"Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

[Stratago]

Does anyone other than me think that we'll see a 'complete' form of Kyurem, made whole by all three of the Tao Trio re-fusing together?
By the very nature of what they represent (the Taijitu) , I think it's possible that there's a fourth Forme we haven't seen yet.

EDIT 5/18/12
After drawing a picture the other day of what I mean by a 'Perfect' Kyrem (AKA the Original Dragon whence the Tao Trio came), I thought I should add it into the first post.

Spoiler

(This one is closer up.)

Spoiler

(The Dewott and Lucario are there for scale purposes. And because I like them.)

 

[Xenidal]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

What you refer to sounds like the original dragon. No, I don't think we'll ever see it in-game. And if we do, I don't think it'll be a fourth forme of Kyurem... I think it'd be something entirely different.

 

[Stratago]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

I am talking about the original one. I think that the three of them are trying to become one being again.
I don't think that Kyurem has or will 'devour' the other two (as some have suggested), but I do think that it's actions will be misinterpereted. (Maybe Ghetsis will appeal to it, promising to make it whole again, and then it could be an 'enemy' as far as the story is concernd.) I also think that Zekrom & Reshiram's revival at the end of BW is what returned Kyurem to consciousness.
Anyway, the black/white forms of Kyurem suggest that it's acchieved some form of symbiosis/assimilation with one of them (though in M15 it seems to be able to switch on the fly) so it's logical to think that there'd be a completed, 'perfect' form.
You may be right, though; it might be better to have the original appear in Gen VI, rather than have it be one of Kyurem's Formes, but that would mean that the story wouldn't be finished in BW2...

 

[smalllady]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

It doesn't make sense for Kyurem to have a "complete" forme. As far as Taoism goes, Kyurem represents Wuji, which is boundless and infinite. Wuji is considered to be non-polar, which means there is no balance between Yin and Yang. Sure, Kyurem can absorb the energy of Reshiram or Zekrom and change formes, but by no means is there any balance. The opposite of Wuji is Taiji, or supreme polarity. With Taiji, there is a balance between Yin and Yang. The state of Taiji should be reserved for the original dragon, a seperate being from Kyurem.

 

[El_]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

To me, if they were going to give Kyurem a "complete forme" they would have done it already as opposed to the two formes that it has now. Everyone speculated such a complete forme with it showing Kyurem as the Original Dragon in Pokemon Grey, but thats not what happened.

Theres also the issue of if it has a complete forme, then why isn't said forme debuting in its own movie? Theres no reason why Kyurem shouldn't be able to absorb both energies in the movie unless it can't hold both energies at once, which seems to be the case. I don't see yet another Kyurem forme for M16 either.

I think that Kyurem is simply the Giratina of this Generation, and we have yet to see the Arceus (Original Dragon). Giratina stands for Antimatter and resides where Time/Space do not work, Dialga/Palkia stand for Time/Space and Matter. Reshiram/Zekrom represent energy (natural/technological) with their typings of Fire/Electricity, while Kyurem stands for non energy or lack therefore with its typing of Ice.

So you see, in each of the Dragon trios there exists an opposite of the first two. The Arceus/Original Dragon will be something else entirely and something more grand, standing likely for creation or the height of energy in some sense.

 

[Proxima Centauri B]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

I think the Original Dragon isnt Kyurem. Its a seperate Pokemon from Kyurem, Reshiram and Zekrom and has a different name, we might see it in B2/W2 or in Gen 6 even.

 

[sunyshore]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

i don't know much about the original dragon or if we'll ever really get it, but i know there has to be concept sketches of it someplace deep in game freak's most secret places and i would like to see those.

 

[Stratago]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

It doesn't make sense for Kyurem to have a "complete" forme. As far as Taoism goes, Kyurem represents Wuji, which is boundless and infinite. Wuji is considered to be non-polar, which means there is no balance between Yin and Yang. Sure, Kyurem can absorb the energy of Reshiram or Zekrom and change formes, but by no means is there any balance. The opposite of Wuji is Taiji, or supreme polarity. With Taiji, there is a balance between Yin and Yang. The state of Taiji should be reserved for the original dragon, a seperate being from Kyurem.

