Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

[coolking503]

Prizes aren't hard to get. TO get a shiny it takes like 5-10 minutes of RNGing and to get a good iv'd shiny it takes a couple hours. I would donate stuff I have bred but I don't have wifi any more.

 

[GengarEatBanana]

The tournament idea would certainly attract attention, as would an anouncment on Bulbanews.

We have to realistic here though, as we can't really have an Uber allowed tournament. If that happened it would be just that: An Uber tournament. People would want to win, and therefore would go for the best Pokemon, Ubers.

I'm not saying all Ubers would be banned. Salamence and Garchomp would be fine as they aren't too overpowered this generation as compared to last. However top tiers like Kyogre and Mewtwo shouldn't be allowed to run rampent all over this tournament.

Thanks, and btw I would totally join this tournament

 

[coolking503]

Well, month one on our server would be an Uber metagame, and tons of people play the Uber metagame as it is. So why not have one?

 

[DCM]

The tournament I was planning was standard OU. But perhaps I'll make a poll on a new thread and I'll let you decide

 

[Zekurom]

I agree with the Uber-tier (i.e. free-for-all) tournament. Standard OU would not push the Ubers up appropriately.

 

[DCM]

I don't think the Uber metagame is developed enough currently to hold a legitimate tournament

 

[Angad]

I don't think the Uber metagame is developed enough currently to hold a legitimate tournament

I agree with this, I think OU with Smogon Tiers should work.

 

[Zekurom]

I don't think the Uber metagame is developed enough currently to hold a legitimate tournament

But then maybe the tournament shouldn't be legitimate...? Or at least not legitimate enough to merit any significant prizes.

Otherwise, we'll have all the "Ubers" stuck in Tier 4. (And before anyone says anything, having everything start at the top would not solve this problem, as the "Ubers" would get pushed down to Tier 6 instead.)

*edit* Also, what's this about a "developed metagame"? I thought we wanted to develop our own "metagame" from scratch. Isn't that the purpose of this new tiering system?

We have to realistic here though, as we can't really have an Uber allowed tournament. If that happened it would be just that: An Uber tournament. People would want to win, and therefore would go for the best Pokemon, Ubers.

That was sort of the point :sweat:

When everything is in the same tier, you can't really "ban" anything. The point of having this free-for-all tournament is to make the Ubers overused so that they get put in their place.

At least that's the way I see it.

Also, remember the original point of this system:

Why? Because Smogon is solely concerned with removing what makes for a playable metagame. This will be concerned with removing what makes a highly concentrated metagame. The net effect of the Bulbagarden Tier system will be a more spread-out, "open" metagame driving more innovation and more fun.

The point of our tier system is to promote variety and openness, and try to balance usage instead of playability. By balancing usage, we're trying to make the metagame more dynamic, and less of a "oh, here we'll use this, and there we'll use that" kind of deal.

 

[GengarEatBanana]

All your points have been good, but this is a tournament. We are actually giving away prizes here. Don't you want to give the prizes to someone who actually deserves it then someone who just filled a team with six Ubers?

I know this system is all about promoting openess and trying to balance usage, but couldn't that come later? Couldn't this tournament just be a bit of an introduction to get people to realize about this tiering system? We don't have to rush into this remember.

 

[Zekurom]

All your points have been good, but this is a tournament. We are actually giving away prizes here. Don't you want to give the prizes to someone who actually deserves it then someone who just filled a team with six Ubers?

There's strategy in Uber usage too, remember. There's a Youtube video somewhere of a guy who defeated an entire Uber team using a single level 100 Magikarp.

If this is going to be a huge tournament with substantial prizes, I'd actually suggest not using our tier system for that, because it's so underdeveloped at this point. Save it for next year.

I know this system is all about promoting openess and trying to balance usage, but couldn't that come later? Couldn't this tournament just be a bit of an introduction to get people to realize about this tiering system? We don't have to rush into this remember.

Well, without a developed tiering system to show for it, I doubt it'll be much good publicity...

 

[GengarEatBanana]

I won't argue as you have valid points, but just keep what I've said in mind.

How long till this tournament anyway?

 

[Zekurom]

I won't argue as you have valid points, but just keep what I've said in mind.

Sure thing.

How long till this tournament anyway?

No idea. You'd have to ask DCM or whoever's organizing it. I only manage the tier system, nothing else.

 

[coolking503]

People act like Ubers isn't a tier for anyone outside of people who don't understand compeitive battling. Its not. There is so much strategy you wouldn't believe it. There are more pokemon allowed than in OU, and as such there are more strategies and viable pokemon. The inclusion of overpowered legionaries generally balances out.

 

[Zekurom]

People act like Ubers isn't a tier for anyone outside of people who don't understand competitive battling. Its not. There is so much strategy you wouldn't believe it. There are more pokemon allowed than in OU, and as such there are more strategies and viable pokemon. The inclusion of overpowered legionaries generally balances out.

And this is exactly why having a "banlist" embedded into an algorithm is a bad idea. Ubers (Tier 7) is only a guideline as to what would be severely overused to the point of being a dominant strategy, and therefore, should be "banned" from most tournaments that are trying to promote variety. But that doesn't mean that it should be banned in all cases.

That would be like saying that any chess players with a rating of 2400 and above are exempted from the game forever.

 

[g3rgni]

I think that any and all official Bulbagarden tournaments should stick to established metagames for the time being. We should, however, be able to have as many unofficial, testing tournaments as we want.

 

[Zekurom]

I think that any and all official Bulbagarden tournaments should stick to established metagames for the time being. We should, however, be able to have as many unofficial, testing tournaments as we want.

I agree completely with this. Until the system is actually developed, we shouldn't be using it for anything official and final. (We can still use it for official stuff, but not something major like a tournament.)

 

[DCM]

Ok, to keep you up to date.

I'm waiting for this project to get it's own subforum so we can really hash these things out, but we can plan now.

I'm aiming for this tournament to fall on the 30th 5:00 PM EST.

In my opinion and what most likely will be happening is this will be an OU tournament. Banlist will follow.

any other questions?

 

[Zekurom]

any other questions?

Yes. Will this tournament affect the tier statistics?

Because we'll have hell with the Ubers after that.

Although, really, if you're willing to wait a few more months for the system to stabilize, I don't see why we can't have them contribute.

 

[coolking503]

One question:

WHY MUST ALL THE TOURNAMENTS BE AT MIDNIGHT?
/end rage

no really, why can't the tournament not be a live tournament?`Yeah, that wont get the one off server usage up, but it will increase consistent usage. And it means people who dont live in the USA can play in the tournament.

lastly, Smogon or PO tiers? I say smogon, and most people agree judging from the vote in my tournament which got over recently.

 

[Zekurom]

no really, why can't the tournament not be a live tournament?`Yeah, that wont get the one off server usage up, but it will increase consistent usage. And it means people who dont live in the USA can play in the tournament.

I think I'd actually agree with this. Also, we need a ladder going.