ themes are. BW get an excuse to shake it up because they had a shake-things-up mandate, but more importantly, because that plot was very focused on examining the ideals and ethics of Pokémon battling, moreso than any other game. The scope was more intensive and thoughtful, so it necessitated a more high-profile resolution.

 

[Cookies and Creme]

I agree with Esserise. I also liked how the UB mission was in the post-game, which means it doesn't immediately jump from fighting Lusamine to capturing all the UBs, The climax was enough brain damage for me and I think it was nice to just chill and beat the league after the climax.

 

[godiego]

maybe it's because i'm used to it but i didn't find the climax to E4 transition neither jarring nor disappointing; it's been the series' flow MO since the get-go (barring BW, but in that case given N's goals it's only natural to have the Plasma conflict come to a peak at the League rather than before). SM did a good job integrating the Lusamine-Nebby-Lillie plot into your island challenge so that it's not like in other games where your adventure is clearly put on pause. in advancing that storyline you are still continuing on your island challenge.

now that being said i do still think there are flaws with the E4 (Kahili sis.....) and i do think that USUM shouldn't repeat the whole "you're the first champion" gig again, but otherwise i think it was fairly well executed.

 

[Mitchman]

I think USUM will deal with everything in mostly the same way. What will change is that by the time you get to the league, someone else has become champion because you were saving the world.

 

[Alolan Coconut]

I never minded Game Freaks approach towards the finale. Mainly because it has been like this since the beginning and I think it's really difficult to produce an endgame which wouldn't feel at least a little strange. You have to deal with two different types of climactic endings that both play a significant role in the game and I don't think that there is an easy way around it.

 

[Nicolas721]

-It's earlier, but we shouldn't have had Po Town-Nanu-Aether Foundation in succession, we should have had a break between them, maybe having a small sidequest in Mount Lanakila.
-Hapu battle after Kommo-o, please, or even after Lusamine. It's just confusing to have a great trial before a trial.
-No 20 minutes of dancing.
-No Tapu Koko battle.
-Having an Ultra Beast gauntlet as a replacement of the Elite 4 would have been good, but with all the emphasis the Island Trial had in the first half of the game it's not surprising they didn't do it. Besides, one of the reasons the league was disappointing was because we've already met 3 members of the Elite 4, shoving them in the postgame would have made it worst.

 

[Mitchman]

I liked how SM handled it. Helping our friend save her insane mother from herself felt a lot more urgent to me than wrapping up our island trial. And I think the whole thing with tying up loose ends with Gladion and Hau, taking on the newly-established Elite Four, becoming the first-ever Champion of Alola, and having a climactic but good-sport battle with Kukui at the summit was a suitably light-hearted ending for SM, and imagining it the other way around feels extremely awkward to me. The island challenge is a much more down-to-earth 2
Athing, and it doesn’t feel right to me to bury the culmination of it underneath extradimensional family drama. Get that stuff out of the way first.

Similarly, I actually didn’t think the way they glossed over Mina’s trial was jarring. I think it would hurt the pacing and that sense of urgency to take a fluffy aside where we paint flowers and battle the quirky fey girl we’ve never met before. The battle with Hapu was set up beforehand by her journey running in parallel to ours, and both it and the natural Canyon trial carried a more serious/solemn tone that didn’t feel very out of place in the gravity of the Lillie/Lusamine plot.

I do think that SM’s specific version is the best spin on the formula so far, but I don’t mind the structure in general anyway, because it works. Pokémon is all about Pokémon battles and friendly competition. It is a universal aspect in all of the games, so I think it feels more appropriate for that to be the endgame rather than all of the dramactic, apocalyptic, high-concept stuff that’s specific to whatever the current games’ themes are. BW get an excuse to shake it up because they had a shake-things-up mandate, but more importantly, because that plot was very focused on examining the ideals and ethics of Pokémon battling, moreso than any other game. The scope was more intensive and thoughtful, so it necessitated a more high-profile resolution.