It doesn't make sense for Kyurem to have a "complete" forme. As far as Taoism goes, Kyurem represents Wuji, which is boundless and infinite. Wuji is considered to be non-polar, which means there is no balance between Yin and Yang. Sure, Kyurem can absorb the energy of Reshiram or Zekrom and change formes, but by no means is there any balance. The opposite of Wuji is Taiji, or supreme polarity. With Taiji, there is a balance between Yin and Yang. The state of Taiji should be reserved for the original dragon, a seperate being from Kyurem.

But Kyurem is the original dragon. Or, rather, it isn't; 'Kyurem' is what was left behind when the Original Dragon's body and consciousness split because it couldn't balance itself over choosing which of the twins to side with.
Kyurem's classifiction is the 'Boundry' Pokemon, so in that respect he could represent The Wuji; he represents the empty circle and the squiggly line between the white and black halves.
Kyurem lacks the the presence of Yin and Yang, and is now in a state of 'perfect emptiness' (which I suppose could be like Wuji). Still, it was once a being containing both. Reshiram and Zekrom are the same, each lacking the 'two' they need to make 'three'. I believe all three of them are seeking to become whole again. The dragons aren't fighting one another anymore, and are in balance, which is what would cause their reunion.
By this same philosophy, the 'Perfect Kyurem' wouldn't actually be Kyrem anymore, but the sum of its original parts. I'm just calling it 'Perfect Kyurem' because
1) I don't know the Original Dragon's name
2) I'm making an obscure Dragon Ball reference in regards to an incomplete being becoming whole

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Dragon skeleton (Kyurem) =/= Original dragon.

Also, the idea that Kyurem is the remains of the original dragon is a fan theory, it has not been officially confirmed. And really, it just makes more sense that the original dragon would be its own Pokemon species. Maybe for Gen 6 or something, but it's also doubtful that Game Freak will revisit it.

 

[Xenidal]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Dragon skeleton (Kyurem) =/= Original dragon.

Also, the idea that Kyurem is the remains of the original dragon is a fan theory, it has not been officially confirmed. And really, it just makes more sense that the original dragon would be its own Pokemon species. Maybe for Gen 6 or something, but it's also doubtful that Game Freak will revisit it.

Reshiram and Zekrom are the two halves of the original dragon... I find it hard to believe that Kyurem is a completely separate being altogether (being in the same trio with them, as opposed to them being a duo and Kyurem just a separate Pokémon).
I'm thinking the original dragon will make an appearance in Generation VI... something much like Regigigas (entirely unrelated to the story, but still appearing). Maybe the original dragon is the "trio master".

 

[smalllady]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

I believe that all three dragons will have a part in summoning the original dragon. But why should the original dragon be another one of Kyurem's formes? There isn't much evidence to support the theory that Kyurem is literally the "corpse" of the original dragon.

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Dragon skeleton (Kyurem) =/= Original dragon.

Also, the idea that Kyurem is the remains of the original dragon is a fan theory, it has not been officially confirmed. And really, it just makes more sense that the original dragon would be its own Pokemon species. Maybe for Gen 6 or something, but it's also doubtful that Game Freak will revisit it.

Reshiram and Zekrom are the two halves of the original dragon... I find it hard to believe that Kyurem is a completely separate being altogether (being in the same trio with them, as opposed to them being a duo and Kyurem just a separate Pokémon).
I'm thinking the original dragon will make an appearance in Generation VI... something much like Regigigas (entirely unrelated to the story, but still appearing). Maybe the original dragon is the "trio master".

Well it's undeniable that Kyurem is related in some way, but how exactly it is related to the original dragon, has yet to be confirmed.

What I was trying to say is, when the dragon died, it created new species of Pokemon. Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem likely are all related to the original dragon, but are still separate species in their own right.

 

[Stratago]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Dragon skeleton (Kyurem) =/= Original dragon.

Also, the idea that Kyurem is the remains of the original dragon is a fan theory, it has not been officially confirmed. And really, it just makes more sense that the original dragon would be its own Pokemon species. Maybe for Gen 6 or something, but it's also doubtful that Game Freak will revisit it.

Reshiram and Zekrom are the two halves of the original dragon... I find it hard to believe that Kyurem is a completely separate being altogether (being in the same trio with them, as opposed to them being a duo and Kyurem just a separate Pokémon).
I'm thinking the original dragon will make an appearance in Generation VI... something much like Regigigas (entirely unrelated to the story, but still appearing). Maybe the original dragon is the "trio master".

