BDSP Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl General Discussion

[Minya_Nouvelle]

Chibi isn't necessarily cheap, just faster to make, perhaps. I like the idea of having a super faithful remake alongside the more ambitious remake instead of just one game that tries to compromise somewhere in the middle. In my mind, BDSP was either going to have this kind of style, or we were going to get just Legends.

Personally, I like the idea of having it be chibi in the overworld, but the first impression wasn't great. If they've polished it up since our first look, I'll be super happy.

 

[Emmy]

In the immortal words of Dolly Parton:

“It takes a lot of time and money to look this cheap, honey.”

 

[Bolt Strike]

ILCA literally stands for “I love computer art”. I’m pretty sure they know their way around artistic 3D designs. They also have plenty of experience with other games with more complex art styles. I don’t really think it’s fair to cite “cheap”ness as a factor either, considering we don’t know how wide the disparity in price between chibi and full-size models is or if there even is one.

They've done artistic designs, but they've never done a full game themselves. There's a major difference between those two, making a full game involves a lot more design and testing. They've assisted other studios with AAA games, but only in a support role, not as the primary developer. They don't seem to be capable of making a full AAA console game themselves (it sounds like they're smaller than Game Freak).

I know I've said it before, but I think what's going on here is pretty obvious.

SwSh has evolved the series's graphics and level design beyond the ubiquitous top-down, tile-based mapping of previous titles. HGSS and ORAS were always going to be inherently faithful to the maps of the original games, because both DP and even XY were still using that same general style. But that kind of faithfulness is no longer inherent, so they're just splitting the difference - people who want the maps and scale of the original DP can find precisely that in BDSP. People who want to see Sinnoh elevated to the Gen 8 graphical level can find that in Legends: Arceus.

Spoiler: SwSh/LA comparison

I don't think it's any sort of indictment of ILCA's capabilities that Game Freak want to handle the more complicated and radical project themselves. It just plain and simply is easier, and less of an ask, to recreate Sinnoh in the top-down, tile-based style it originated in, because the foundation already exists. So you can more readily entrust that kind of project to another company with a degree of confidence that the assignment will be fulfilled correctly. It's only really an issue if you think there was ever a chance of getting both Legends: Arceus and a SwSh-style DP remake, and that they're now compromising on the latter, but I doubt that path was ever really considered (and personally I feel like it'd be kind of redundant).

Outside of Oras not much changed between gen 1 and 3 and 2 and 4. It was still top down sprite based and with similar layouts all still in 2d (gen 4 had some models for buildings I think but most of it was 2d). This is in terms of region layout btw, art style wise a lot did change but not so much that the games layout would be very different. Lets go and oras do keep their original layout so its possible that bdsp could have too in swsh art style not arguing that.

The artstyle only does so much to update the experience, if you keep the gameplay the same it's still similar. We've seen that with the newer remakes like ORAS and LGPE, they look much different but they play largely the same. A behind the back camera wouldn't actually change much, it would just look slightly different. BDSP and LA could still be very different with the same artstyle by virtue of the design and gameplay being different, DPPtBDSP Sinnoh being present day, making it much more modern and populated, along with it being more linear would still make it feel different from the open wilderness of LA Sinnoh.

 

[swiftgallade46]

They've done artistic designs, but they've never done a full game themselves. There's a major difference between those two, making a full game involves a lot more design and testing. They've assisted other studios with AAA games, but only in a support role, not as the primary developer. They don't seem to be capable of making a full AAA console game themselves (it sounds like they're smaller than Game Freak).

Your original comment was “a SwSh style 3D game might've been too much for ILCA.” My point is that ILCA’s specialty is in 3D style games so this really isn’t an issue. Besides, most of the other elements (game design, mechanics, plot, etc.) are already present in the original DP; they just have to copy it over and update the graphics. Any new changes would likely be directed by Masuda who would also likely be there to aid in music composure.

