Original Kanto/Johto Champion?

[elveonora]

We know that Blue became the Champion, but got defeated by Red whose position was passed onto Lance. But whom did Blue defeat, who could have been the unseen Champion, any theories?

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Blue defeated Lance first. Lance says you would have been the champion, had Blue not already beat Lance. So had you beaten the E4 first you wouldn't have had to fight Blue after Lance and would've instantly become champion.
As far as I know there was no other champion.

 

[elveonora]

But Lance was an Elite Four in Gens I. and III. not the Champion.

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

What I'm saying is there was no champion. Lance say's "You are now the Pokemon League Champion! Or you would have been but you have one more challenge left. There is one more trainer to face, his name is... Blue! He Beat the Elite 4 before you. He is the real Pokemon League Champion!

So to become champion you just needed to beat the E4, and Lance was technicalally the champion.

 

[elveonora]

Doesn't any dialogue from Firered/Leafgreen suggest that there was a champion before Blue?

 

[DasManiac]

I believe Professor Oak was originally intended to be Champion. His PC has an email from the Elite Four issuing a challenge to all trainers and specifically asking Oak to come to the Pokemon League. I guess the idea was dropped though and ultimately the Indigo League has no Champion until Blue. Either that or Lance was some sort of pseudo Champion.

 

[elveonora]

Well after checking, Firered/Leafgreen dialogue suggests there had been other champions before Blue with: "Er-hem! Congratulations, <player>! This floor is the Pokémon Hall of Fame. Pokémon League Champions are honored for their exploits here. Their Pokémon are also recorded in the Hall of Fame. <player>! You have worked hard to become the new League Champion. Congratulations, <player>, you and your Pokémon are Hall of Famers!

Definitely not treated as if he were the very first one
So I guess it's a mystery, I would truly like Game Freak to answer this one day.

 

[Solayoh]

I think it was Norman.

Kanto/Johto share the same league and we know Norman is from Johto.
I think he was a bit of a celebrity as you would expect the Champion to be.
After the humiliation of losing to a greenhorn trainer, who was then beat himself, Norman just couldn't handle the shame, hence why he moved him and his family off to Hoenn.

Also this explains why he knows Prof. Birch, because as a Champion he would likely be in contact with other regions champs and professors.
In fact it was probably Birch that phoned Norman to tell him that there was a gym opening in the region and he should move to Hoenn and take the job.

 

[Silktree]

Origins shows multiple Hall of Fame records, although the pictures are too blurry for the trainers to be seen. Of course, not everyone who enters the Hall of Fame has to function as the active Champion (it's pretty obvious that Red never did). It's quite possible that the person who entered the Hall of Fame before Blue didn't want to stick around, and so Blue didn't need to face anyone after Lance. That would explain Lance's dialogue.

Kanto/Johto share the same league and we know Norman is from Johto.
I think he was a bit of a celebrity as you would expect the Champion to be.
After the humiliation of losing to a greenhorn trainer, who was then beat himself, Norman just couldn't handle the shame, hence why he moved him and his family off to Hoenn.

Norman says in B2W2 that he moved from Olivine City to Petalburg City and became stronger. If anything, he used to be the Olivine Gym Leader, but even that isn't really implied by his dialogue. He would definitely not consider himself stronger as a Gym Leader had he used to be the Champion.

I believe Professor Oak was originally intended to be Champion. His PC has an email from the Elite Four issuing a challenge to all trainers and specifically asking Oak to come to the Pokemon League. I guess the idea was dropped though and ultimately the Indigo League has no Champion until Blue.

But he did come to Indigo Plateau to congratulate the player (even in the Johto games), so the E-mail doesn't really hint at a dropped element. Also, he wouldn't have needed an invitation had he been the Champion. I think it's more likely that Professor Oak was the Champion long ago when he was still a trainer.

 

[Solayoh]

I believe Professor Oak was originally intended to be Champion. His PC has an email from the Elite Four issuing a challenge to all trainers and specifically asking Oak to come to the Pokemon League. I guess the idea was dropped though and ultimately the Indigo League has no Champion until Blue.

But he did come to Indigo Plateau to congratulate the player (even in the Johto games), so the E-mail doesn't really hint at a dropped element. Also, he wouldn't have needed an invitation had he been the Champion. I think it's more likely that Professor Oak was the Champion long ago when he was still a trainer.