Well it's undeniable that Kyurem is related in some way, but how exactly it is related to the original dragon, has yet to be confirmed.

What I was trying to say is, when the dragon died, it created new species of Pokemon. Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem likely are all related to the original dragon, but are still separate species in their own right.

I know; I said that already. The point I've been trying to make is that, in order for the Original to come back, the three of them would have to come back together. The original one didn't die; it split into two, and the leftovers were 'Kyurem'.
Picture this:
The twins are fighting. The Original One can't decide who to support, because both of them are right. It takes off, flying higher, higher, and then in some kind of very dramatic
light show, splits apart. Zekrom and Reshiram are born of the Yang and Yin within the Original One, and each take 'parts' from the Original One. That which is left behind is Kyurem, which falls to the earth and smashes into the ground, causing all the damage to its body.
I'll liken this to a more visual description: Draw a Taijitu (Yin-Yang), then remove the 'halves' without erasing the outline. That's Kyurem.

 

[voicerocker]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

I think the Original Dragon is just a myth and we'll never see it in-game. It would make little sense to introduce it in Gen 6 as a Pokemon like that would be very important and need to be included in this Gen to keep the story together. I don't see them running the same storyline with the same Pokemon into a 2nd gen. (I know Regigigas was introduced in a later Gen. but the Regis aren't important to the main story of those games either.)

Here's what I think: The Original Dragon doesn't need to be an obtainable Pokemon to represent Taiji (the whole) since that's what its legend explains. Simply by saying "Reshiram and Zekrom use to be 1 Pokemon" validates what it represents, which means it doesn't have to really exist in-game. Plus, remember that the Dragon's legend makes no mention of a 3rd Pokemon coming from the split or of Kyurem at all. Kyurem's connection to Reshiram and Zekrom is only because of what aspect of Taoism they represent, not that they were originally 1 dragon.

If Kyurem had a more powerful forme, we would have seen it by now and it would make no sense for us to get 2 sequels with the same Pokemon on the cover of both in 2 different formes if there was another waiting. I just think the Original Dragon story was used to explain the Taoism relation in an interesting way and relate the events of the legend with the battle between N and the PC.

 

[Jun]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Gen 6 will probably have its own theme, Original Dragon is Unova's theme, I don't want another useless Regigigas..
I was thinking about a "BW3" with Original Dragon, but I can't speak about a random BW3 without BW2's script.
So now I think about an event. A Secret Event, like Arceus in DP.

 

[voicerocker]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Gen 6 will probably have its own theme, Original Dragon is Unova's theme, I don't want another useless Regigigas..
I was thinking about a "BW3" with Original Dragon, but I can't speak about a random BW3 without BW2's script.
So now I think about an event. A Secret Event, like Arceus in DP.

The problem with that is that there is no coding in Black and White for any more Pokemon after Genesect in the Pokedex, who is a "secret event" just like Arceus at this point. I don't think they'll add new Pokemon mid-generation, especially one just 1.

 

[Xenidal]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

I think the Original Dragon is just a myth and we'll never see it in-game. It would make little sense to introduce it in Gen 6 as a Pokemon like that would be very important and need to be included in this Gen to keep the story together. I don't see them running the same storyline with the same Pokemon into a 2nd gen. (I know Regigigas was introduced in a later Gen. but the Regis aren't important to the main story of those games either.)

Just one detail though... the tao trio doesn't have a "trio master" (unless Kyurem is an internal trio master). Alright... nothing's saying that it needs one, but all other trios have one. And introducing it in a later generation is not that unusual... we had Lugia introduced a generation later, then we have Regigas introduced a generation later. I don't really think importance to the story makes much difference. Arceus himself was important to the Generation IV story (well, the mythology / backstory) but he wasn't even obtainable except through some event.

The problem with that is that there is no coding in Black and White for any more Pokemon after Genesect in the Pokedex, who is a "secret event" just like Arceus at this point. I don't think they'll add new Pokemon mid-generation, especially one just 1.

