Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl General Discussion

[Alola]

Don't those RPGs have EXP only for party members paricipating in battle?

I think for the most part yes (which just makes sense narratively, too), but there are a couple of exceptions that don't. For example, everyone gains "EXP" in Final Fantasy XIII regardless if they were in battle, or that chapter, or not.

 

[Daren]

Exp sharing is common nowadays in other RPGs--heck, I'm currently playing the otherwise old-school hardcore Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous and even that does it--but Pokémon has proven poor at balancing the new system, and considering the Sw/Sh expansion pass made the problem worse I don't have high hopes fixing it is a priority, and since gen 4 was before they started drastically lowering the number of trainers in the game I'm concerned BDSP is going to break if you don't either skip most of the content or swap constantly.

 

[Alola]

Exp sharing is common nowadays in other RPGs--heck, I'm currently playing the otherwise old-school hardcore Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous and even that does it--but Pokémon has proven poor at balancing the new system, and considering the Sw/Sh expansion pass made the problem worse I don't have high hopes fixing it is a priority, and since gen 4 was before they started drastically lowering the number of trainers in the game I'm concerned BDSP is going to break if you don't either skip most of the content or swap constantly.

This so much. When I first played Shield, I began to overlevel after the fourth Gym naturally. For half the game, I was overleveled compared to everyone else until we reached Leon, who they boosted up in level to suddenly "scale" me to something appropriate; it was a pretty upsetting and lackluster experience. I later did a new game after getting the DLC, and stopped at the Isle of Armor because I wanted to enjoy the isle and Galar simultaneously (which I think is pretty neat to do narrative-wise with your Kubfu and all) as well as get a Squirtle to use. I was surprised when Mustard and Honey threw this EXP. Charm at me that I did not need or ask for, not five steps in the island; of course you can't turn it off. So, for that playthrough, I had to actively avoid Trainers for the first time in my Pokémon playing experience to not be grossly overleveled again.

I don't see signs of the Exp. Charm in BDSP, yet anyway, but yeah - something tells me these games were not made with a consideration to balance at all (esp. if you consider the EXP boost you will also get from Affection, I'm sure).

 

[CynthiaLover]

I've noticed that some people are happy for the EXP All to be back, with their argument being for grinding up new team members. However, wouldn't using EXP Candy achieve the same effect for you with even less time? I would think there would be more explicit interest and inquiries into the candies coming back if grinding is that off-putting for players.

I need to point out something: we don't know if EXP Candies are in these games or not. From what we've seen so far they aren't and even if they are there isn't any real reliable way to farm them outside of maybe the Underground. But even then they won't be nearly as plentiful as Sword/Shield, as the Max Raids gave EXP Candy by the bowlful while if (and I mean IF) EXP Candies can be farmed in the Underground they'll be almost drip-fed to the player due to how mining in the Underground works. Especially since you have a "time limit" to harvest everything in the mining minigame, so if EXP Candies can be farmed in the Underground they'll be no where near as plentiful as Sword/Shield. Especially if things like TMs are down there, which would be more valuable to a player than EXP Candy due to the change back to one-time use. But if they aren't then the auto EXP Share still has value for mitigating the need to grind excessively, something that the Gen 4 games were notorious about. So, the point is, we don't know if EXP Candies are going to be even in BDSP or not. Thus, having the auto EXP Share does hold value if they aren't.

 

[Alola]

I need to point out something: we don't know if EXP Candies are in these games or not.

I don't know why this takes away from my point about it being discussed or desired, though. We didn't know, and still don't know, a number of things about BDSP, but that didn't/doesn't stop conversations from happening about possible or sought features.

From what we've seen so far they aren't and even if they are there isn't any real reliable way to farm them outside of maybe the Underground. But even then they won't be nearly as plentiful as Sword/Shield, as the Max Raids gave EXP Candy by the bowlful while if (and I mean IF) EXP Candies can be farmed in the Underground they'll be almost drip-fed to the player due to how mining in the Underground works. Especially since you have a "time limit" to harvest everything in the mining minigame, so if EXP Candies can be farmed in the Underground they'll be no where near as plentiful as Sword/Shield. Especially if things like TMs are down there, which would be more valuable to a player than EXP Candy due to the change back to one-time use. But if they aren't then the auto EXP Share still has value for mitigating the need to grind excessively, something that the Gen 4 games were notorious about. So, the point is, we don't know if EXP Candies are going to be even in BDSP or not. Thus, having the auto EXP Share does hold value if they aren't.

This is all mostly speculation though, in which I or anyone else could equally speculate in return; you have no proof as of yet of there being methods to farm them and for how much or how little. For example, what if you can exchange one sphere for several candies, with different candies based on the size of the sphere? Obviously the EXP All holds merit for faster leveling, but I don't seen an issue with contemplating faster ways of leveling given the current methods to do so.

 

[CynthiaLover]

I don't know why this takes away from my point about it being discussed or desired, though. We didn't know, and still don't know, a number of things about BDSP, but that didn't/doesn't stop conversations from happening about possible or sought features.