I dunno, this is another thing B2W2 did that is extremely unique and works even better. The region already has the perfect layout for making things a bit more interestin,

I liked how SM handled it. Helping our friend save her insane mother from herself felt a lot more urgent to me than wrapping up our island trial. And I think the whole thing with tying up loose ends with Gladion and Hau, taking on the newly-established Elite Four, becoming the first-ever Champion of Alola, and having a climactic but good-sport battle with Kukui at the summit was a suitably light-hearted ending for SM, and imagining it the other way around feels extremely awkward to me. The island challenge is a much more down-to-earth thing, and it doesn’t feel right to me to bury the culmination of it underneath extradimensional family drama. Get that stuff out of the way first.

Similarly, I actually didn’t think the way they glossed over Mina’s trial was jarring. I think it would hurt the pacing and that sense of urgency to take a fluffy aside where we paint flowers and battle the quirky fey girl we’ve never met before. The battle with Hapu was set up beforehand by her journey running in parallel to ours, and both it and the natural Canyon trial carried a more serious/solemn tone that didn’t feel very out of place in the gravity of the Lillie/Lusamine plot.

I do think that SM’s specific version is the best spin on the formula so far, but I don’t mind the structure in general anyway, because it works. Pokémon is all about Pokémon battles and friendly competition. It is a universal aspect in all of the games, so I think it feels more appropriate for that to be the endgame rather than all of the dramactic, apocalyptic, high-concept stuff that’s specific to whatever the current games’ themes are. BW get an excuse to shake it up because they had a shake-things-up mandate, but more importantly, because that plot was very focused on examining the ideals and ethics of Pokémon battling, moreso than any other game. The scope was more intensive and thoughtful, so it necessitated a more high-profile resolution.

Yeah, Hapu was neat, showing how Kahuna's gain their position and what not. But I still maintain B2W2 was the best in terms of pacing and how you find the evil team. Giant Chasm being near the E4 was excellent, the new areas above Undella Bay justified Plasma being so near to Opelucid City, and Humilau Gym wasn't jarring in the least as it acts as the gateway to the league as well.

 

[IncineROAR]

I don't think the Elite 4 were necessary for Alola. GF had invested so much already in creating the island trials, surely there could have been a different and more appropriate way to culminate the game's story.

 

[Esserise]

I dunno, this is another thing B2W2 did that is extremely unique and works even better. The region already has the perfect layout for making things a bit more interestin,

Yeah, Hapu was neat, showing how Kahuna's gain their position and what not. But I still maintain B2W2 was the best in terms of pacing and how you find the evil team. Giant Chasm being near the E4 was excellent, the new areas above Undella Bay justified Plasma being so near to Opelucid City, and Humilau Gym wasn't jarring in the least as it acts as the gateway to the league as well.

Well, it's no secret that I think B2W2 are the best games in the series. I mostly agree with you here, except on the point of Humilau (but even then, only slightly). I don't think it actively disrupts the pacing, but to me it did feel kind of forced when you were in Humilau and would talk to Hugh and the only excuse the games had for holding you back was, "We'll get the DNA Splicers back for sure! So you should focus on defeating the Gym Leader first!" I think that, combined with the lackadaisical atmosphere of the Humilau Gym did make the threat from Team Plasma feel less imminent, which is a bit odd to me since they weren't all that far from the Giant Chasm when we last saw them (in comparison, the Grand Trial battle against Hapu is just a single one-on-one match that is meant to wrap up her arc and to test your readiness for the Canyon - it is both more succinct and more serious than a lily pad maze set to elevator music). But in a broader sense, I did like that the final confrontation with Neo-Plasma came in between the 8th Badge and the League. It was another refreshing change from the usual 7th Badge > Villain Finale > 8th Badge > Victory Road outline.

