BDSP Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl General Discussion

[Oriden]

I'm one of those who are sad that they stripped down underground secret base so much - that they removed the various decorations and the flag game is fact, not just opinion. Heck, I'd even say it's not the same thing anymore in BDSP outside of its name, and personally I don't think hideaway control room is anywhere near as cute or fun as personalizing a room to your liking.

=( I'm still sad that we didn't get updated pokedoll decorations... plus side, though, I don't have to feel like I missed out because I'm not really interested in buying and playing Diamond again just for pokedolls.

 

[colours]

bdsp is "updated diamond" in the same vein that every other remake was "updated" to reflect the standards of their respective generation. yes, oras had mega-evolutions, but so did x/y. yes, hgss had battle frontier, but so did platinum. each remade added something to compensate for what they "took away" from their respective games. hgss removed the traditional game corner, oras removed the battle frontier. while opinions on these two features greatly vary, the fact remains that remakes removing things that have previously existed in their base games is nothing new, nor is it really unique to bdsp for that matter.

not to say this is good practice (because it's not), but i think there's nuance in the discussion of "bdsp is scaled back diamond" which comes from a place of great cynicism, from how i see it.

 

[Chidamari Sketch]

I'm overall fine with the Grand Underground and what I can get off of it; I just don't get the whole "statues replacing decorations" thing. Like, I feel as if this statue feature could easily coincide with an otherwise fully customizable secret base without having to outright suppress the former. Maybe just making a special room for the statue feature called somefin to the effect of "Secret Shrine" or something, and have it be connected via an extra door/room you could just drill in without anything removed. I'm spitballing here, but that's the only real criticism I have for that new underground.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Nah.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

So... you want to try and convince people that BDSP are overcriticized but then when someone explains why they're criticizing it you just hide behind "LOL opinions"? Maybe you might want to elaborate a bit more if you want people to actually understand why you think they're great.

Also, if you're going to pull the opinion card, saying "Nah" doesn't help your case because that comes off as more objective.

Spoiler: Leaks

I don't remember the starters being available in the wild, in DPPt, do you?

Maybe not, but that's also not much more than the originals. I tell you what I do remember though, I remember 2nd gen Pokemon being in FRLG, 3rd and 4th gen Pokemon being in HGSS, and 4th, 5th, and 6th gen Pokemon being in ORAS, yet there seem to be no 5th-8th gen Pokemon in BDSP. Just having slightly more Pokemon than the originals is a step backwards for remakes, past remakes have had far more Pokemon than their originals.

Not really a staple feature, considering it is not available in mainland Galar.

Key word being "becoming". It's not a staple feature yet, but if we consistently get it in more and more games? It becomes less special.

ORAS is literally the only remake precedent we have. So... clearly they could've done the same in BDSP.

Well technically there's also LGPE, but regardless it's not just about remakes vs. non-remakes because they've been doing this consistently for multiple games in a row. They could've, but the fact that they did is not surprising or groundbreaking in the slightest.

Renewed by making it actually playable. DPPt Contests were really convoluted imo.

There's such a thing as flipping to the opposite extreme. A goldilocks solution (not too simple, not too convoluted) would've been better here.

They could've returned because BDSP is supposed to be a faithful remake.

Same with the customization, they could've but it's not groundbreaking for them to follow what the newer games are doing. If anything, not replacing HMs would've garnered complaints similar to the complaints over the graphics being chibi style and keeping the DP teams, they'd have refused to include a modern QoL change and the game would've been worse for it.

Sticker customization is content.

I would disagree, I don't consider aesthetic options to be "content" because it's not really something you can do. You just put it on and it makes something look different.

So what if it is in the postgame?

It's significant because it means you still have to put up with the flawed DP content first when it would've been better to just have the Platinum content from the get-go.

The Pokemon Hideaways are literally new areas

I did forget that, I'll give you that, but that's more like the Mirage Spots being new "areas" in that they're more like short rooms with Pokemon in them than fully fleshed out areas for you to explore and interact with.