This is all mostly speculation though, in which I or anyone else could equally speculate in return; you have no proof as of yet of there being methods to farm them and for how much or how little. For example, what if you can exchange one sphere for several candies, with different candies based on the size of the sphere? Obviously the EXP All holds merit for faster leveling, but I don't seen an issue with contemplating faster ways of leveling given the current methods to do so.

I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing out that, from what we know so far, EXP Candies may not be a thing in BDSP. We're free to speculate if they are or aren't, that's perfectly fine. I was using the Underground as a form of that, as we don't know if EXP Candies, or even TMs, are able to be mined down there or not. If they are, then they could either be drip-fed via the mining minigame or exchanged for Spheres like you said (although I speculate that Spheres might be used more for the Secret Base statues over anything else, since their original use was Secret Base furniture). Or they could be rewards for certain tasks elsewhere, we don't know. However, considering how these remakes are being fairly (keyword: fairly) true to their source, it's possible that EXP Candies won't be part of it. I mean, they've brought back one-time use TMs, which is a very odd decision, considering ORAS had reusable TMs despite the original RSE having one-shot TMs. Considering some of the decisions they've made for BDSP pay homage to the originals, such as the one-use TMs, Amity Square's restrictions, HM's "returning", and the reintroduction of moves that were removed from Sword/Shield like Return, then it suggests that EXP Candy won't be in these games in order to keep them as true to the core source as possible. Or they could very well be in the games, too, and they just haven't revealed it yet to avoid any more potential backlash. But either way, the auto EXP Share still holds more value long-term in keeping teams leveled properly and reduce the need for endless grinding. And, like others have said, it's no different than many other RPGs. Breath of Fire 4, for example, gives the whole party shared EXP, even if the backrow doesn't actually participate in the battle (as in actually attack the enemy). And in the 3DS Dragon Quest 8 remake the party members that don't go into a dungeon still get EXP regardless. So why the auto EXP Share is such a hot issue when several other RPGs have already do the same thing for years I find strange, as it's the most practical thing.

 

[Alola]

And, like others have said, it's no different than many other RPGs. Breath of Fire 4, for example, gives the whole party shared EXP, even if the backrow doesn't actually participate in the battle (as in actually attack the enemy). And in the 3DS Dragon Quest 8 remake the party members that don't go into a dungeon still get EXP regardless. So why the auto EXP Share is such a hot issue when several other RPGs have already do the same thing for years I find strange, as it's the most practical thing.

Because Pokémon isn't like most RPGs. And I've never liked the term "practical" when used with Pokémon, because that was never the ultimate aim of the franchise. When you think of practicality with Pokémon, they aren't so much Pokémon anymore as they are "1s" and "0s", and which combination of said species, moves, IVs, EVs, natures, and items will complete the game or battle most effectively. Why pick Chikorita when it isn't the "practical" choice for a Johto playthrough? Why evolve your Eevee into a Vaporeon when it isn't the most "practical" option given the fact most games have Water-types as the most abundant type to encounter? Why use Pokémon that don't have 31 IVs in each stat as they aren't the most "practical" to win with? Why keep that Buneary with Klutz, an Ability that is quite impractical? Why use Pokémon with neutral or hindering natures, when that isn't very "practical" for their natural strengths? Everyone plays their own way and I believe Game Freak should try to accommodate as many players as they can for doing so, to make the most enjoyable games possible.

So when we take "practicality" out of the equation, several common reasons you're left with are:

• People find it off-putting how Pokémon they don't battle with magically get EXP. How a Pokémon, who may never see the light of day, suddenly evolves after a battle(s) it never participated in. As people immerse themselves in their gameplay, this can be jarring and disrupt the narrative sense. You aren't raising people in other RPGs as you are Pokémon, and some people prefer that direct interaction of growth that they give their party member. With your backrow example, and other similar games, those party members are still physically present for the fight realistically speaking; the game design just doesn't allow all of them to fight at once, in contrast to the Pokémon who are 100% away from any battle unless sent out.
• Overleveling. The games have been poorly scaled with the EXP All function, with XY being the first and best example of that - there's a reason why it's infamously known as the easiest pair of mainline games, and that's largely because people played with the EXP. Share on (supplemented with Affection's experience boosting). Throw in things like an EXP Charm, and you can steamroll most of the content without any difficulty (on top of largely easy games to begin with, outside of the Ultra games).
• EV placement goes askew as now everyone gets EVs regardless of it was intentional, or practical; naturally, this is moot if you're say, grinding for Special Attack EVs with a party of specially attacking Pokémon. It forces players to go out of their way to prevent that, such as growing and using EV Berries, managing Pokémon in and out of the PC box, or raising Pokémon at different times/areas.
• And lastly, and probably the most important, it takes away a choice unnecessarily. If the choice remained as it did in Gen 6 & 7, literally everyone would be happy; there's no plausible negative to having left that as a togglable option. But taking that choice away effectively alienates a portion of the fanbase as well as a degree of control for our own adventures within these games, which can be frustrating.