So yeah, I definitely don’t think the chibi art style is a result of any ineptitude from ILCA at all. I doubt that GameFreak/TPCi would have even commissioned ILCA in the first place if they were skeptical of their abilities.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Music yeah you're right, when I say bad music I mean doesn't fit well with the mood of the scenes, kind of like playing a slow song during a hype moment, thats how I felt about the elevator music in swsh on our way to find Leon, it felt off, the track itself was good. Plot can be bad, like Olena randomly showing up outside the hotel room with ESP that we were on our way to find Leon, and proceeding to hand a key over to an employee and dipping instead of just...not showing up to confront us at all.

I mean, "fitting well with the mood" is also heavily subjective. And the same could apply for art styles. I could argue that a chibi style is bad for stuff like distortion world (just an example). And plot is a story, story is art and again, art is subjective. People can dislike and criticise the art direction in the same way as the other elements you described above. The developers actually looked at the feedback and there are noticeable changes as seen in the Switch OLED trailer. Unless phrased disrespectfully, criticism on any aspect of the game should be good to go. If a stylistic choice doesn’t work with someone they should be free to phrase it.

I personally would have preferred the Let's Go art style over this one, but my opinion is currently on hold till we see exactly what alterations they've done. The form in which we saw the games, people had legitimate issues like the lighting and they should be free to point them out and not be banned because "that’s art." Everything else you mention having issues with is also art

 

[SlowGinFizzzz]

I was always one of the people that were hoping the remakes would be like Let's Go in terms of art style and design rather than "Sword/Shield but make it Sinnoh". I don't have a problem with chibis at all, but when BD/SP were first announced, they just... didn't look all that great to me, especially compared to visually similar(-ish) games like Let's Go or Link's Awakening. This being said, I'm confident that the games will look good when they're actually finished. As we've seen in the Switch OLED trailer, they've clearly been working on these issues, and personally I don't expect the promo machine to really start until September since it's just remakes and there probably won't be much new content, so that's another few weeks for them to polish the games.

Maybe they should've gone the OR/AS route and only revealed the logos and release date in that Pokémon Presents lol.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Your original comment was “a SwSh style 3D game might've been too much for ILCA.” My point is that ILCA’s specialty is in 3D style games so this really isn’t an issue. Besides, most of the other elements (game design, mechanics, plot, etc.) are already present in the original DP; they just have to copy it over and update the graphics. Any new changes would likely be directed by Masuda who would also likely be there to aid in music composure.

So yeah, I definitely don’t think the chibi art style is a result of any ineptitude from ILCA at all. I doubt that GameFreak/TPCi would have even commissioned ILCA in the first place if they were skeptical of their abilities.

Thing is that designing a full 3D game like SwSh isn't as simple as "here's some 3D models, done", there's a lot of detail and testing that would need to go into them and with ILCA never having developed a game on their own, can you really trust that they can do that? For all we know, the other developers responsible for those games were responsible for the more detailed models and the testing. That's like claiming you can ride a bike when you've only been able to ride a bike with training wheels on and your parents pushing you. So no, I 100% believe that it's chibi style because ILCA is very limited in what it can do. That might change down the road (assuming the game is successful enough for ILCA to work on another game after this), but for now I think Game Freak is testing if ILCA can walk before they run.

 

[swiftgallade46]

Thing is that designing a full 3D game like SwSh isn't as simple as "here's some 3D models, done", there's a lot of detail and testing that would need to go into them and with ILCA never having developed a game on their own, can you really trust that they can do that? For all we know, the other developers responsible for those games were responsible for the more detailed models and the testing. That's like claiming you can ride a bike when you've only been able to ride a bike with training wheels on and your parents pushing you. So no, I 100% believe that it's chibi style because ILCA is very limited in what it can do. That might change down the road (assuming the game is successful enough for ILCA to work on another game after this), but for now I think Game Freak is testing if ILCA can walk before they run.

And for all we know they had a large role in testing and detailed models in the other games as well so I’m not sure how you can really cite that as any kind of reliable strike against them. I think you underestimate the role they played in the rest of the games in their repertoire.