But Prof. Oak receives that email before the start of the game, and doesn't arrive there until the end so I doubt its linked.
Also how would the League know that 2 trainers he hadn't even given Pokemon too yet would soon become the Champs?

As we've seen in every game, the Champion is free to roam and do whatever they like as much as possible. So it makes sense that the League have to message them every once in a while to get them to come back to tend to whatever business.

There's programmed data for an OAK fight with a similar yet different team to the one Gary uses, so I believe the original idea might of been that your final challenge is to beat the guy that set you off on your journey, who gave you your first Pokemon, rather than just your rival.

 

[elveonora]

And they should have gone that route in my opinion.

 

[Silktree]

But Prof. Oak receives that email before the start of the game, and doesn't arrive there until the end so I doubt its linked. Also how would the League know that 2 trainers he hadn't even given Pokemon too yet would soon become the Champs?

As we've seen in every game, the Champion is free to roam and do whatever they like as much as possible. So it makes sense that the League have to message them every once in a while to get them to come back to tend to whatever business.

The E-mail merely said "PROF.OAK, please visit us!". They didn't actually expect him to come for a particular event; it was Oak who decided to wait until Blue and Red entered the Hall of Fame. Do you really think that a Champion would be asked to fulfill his job in such a roundabout way? The Champions may have enough free time to pursue other interests, but they shouldn't have to be asked to visit the league.

There's programmed data for an OAK fight with a similar yet different team to the one Gary uses, so I believe the original idea might of been that your final challenge is to beat the guy that set you off on your journey, who gave you your first Pokemon, rather than just your rival.

That trainer data doesn't refer to him as a Champion and it only includes five Pokémon. Anyway, I don't think it matters what Game Freak's original plan might have been. In the story we actually got, Professor Oak obviously didn't lose to his grandson in Indigo Plateau.

 

[DasManiac]

The E-mail merely said "PROF.OAK, please visit us!". They didn't actually expect him to come for a particular event; it was Oak who decided to wait until Blue and Red entered the Hall of Fame. Do you really think that a Champion would be asked to fulfill his job in such a roundabout way? The Champions may have enough free time to pursue other interests, but they shouldn't have to be asked to visit the league.

There's programmed data for an OAK fight with a similar yet different team to the one Gary uses, so I believe the original idea might of been that your final challenge is to beat the guy that set you off on your journey, who gave you your first Pokemon, rather than just your rival.

That trainer data doesn't refer to him as a Champion and it only includes five Pokémon. Anyway, I don't think it matters what Game Freak's original plan might have been. In the story we actually got, Professor Oak obviously didn't lose to his grandson in Indigo Plateau.

I meant Professor Oak may have been intended to be a powerful trainer and was supposed to become Champion.

 

[Osprey]

I don't think- storywise anyways- that there ever even was a Champion to begin with, until your rival gets there first. I mean, Lance tells you that beating him meant you were the champion... IF Rival hadn't gotten there first. Sure, having a Champion at the end might've become the norm and something that every player expects nowadays, but back then? I don't think there was any Champion before the rival.

 

[Team Gaara]

It was, most likely, more or less Lance. If by beating him Blue became Champion, it's clear that, even if he was technically the last of the Elite Four, he was still the trainer you would have to beat in order to become the new Champion~ It even makes sense considering he's the Champion again after Red chooses to train in Mt. Moon, rather than remaining in the Champion spot.

 

[IlluminationTheory]

I believe Professor Oak was originally intended to be Champion. His PC has an email from the Elite Four issuing a challenge to all trainers and specifically asking Oak to come to the Pokemon League. I guess the idea was dropped though and ultimately the Indigo League has no Champion until Blue. Either that or Lance was some sort of pseudo Champion.

I never caught this - that's really cool! I like the idea of the Elite Four being teased from the beginning. As it stands, you usually sort of face them as strangers. It's a bit of a wasted reveal; you play the game, beat the team, eight gyms down, and your reward is... four strangers! And someone you met a few times! Nobody really mentions them, they should be a bit more "present." Or at least make their absence into a plot point - maybe everyone's concerned because the Pokémon League is in shutdown, nobody's seen them, something's up? Gather the badges and investigate, find out what's going on. Not that, but something like that. Make them enigmatic or make them reclusive, make them difficult to trust - just make them characters!