(To fix the above situation in B2W2, rather than just having Team Plasma fly off in their ship with the implication being that they're still waiting on Kyurem's power to recharge, I would have probably included a bit of dialogue about Colress needing time to figure out how to "unlock" the DNA Splicers or some such - during which time we really may as well just take on the final Gym, and then once that's done, show an additional cutscene where their ship rises once more and launches a volley of ice down at the Chasm, which we can see happening from Humilau. That would definitively let us know that it's time to get serious again, and could even be an opportunity for them to show some action being taken by the Musketeers, whose involvement in the plot is otherwise completely random and inconsequential. They could be leading wounded Pokémon out of the Chasm or something, just like they did during the forest fire in the distant past. I think SM got it right this time with the Hala vs. UB-02 scene, showing us and letting us know that the Tapu were responding to the wormhole outbreak.)

I don't think the Elite 4 were necessary for Alola. GF had invested so much already in creating the island trials, surely there could have been a different and more appropriate way to culminate the game's story.

Although, while we could imagine a myriad of hypothetical formats for the culmination of the Trials, what we're told within the narrative is that the Alolan thing we would have gotten instead of an Elite Four would have been... basically just the Elite Four still, but with Nanu and Hapu instead of Acerola and Kahili.

Personally, I prefer having the two twist members and the personal League arc for Kukui.

 

[YakisobaDayo]

It could be cool (though perhaps overwhelming?) if they combined E4 with the storyline's climax. Like, the big climax battle is set up in some way ("Oh no! We have to fight super-tough boss or mega Pokemon!"), and now the Elite Four realizes you're their only hope, so defeating them (the first time) is them making sure you're ready for what's to come, or at least that the only one who can save us all is someone strong enough to be champion. So becoming Champion now means something more.

Or something.

 

[Mitchman]

Well, it's no secret that I think B2W2 are the best games in the series. I mostly agree with you here, except on the point of Humilau (but even then, only slightly). I don't think it actively disrupts the pacing, but to me it did feel kind of forced when you were in Humilau and would talk to Hugh and the only excuse the games had for holding you back was, "We'll get the DNA Splicers back for sure! So you should focus on defeating the Gym Leader first!" I think that, combined with the lackadaisical atmosphere of the Humilau Gym did make the threat from Team Plasma feel less imminent, which is a bit odd to me since they weren't all that far from the Giant Chasm when we last saw them (in comparison, the Grand Trial battle against Hapu is just a single one-on-one match that is meant to wrap up her arc and to test your readiness for the Canyon - it is both more succinct and more serious than a lily pad maze set to elevator music). But in a broader sense, I did like that the final confrontation with Neo-Plasma came in between the 8th Badge and the League. It was another refreshing change from the usual 7th Badge > Villain Finale > 8th Badge > Victory Road outline.

(To fix the above situation in B2W2, rather than just having Team Plasma fly off in their ship with the implication being that they're still waiting on Kyurem's power to recharge, I would have probably included a bit of dialogue about Colress needing time to figure out how to "unlock" the DNA Splicers or some such - during which time we really may as well just take on the final Gym, and then once that's done, show an additional cutscene where their ship rises once more and launches a volley of ice down at the Chasm, which we can see happening from Humilau. That would definitively let us know that it's time to get serious again, and could even be an opportunity for them to show some action being taken by the Musketeers, whose involvement in the plot is otherwise completely random and inconsequential. They could be leading wounded Pokémon out of the Chasm or something, just like they did during the forest fire in the distant past. I think SM got it right this time with the Hala vs. UB-02 scene, showing us and letting us know that the Tapu were responding to the wormhole outbreak.)



Although, while we could imagine a myriad of hypothetical formats for the culmination of the Trials, what we're told within the narrative is that the Alolan thing we would have gotten instead of an Elite Four would have been... basically just the Elite Four still, but with Nanu and Hapu instead of Acerola and Kahili.

Personally, I prefer having the two twist members and the personal League arc for Kukui.

But there was a break in narrative. The attack happens, you have no idea where Plasma has gone, and the only thing for you to do is go to Humilau and onwards. Right before the climax Colress shows up, and you chase him down to the plasma frigate, then go forward in the chasm. So its not like you have the attack, then the raid, then a whimsical break while going to the cave. If they had that, then yes it would have been jarring, or if they had you do the badge after the climax it would have been dull. But with this you get to see what they are after, why they are after it, but you have no idea where they have gone. The game then lets itself breathe with a badge in the middle, and then finishes up the story, while directly going for the league afterwards.
This is also something USUM, or even SM should have done. The cosmoen event could have happened, and instead of a straight line to Poni Island, you go back to Ula Ula because Nanu is waiting. He tells you there is another trial, you beat it, and him, and then go on with the game. The breathing room the game had at the beginning was suddenly lost at the end.