I really fail to see why the assumption should be that they decided to choose a company that was unskilled. I also don’t see why you would think ILCA simply isn’t capable of anything but chibi models. Especially when you consider that the in-battle models aren’t even chibi. Nor were the models in the vast majority (all?) of the other games they worked on.

 

[Puddle]

I'm of the belief that the chibi models are purely an artistic choice. They're not inferior to full-scale models, they're just... different.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

There's a currently private video on the Official Pokémon YouTube channel's "Pokémon News" playlist. Could it be the next news about these games?

Spoiler

 

[Poke Dragon]

I hope this is it, the fact that we haven't gotten news about the remakes despite this month being Sinnoh month is beyond ridiculous at this point. And if this is the result of Unite getting all marketing attention because "durr mobile" will make it yet another reason why I will not play that crap Tancent drools out.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I hope this is it, the fact that we haven't gotten news about the remakes despite this month being Sinnoh month is beyond ridiculous at this point.

Isn’t "Sinnoh month" US only marketing? Well, such a campaign during remakes when leading to nothing is far from optimal, but I don’t think anything was expected out of a US-only campaign.

 

[Esserise]

Isn’t "Sinnoh month" US only marketing? Well, such a campaign during remakes when leading to nothing is far from optimal, but I don’t think anything was expected out of a US-only campaign.

Yeah, I basically gave up any expectations I had for "Sinnoh month" when it was pointed out that it was just a TPCi thing, which essentially translates to Sinnoh-themed tweets and interest articles on the main website. They actually just uploaded their "let's look back on the Sinnoh region" article, too, which is basically the centerpiece for these focal periods. If there were any coordination intended, I think they probably would have put out a trailer alongside that. Ergo, if we do get a trailer this month, then I think it will probably have just been a coincidence of timing.

(As it happens, the aforementioned article does mention BDSP and Arceus, but just in a casual sort of "y'know, these Sinnoh games have also been announced, so check out their webpages for more info" sort of way.)

A while back, I think Joe Merrick proposed a theory about the current marketing schedule, which I thought made sense: Because Arceus is releasing in January, two months later than the usual release date, they might be following a timetable relative to that game for both games instead of giving BDSP and Arceus each their own press cycles. So like, we won't get information about just one or the other; it'll always come in a pair. But consequently, while we would usually get news about remakes like BDSP in May or June, instead it will be in July or August.

 

[Bolt Strike]

A while back, I think Joe Merrick proposed a theory about the current marketing schedule, which I thought made sense: Because Arceus is releasing in January, two months later than the usual release date, they might be following a timetable relative to that game for both games instead of giving BDSP and Arceus each their own press cycles. So like, we won't get information about just one or the other; it'll always come in a pair. But consequently, while we would usually get news about remakes like BDSP in May or June, instead it will be in July or August.

I mean, they do seem to be marketing both games as two sides of the same Sinnoh remake coin so I can see how they might want to do it that way, but they don't really need to. Not every reveal is going to appeal to everyone and there are some people that will only be interested in one or the other. That might be a mistake, but with Pokemon being Pokemon it's probably not going to hurt them that much.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I hope this is it, the fact that we haven't gotten news about the remakes despite this month being Sinnoh month is beyond ridiculous at this point. And if this is the result of Unite getting all marketing attention because "durr mobile" will make it yet another reason why I will not play that crap Tancent drools out.

I'd be kind of surprised if that was the case because I don't know how much marketing attention Unite is really getting. They had the beta and it's set to release later this week, but it doesn't really seem like there has been that much hype for the game or much attention for it in spite of that. Maybe that's due to how indifferent I am towards the game, especially after learning more about Tancent, but it doesn't really feel like they've given that much attention to Unite.

Yeah, I basically gave up any expectations I had for "Sinnoh month" when it was pointed out that it was just a TPCi thing, which essentially translates to Sinnoh-themed tweets and interest articles on the main website. They actually just uploaded their "let's look back on the Sinnoh region" article, too, which is basically the centerpiece for these focal periods. If there were any coordination intended, I think they probably would have put out a trailer alongside that. Ergo, if we do get a trailer this month, then I think it will probably have just been a coincidence of timing.