Two ways of handling that:
- Code it into B2 / W2 (or B3 / W3 if such sequels were to exist... but I feel that's getting a bit carried away) and then just make it not tradable back to Black / White. In other words, it would be sort of a "Generation 5 and a half" Pokémon.
Such a thing has never been done before, but similar stuff has been done with items (the GS Ball, for example).
- Make it an alternate forme of Kyurem... a "perfect" forme. Think DBZ... Cell's perfect form could only be achieved by absorbing Android 17 and 18. In a way, he was no longer Cell at all, but a combination of those 3 beings (yet he was still called "Cell"). It could be the same way with Kyurem... even though the original dragon isn't truly Kyurem but a combination of Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem... maybe he could still be called "Kyurem" if Kyurem is the one absorbing the others. (Except there's no evidence that any absorbtion is even going to occur)

 

[voicerocker]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Just one detail though... the tao trio doesn't have a "trio master" (unless Kyurem is an internal trio master). Alright... nothing's saying that it needs one, but all other trios have one. And introducing it in a later generation is not that unusual... we had Lugia introduced a generation later, then we have Regigas introduced a generation later. I don't really think importance to the story makes much difference. Arceus himself was important to the Generation IV story (well, the mythology / backstory) but he wasn't even obtainable except through some event.

Rayquaza serves as "trio master" in Hoenn. Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf have no master, unless you were to count Arceus, but it is already tied to the Sinnoh dragons. Lugia isn't directly related to the Kanto birds either, only in the 2nd movie. In Gold, Silver, Crystal and HG/SS, Lugia has nothing to do with the birds. And again, the Regis were not a part of the direct main storyline, so having Regigigas added later wasn't a big deal. But again with Arceus, it was still part of Gen 4, and even if it was only available through events, it is still available.

Since the Unova dragons all revolve around Taoism, it would be rather pointless to just add the Original Dragon to Gen 6, which will be based on something else. It would be GF basically saying "Just put it in there somewhere".

Two ways of handling that:
- Code it into B2 / W2 (or B3 / W3 if such sequels were to exist... but I feel that's getting a bit carried away) and then just make it not tradable back to Black / White. In other words, it would be sort of a "Generation 5 and a half" Pokémon.
Such a thing has never been done before, but similar stuff has been done with items (the GS Ball, for example).
- Make it an alternate forme of Kyurem... a "perfect" forme. Think DBZ... Cell's perfect form could only be achieved by absorbing Android 17 and 18. In a way, he was no longer Cell at all, but a combination of those 3 beings (yet he was still called "Cell"). It could be the same way with Kyurem... even though the original dragon isn't truly Kyurem but a combination of Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem... maybe he could still be called "Kyurem" if Kyurem is the one absorbing the others. (Except there's no evidence that any absorbtion is even going to occur)

Then the OD would be useless in B/W. Since Freeze Shock and Ice Burn were coded into B/W, compatibility has already been accounted for, so adding another Pokemon and making it non-compatible with the previous games (especially with it being a Legendary Dragon that everyone would want to use) wouldn't make much sense.

Making another forme for Kyurem wouldn't work well either, that would make the other 3 formes seem rather pointless. Having a perfect forme implies that it would be superior to the other formes. Why use Kyurem's normal forme, Black Kyurem, or White Kyurem when you can just have the Ultimate Forme? Still Kyurem is not suggested to be the Original Dragon in the games, that's only fan speculation. That is how Kyurem is different than Cell. And considering that Wuji and Taiji are direct opposites, with Kyurem and its formes representing Wuji or a combination of either Yin or Yang, a being associated with Taiji would have to be a totally different creature in being absent of Wuji.

 

[Pyradox]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Personally, I don't think the Original Dragon will ever be attainable. Maybe we'll see pictures of it in BW2, but I seriously doubt it will be another Kyurem forme. Kyurem has never officially been confirmed to be the corpse of the Original.

I also doubt that the Original Dragon will count as an Arceus/trio master. The point of a master is to keep the trio in balance, and the Tao trio clearly are not.

 

[Stratago]

Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

Man... If there's no spare data on the cartridge for a 'Perfect' forme that pretty much means there won't be one... no matter how much sense I think it would make...
Awww... I wanted Kyurem to have a cool 'this is how I'm supposed to be' forme, rather than a busted frozen chicken or a quazimodo-mutant. That bums me out.