 

[Esserise]

But there was a break in narrative. The attack happens, you have no idea where Plasma has gone, and the only thing for you to do is go to Humilau and onwards. Right before the climax Colress shows up, and you chase him down to the plasma frigate, then go forward in the chasm. So its not like you have the attack, then the raid, then a whimsical break while going to the cave. If they had that, then yes it would have been jarring, or if they had you do the badge after the climax it would have been dull. But with this you get to see what they are after, why they are after it, but you have no idea where they have gone. The game then lets itself breathe with a badge in the middle, and then finishes up the story, while directly going for the league afterwards.

Hmm, okay, you’re right. It appears I misremembered the order of events - I seemed to recall dealing with Team Plasma at the Seaside Cave before getting the Wave Badge. Although I stand by my point about the Musketeers being shoehorned in.

This is also something USUM, or even SM should have done. The cosmoen event could have happened, and instead of a straight line to Poni Island, you go back to Ula Ula because Nanu is waiting. He tells you there is another trial, you beat it, and him, and then go on with the game. The breathing room the game had at the beginning was suddenly lost at the end.

Ehhhh.... that seems clunky and a little meandering to me, but then, I liked the fourth act of SM because it was very streamlined and had less breathing room. I liked how that let the plot stay in focus the whole time.

 

[Lufenium]

This thread came up because I saw a comment about how anticlimactic the Alolan Elite Four felt given how one would have just completed the very climatic Lillie/Lusamine/Nebby/Nihilego's arc. Which is a good point. How did you all feel about that?

For years, the generic formula has generally been taking down the resident evil team and interacting with a cover-art Legendary before ever visiting the Elite Four and Champion. In some cases, you don't even get to the 8th Gym before these interactions occur. Black & White were the only games, so far, to shake up that status quo-which may be one of the reasons they were so popular in Japan. Thus, what do you all think about this element? Has it grown dull and expected? Or do you find it realistic?

And more importantly, would you prefer for all the Ultra Beast/Lunala & Solgaleo events to end before tackling the Elite Four? And have winning the first Alola league be the ending for USUM?

Or would you prefer defeating all the Elite Four, becoming Champion essentially, and then tackling all the Ultra Beast business, and ending the game on that note?

A third option I haven't mentioned? How do you think USUM should approach the post game?

Ok, to answer the questions:

1. I wasn't too bothered by the flow of the story. I liked the way it played out. Could it have been done better? Sure, but it was by no means bad.

2. The generic formula for Pokemon is fine. 20 years later we're still playing what is essentially the same turn based RPG, just with hundreds of different playable characters, different environments and stories, with enhanced gameplay elements. So honestly, I'm fine with the traditional E4 closing the main story. It feels climactic to me.

3. I have no preference, but given that the legendary Pokemon story arc usually concludes before the E4 and the credits roll, I'm guessing it will be the same here. I think we'll see a mixture of UBs spread throughout the story. We already know that the URS will have UB Adhesive. Encountering/seeing other UBs in the main story would not be a surprise.

4. I';m not sure how I'd like GF to handle the post game. As long as it's satisfying and entertaining, I'll be happy.

 

[Almonds]

I didn't mind it too much up till BW - that's when I was really impressed with the way they took. By placing the climax of the Team Plasma crisis near the end of the game, they made the story intense and gave it the epic finale and fanfare it deserved. I was literally applauding the moment the credits rolled after N said "Farewell!" The game felt complete at that point and I felt extremely satisfied, like having finished a whole book.

I still like the generic formula it took in Gen 6, and Gen 7 wasn't too bad. But if they can pull off another epic ending by shaking things up a little, then why the heck not. I'd say go for it.