Origins shows multiple Hall of Fame records, although the pictures are too blurry for the trainers to be seen. Of course, not everyone who enters the Hall of Fame has to function as the active Champion (it's pretty obvious that Red never did). It's quite possible that the person who entered the Hall of Fame before Blue didn't want to stick around, and so Blue didn't need to face anyone after Lance. That would explain Lance's dialogue.

Simple enough, and makes sense. I'll go with that!

 

[Solayoh]

I never caught this - that's really cool! I like the idea of the Elite Four being teased from the beginning. As it stands, you usually sort of face them as strangers. It's a bit of a wasted reveal; you play the game, beat the team, eight gyms down, and your reward is... four strangers! And someone you met a few times! Nobody really mentions them, they should be a bit more "present." Or at least make their absence into a plot point - maybe everyone's concerned because the Pokémon League is in shutdown, nobody's seen them, something's up? Gather the badges and investigate, find out what's going on. Not that, but something like that. Make them enigmatic or make them reclusive, make them difficult to trust - just make them characters!

Origins shows multiple Hall of Fame records, although the pictures are too blurry for the trainers to be seen. Of course, not everyone who enters the Hall of Fame has to function as the active Champion (it's pretty obvious that Red never did). It's quite possible that the person who entered the Hall of Fame before Blue didn't want to stick around, and so Blue didn't need to face anyone after Lance. That would explain Lance's dialogue.

Simple enough, and makes sense. I'll go with that!

I really hope Z involves Malva more.
In XY its really not clear she's in Team Flare until the Looker sidequest where she just basically says "oh yeah we in team flare planned did this and that etc"

I think the original Champion in RBY/FRLG quit so whoever beat Lance was guaranteed to be next Champ as he was acting Champ, Gary takes over, who then gets beat by Red who then also quits so they just give the position to Lance full time. Agatha dies, Loreli swans off back to Sevii so they promote Koga and hire Karen and Will.

 

[Kallyle]

I'd like to think that, as others have said, Prof. Oak was the previous Champion. However, after Oak stepped down, there was no one strong enough to defeat the Elite Four and take his place until Blue. In fact, this line of thinking actually still works with or without Prof. Oak. If no one was strong enough to beat the Elite Four after the champ retired, then the Elite Four would obviously be lacking a champion. It just makes too much sense!

 

[Solayoh]

I'd like to think that, as others have said, Prof. Oak was the previous Champion. However, after Oak stepped down, there was no one strong enough to defeat the Elite Four and take his place until Blue. In fact, this line of thinking actually still works with or without Prof. Oak. If no one was strong enough to beat the Elite Four after the champ retired, then the Elite Four would obviously be lacking a champion. It just makes too much sense!

I agree.

Prof. Oak stood down and they had no Champion to replace him, he wanted to focus on his research, so the League was left without a Champ, and decided that Lance would act as Champ for any official business and whoever defeated the E4 first would become Champ.

However, no one was good enough, and there wasn't even that many challengers as the Viridian Gym wasn't even open, so people had to travel to Johto for an 8th badge. (In my mind you can enter the league with any combination of 8 badges from Kanto/Johto).

The E4 beg Prof. Oak to come back, but he can't, he's just too busy, he wants to start work on the PokeDex, as well as this Custom Ball (GS Ball) that he's having delivered soon to study. He sends Ash/Gary off on their adventure, and eventually the E4 email him again saying your grandson has won he';s the new champ so he rushes over there, but by the time he gets there his grandson has already lost the title.

Red then stepped down, to go and catch em all, including Mew, and even travel to Johto, and the league were like, ffs we still not got a champion, lance do you want to take the job permanently?

 

[Silktree]

I doubt that Professor Oak was the Champion in recent years. Some of you don't seem to remember what Agatha had to say about him: "That old duff was once tough and handsome. But that was decades ago. He's a shadow of his former self. Now he just wants to fiddle with his Pokédex. He's wrong. Pokémon are for battling!"

Note the bolded part. Clearly, if Oak was the Champion at any point (which is quite possible), it was decades ago. I highly doubt that there was no Champion for all that time.

I think it would be neat if a new character were linked to Kanto and Johto by giving them a backstory explaining how they used to be the Indigo Champion until they moved to another region, leaving the spot vacant until Blue came along. It would be similar to Steven's story in Emerald and HGSS, although in that case Steven apparently asked Wallace to replace him.