I am not going to bother giving you examples, because anything I could say you're going to brush off as "not important".

You could... you know, look at what the features I mentioned had that the ones you listed didn't and then maybe you'd understand why I consider certain ones "important" vs. "not important".

Spoiler alert: It's because those features tended to be more than simple minigames that take all of 2 seconds, minor QoL tweaks to an old feature, or a simplification of an existing feature. The features I listed tended to be much more involved and multifaceted quests and features that either had you repeatedly engage with the content to work towards a secondary goal in the game over time or engage with the content in multiple ways.

bdsp is "updated diamond" in the same vein that every other remake was "updated" to reflect the standards of their respective generation. yes, oras had mega-evolutions, but so did x/y. yes, hgss had battle frontier, but so did platinum. each remade added something to compensate for what they "took away" from their respective games. hgss removed the traditional game corner, oras removed the battle frontier. while opinions on these two features greatly vary, the fact remains that remakes removing things that have previously existed in their base games is nothing new, nor is it really unique to bdsp for that matter.

not to say this is good practice (because it's not), but i think there's nuance in the discussion of "bdsp is scaled back diamond" which comes from a place of great cynicism, from how i see it.

HGSS removing the Game Corner isn't really a good example because they didn't really remove it as much as replace it with a different minigame, and they only did so because of an EU law. And it was pretty much the only thing from GSC that wasn't (aside from the Odd Egg, but that's just a gift and isn't terribly missable). The removals from ORAS and BDSP, on the other hand, don't have the same excuse. Yes, ORAS did have the same problem (and again, that's something that fans and journalists should be calling out Game Freak for doing as considering remakes to only be updates of the original pair is entirely missing the point), but not to the same degree as BDSP. Again, ORAS actually added significant new features. BDSP has only added minor QoL features. There's definitely a difference in HGSS vs. ORAS vs. BDSP, it's been a progression (more like a degradation really) from "full featured remake that includes nearly everything from the third version plus even more" to "glorified remaster with QoL improvements".

 

[Almonds]

They could have just remade Platinum and the controversy would have been a lot less.

I enjoyed ORAS, but the "sticking to the originals" is getting a bit tiring because there's less justification for two versions.

 

[Bolt Strike]

They could have just remade Platinum and the controversy would have been a lot less.

I enjoyed ORAS, but the "sticking to the originals" is getting a bit tiring because there's less justification for two versions.

I think the larger issue with excluding the third version content is that it makes that content largely inaccessible. How are you supposed to engage with that content if they won't include it in the new games? They're not offering an opportunity to buy the third versions, so the only way you can get it is with a copy of the third version on the original console. For new players that weren't playing at the time, this would be prohibitively expensive as it means they'd need the correct hardware to play it (in BDSP's case that might be a bit easier since they could get a 3DS, but what about if you want to play Emerald? You either need a GBA or an older DS model) and a copy of the original. And since those products have been discontinued, your only option would be to go on Ebay and spend a ridiculous amount of money to get them. And even if you did play the originals, would you want to restart the game? You only have one save file and you might lose out on limited time events you had during the game's original run. So what inevitably happens is that a part of Pokemon's history becomes lost and forgotten in the process. The whole point of a remake is so that games that existed on old, discontinued consoles can be resold on a more current one. Since the third versions existed on the same console as the originals, the third versions are subject to the same problem as the originals, so the remake isn't really complete without it.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

yes, hgss had battle frontier, but so did platinum. each remade added something to compensate for what they "took away" from their respective games. hgss removed the traditional game corner

The Game Corner's still there, though, just with a different minigame like Bolt Strike said, so I don't really think the Frontier can be said to be compensating for it. (especially considering the difference in complexity between the two) And there's also the Athlon in HGSS, a feature completely new and not compensating for any other removals.

 

[Kit Chan]

@Boss1708 @Bolt Strike
Pretty sure some of the things you were discussing (on pg 147) came from leaks, which I'm not sure this is the thread for.