 

[RavenRaziel98]

• And lastly, and probably the most important, it takes away a choice unnecessarily. If the choice remained as it did in Gen 6 & 7, literally everyone would be happy; there's no plausible negative to having left that as a togglable option. But taking that choice away effectively alienates a portion of the fanbase as well as a degree of control for our own adventures within these games, which can be frustrating.

One reason that is a bummer for me about that thing is that by not giving me the possibility to choose that I won't be able to finish the one game with exp share and the other without exp share. This way I could do an easy play through and after I'm done I could play the other version with higher difficulty while knowing what to expect.

 

[swiftfox]

And lastly, and probably the most important, it takes away a choice unnecessarily. If the choice remained as it did in Gen 6 & 7, literally everyone would be happy.

Unlikely. Plenty of people were complaining about the EXP Share even when it was optional.

 

[KirbyBulba737]

Unlikely. Plenty of people were complaining about the EXP Share even when it was optional.

It definetely was a lot less people.

 

[swiftfox]

It definetely was a lot less people.

They still complained, a lot.

 

[KirbyBulba737]

They still complained, a lot.

Still less than having it forced always on. Having choice pleases more people.

 

[swiftfox]

Still less than having it forced always on. Having choice pleases more people.

My point here is the idea that everyone would be satisfied if it were still optional is simply wrong.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

My point here is the idea that everyone would be satisfied if it were still optional is simply wrong.

I see your point. You can NEVER make everybody happy. I think the problem with the exp. share had been its progression.

See, I was one of those people I happy with the new exp. share in gen 6. I used to use the held item all the time in games prior, and didn't like the idea of having to level all my Pokemon unevenly. So I played with it off, even though I would've liked to level 2 Pokemon at once. Of course, my complaint was only there when I thought it couldn't get worse. Cue gen 8 when you cannot turn it off, obviously in hindsight I'd rather have the option. If they went back to having it optional, I guarantee most of those complainers from before (myself included) would be singing a different tune, because having that choice means a lot.

 

[Pulsaro23]

Unlikely. Plenty of people were complaining about the EXP Share even when it was optional.

I mean, if people didn't like it back when it was optional, why would it be an improvement that now it can never be turned off?

My point here is the idea that everyone would be satisfied if it were still optional is simply wrong.

Surely, people would've been more satisfied with having a choice here, instead of being forced to use it, even when they don't like it, right? Seriously, this isn't a case of one of those "it's impossible to please everyone" cases, as some seem to make it out to be. Making it an option with an on/off button would solve this and make everyone happy, give an option to those who want to challenge themselves (since having a difficulty setting is an impossibility for GameFreak, apparently) and change literally nothing for those who like to use the EXP Share all the time.

 

[swiftfox]

Surely, people would've been more satisfied with having a choice here, instead of being forced to use it, even when they don't like it, right? Seriously, this isn't a case of one of those "it's impossible to please everyone" cases, as some seem to make it out to be. Making it an option with an on/off button would solve this and make everyone happy, give an option to those who want to challenge themselves (since having a difficulty setting is an impossibility for GameFreak, apparently) and change literally nothing for those who like to use the EXP Share all the time.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. The people who complained about the EXP Share during Gens 6 & 7 thought it shouldn't exist at all.

 

[colours]

so, if i'm correct, the arguments for pro-choice exp share mainly boil down to:

• it's nice to have choices
• exp. share being on all the time breaks immersion for pokemon that aren't actively participating in battle (according to Alola's post)
• it screws up EVs

personally, i agree with about two and a half of these. screwing up EVs is, to me at least, only really important enough depending on the availability of EV-reducing berries. if you're the type of individual who cares about EV-training, then you're more than likely the same type of individual who seeks out EV-reducing berries to begin with to actually manually adjust EVs to your liking anyway. i remember mentioning this in an earlier post but this is a heavy assumption to make. if in these games, for whatever reason, they're not widely available and easy to obtain, then having widely distributed EXP would be a poor choice on Game Freak's part.

it's also nice to have choices, i suppose. not really much to say here. as far as immersion goes, it's not that i disagree with that point in particular, but it's more of a headcanon-y thing than anything else (personally, as an avid jrpg player, i'm not sure if it's quite a fair comparison to paint most jrpgs in such a broad brushstroke in regards to character participation. there's more nuance to it than that, but i'll leave it at that).

 

[NealIRC]

• it screws up EVs

Are we certain pokemon not used in battle, gets EVs?

 

[prog rocker]

Don't those RPGs have EXP only for party members paricipating in battle?

Depends on the game and in some cases it's... kinda weird. For example, in Final Fantasy VI they stop doing this after you reach the Floating Continent (or slightly earlier). With Final Fantasy IX it stops once the party is complete (more or less around the end of Disc 2).

On the other hand, Suikoden Tierkreis didn't have anything... which was problematic since most characters joined at level 1 no matter when you recruited then, so if you like a late game character: tough luck! You have to train him from level 1!

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Are we certain pokemon not used in battle, gets EVs?