(As it happens, the aforementioned article does mention BDSP and Arceus, but just in a casual sort of "y'know, these Sinnoh games have also been announced, so check out their webpages for more info" sort of way.)

A while back, I think Joe Merrick proposed a theory about the current marketing schedule, which I thought made sense: Because Arceus is releasing in January, two months later than the usual release date, they might be following a timetable relative to that game for both games instead of giving BDSP and Arceus each their own press cycles. So like, we won't get information about just one or the other; it'll always come in a pair. But consequently, while we would usually get news about remakes like BDSP in May or June, instead it will be in July or August.

That theory does make sense, but it would be a bit disappointing to wait extra long because they want to present both games at the same time. It probably won't hurt the sales in the long run, but it would seem a tad unnecessary when we could at least get some information on BD/SP sooner rather than later.

 

[Silktree]

A while back, I think Joe Merrick proposed a theory about the current marketing schedule, which I thought made sense: Because Arceus is releasing in January, two months later than the usual release date, they might be following a timetable relative to that game for both games instead of giving BDSP and Arceus each their own press cycles. So like, we won't get information about just one or the other; it'll always come in a pair. But consequently, while we would usually get news about remakes like BDSP in May or June, instead it will be in July or August.

So in other words, BDSP are being treated as DLC, except they're $60 retail games. Good luck with the marketing, TPCi.

But really, they don't have 6 months' worth of content to reveal about these remakes.

It probably won't hurt the sales in the long run,

Why wouldn't it hurt them? Imagine LGPE being released just two months before SwSh. How many parents are keen on buying multiple $60 games in such a timeframe? A lot of kids will have to choose just one game. The fact that BDSP and Legends share a region might make it easier to market them simultaneously, but it also means that they feature largely the same Pokemon, and Legends is primarily catching-driven.

Legends needs DLC to stay relevant until the end of 2022, but TPCi should be worried about people ditching BDSP in favor of Legends. This could have been avoided if they hadn't been in a hurry to release Legends.

 

[Bolt Strike]

So in other words, BDSP are being treated as DLC, except they're $60 retail games. Good luck with the marketing, TPCi.

But really, they don't have 6 months' worth of content to reveal about these remakes.


Why wouldn't it hurt them? Imagine LGPE being released just two months before SwSh. How many parents are keen on buying multiple $60 games in such a timeframe? A lot of kids will have to choose just one game. The fact that BDSP and Legends share a region might make it easier to market them simultaneously, but it also means that they feature largely the same Pokemon, and Legends is primarily catching-driven.

Legends needs DLC to stay relevant until the end of 2022, but TPCi should be worried about people ditching BDSP in favor of Legends. This could have been avoided if they hadn't been in a hurry to release Legends.

I think the idea is that they're being marketed as two sides of the same coin. Want a traditional nostalgic experience like the originals? Play BDSP. Want a more modern experience? Play LA. There will be some conflict inevitably, but I don't think it'll be significant conflict. It's Pokemon, Pokemon always brings in truckloads of money regardless of how good or bad the games are. They could sell a Pikachu shaped turd in a box and it would still sell 10+ million copies. Both games will probably be at or near the top of millions of people's wishlists just because of the behemoth that Pokemon is.

 

[Silktree]

The idea that you don't need to spread out game releases just because of the Pokemon logo is just a little pretentious, not to mention unprecedented. By the same token, why bother promoting these games? They'll sell like hotcakes regardless, right?

From what I've seen, Japan is more interested in BDSP and the west is more into Legends. That should affect sales.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

By the same token, why bother promoting these games? They'll sell like hotcakes regardless, right?

That’s pretty much what they did with Sword and Shield...

 

[swiftgallade46]

The unprecedented wait is one thing but I still highly doubt that it will be much longer before we start getting regular news for one or both titles. If they can fit all the marketing into the 3-4 months before release, then they’ll do it. I don’t like it, but that’s similar to what they did for SwSh which kept a large amount of information completely unrevealed prior to release. Meanwhile SwSh sold very well regardless.