@TheCapsFan

 

[colours]

The Game Corner's still there, though, just with a different minigame like Bolt Strike said, so I don't really think the Frontier can be said to be compensating for it. (especially considering the difference in complexity between the two) And there's also the Athlon in HGSS, a feature completely new and not compensating for any other removals.

hgss removed the traditional game corner,

i suppose i wasn't clear enough when i said "traditional", but i did strongly imply "game corner with the slot machines" up to that point, which never made a return, even in these games. fair point with the athlon (which i could've sworn i mentioned but i suppose i didn't).

Again, ORAS actually added significant new features.

like what, exactly, from a noticeable gameplay standpoint? i can give oras credit for adding soaring and new megas that were just about the biggest additions that directly impacted gameplay. the delta episode can be considered new content sure, quality aside (i'm not the biggest fan of the delta episode personally; it's way too short of a post-game story imo and zinnia isn't even rematchable iirc which is a rather large let down to me). the mirage spots, for all intents and purposes, serve a similar, if not the same exact purpose as the pokemon hideaways in bdsp so if we're counting that as a new feature, then the pokemon hideaways should be as well, since they're pretty much only there for one specific purpose (to catch specific pokemon, namely legendaries in the case of specific mirage areas in oras as well as legendary pokemon hideaways in bdsp). perhaps refresh my mind a bit?

i'm not saying, or arguing for that matter (and i'd like to be clear on this), that bdsp is a perfect game because it adds a thousand new things. it doesn't. what i'm saying is that it doesn't do anything differently or new that other remake we've played in the past hasn't already done (for the most part). if you want to argue that makes bdsp unimpressive, sure. but to single it out as if it's the only game that does this is rather disingenuous at best. it's a remake and that means, largely, that it's going to be reflective of the base game with QoL changes. whether one feels those changes are significant enough is certainly a debate to have, however (not one i'm willing to take part in, personally).

 

[Boss1708]

So... you want to try and convince people that BDSP are overcriticized but then when someone explains why they're criticizing it you just hide behind "LOL opinions"? Maybe you might want to elaborate a bit more if you want people to actually understand why you think they're great.

Also, if you're going to pull the opinion card, saying "Nah" doesn't help your case because that comes off as more objective.

Spoiler: Leaks

Maybe not, but that's also not much more than the originals. I tell you what I do remember though, I remember 2nd gen Pokemon being in FRLG, 3rd and 4th gen Pokemon being in HGSS, and 4th, 5th, and 6th gen Pokemon being in ORAS, yet there seem to be no 5th-8th gen Pokemon in BDSP. Just having slightly more Pokemon than the originals is a step backwards for remakes, past remakes have had far more Pokemon than their originals.



Key word being "becoming". It's not a staple feature yet, but if we consistently get it in more and more games? It becomes less special.



Well technically there's also LGPE, but regardless it's not just about remakes vs. non-remakes because they've been doing this consistently for multiple games in a row. They could've, but the fact that they did is not surprising or groundbreaking in the slightest.



There's such a thing as flipping to the opposite extreme. A goldilocks solution (not too simple, not too convoluted) would've been better here.



Same with the customization, they could've but it's not groundbreaking for them to follow what the newer games are doing. If anything, not replacing HMs would've garnered complaints similar to the complaints over the graphics being chibi style and keeping the DP teams, they'd have refused to include a modern QoL change and the game would've been worse for it.



I would disagree, I don't consider aesthetic options to be "content" because it's not really something you can do. You just put it on and it makes something look different.



It's significant because it means you still have to put up with the flawed DP content first when it would've been better to just have the Platinum content from the get-go.

I did forget that, I'll give you that, but that's more like the Mirage Spots being new "areas" in that they're more like short rooms with Pokemon in them than fully fleshed out areas for you to explore and interact with.



You could... you know, look at what the features I mentioned had that the ones you listed didn't and then maybe you'd understand why I consider certain ones "important" vs. "not important".

Spoiler alert: It's because those features tended to be more than simple minigames that take all of 2 seconds, minor QoL tweaks to an old feature, or a simplification of an existing feature. The features I listed tended to be much more involved and multifaceted quests and features that either had you repeatedly engage with the content to work towards a secondary goal in the game over time or engage with the content in multiple ways.



HGSS removing the Game Corner isn't really a good example because they didn't really remove it as much as replace it with a different minigame, and they only did so because of an EU law. And it was pretty much the only thing from GSC that wasn't (aside from the Odd Egg, but that's just a gift and isn't terribly missable). The removals from ORAS and BDSP, on the other hand, don't have the same excuse. Yes, ORAS did have the same problem (and again, that's something that fans and journalists should be calling out Game Freak for doing as considering remakes to only be updates of the original pair is entirely missing the point), but not to the same degree as BDSP. Again, ORAS actually added significant new features. BDSP has only added minor QoL features. There's definitely a difference in HGSS vs. ORAS vs. BDSP, it's been a progression (more like a degradation really) from "full featured remake that includes nearly everything from the third version plus even more" to "glorified remaster with QoL improvements".

So... you want to try and convince people that BDSP are overcriticized but then when someone explains why they're criticizing it you just hide behind "LOL opinions"? Maybe you might want to elaborate a bit more if you want people to actually understand why you think they're great.

Also, if you're going to pull the opinion card, saying "Nah" doesn't help your case because that comes off as more objective.

Spoiler: Leaks

Maybe not, but that's also not much more than the originals. I tell you what I do remember though, I remember 2nd gen Pokemon being in FRLG, 3rd and 4th gen Pokemon being in HGSS, and 4th, 5th, and 6th gen Pokemon being in ORAS, yet there seem to be no 5th-8th gen Pokemon in BDSP. Just having slightly more Pokemon than the originals is a step backwards for remakes, past remakes have had far more Pokemon than their originals.



Key word being "becoming". It's not a staple feature yet, but if we consistently get it in more and more games? It becomes less special.



Well technically there's also LGPE, but regardless it's not just about remakes vs. non-remakes because they've been doing this consistently for multiple games in a row. They could've, but the fact that they did is not surprising or groundbreaking in the slightest.



There's such a thing as flipping to the opposite extreme. A goldilocks solution (not too simple, not too convoluted) would've been better here.



Same with the customization, they could've but it's not groundbreaking for them to follow what the newer games are doing. If anything, not replacing HMs would've garnered complaints similar to the complaints over the graphics being chibi style and keeping the DP teams, they'd have refused to include a modern QoL change and the game would've been worse for it.



I would disagree, I don't consider aesthetic options to be "content" because it's not really something you can do. You just put it on and it makes something look different.



It's significant because it means you still have to put up with the flawed DP content first when it would've been better to just have the Platinum content from the get-go.

I did forget that, I'll give you that, but that's more like the Mirage Spots being new "areas" in that they're more like short rooms with Pokemon in them than fully fleshed out areas for you to explore and interact with.



You could... you know, look at what the features I mentioned had that the ones you listed didn't and then maybe you'd understand why I consider certain ones "important" vs. "not important".

Spoiler alert: It's because those features tended to be more than simple minigames that take all of 2 seconds, minor QoL tweaks to an old feature, or a simplification of an existing feature. The features I listed tended to be much more involved and multifaceted quests and features that either had you repeatedly engage with the content to work towards a secondary goal in the game over time or engage with the content in multiple ways.



HGSS removing the Game Corner isn't really a good example because they didn't really remove it as much as replace it with a different minigame, and they only did so because of an EU law. And it was pretty much the only thing from GSC that wasn't (aside from the Odd Egg, but that's just a gift and isn't terribly missable). The removals from ORAS and BDSP, on the other hand, don't have the same excuse. Yes, ORAS did have the same problem (and again, that's something that fans and journalists should be calling out Game Freak for doing as considering remakes to only be updates of the original pair is entirely missing the point), but not to the same degree as BDSP. Again, ORAS actually added significant new features. BDSP has only added minor QoL features. There's definitely a difference in HGSS vs. ORAS vs. BDSP, it's been a progression (more like a degradation really) from "full featured remake that includes nearly everything from the third version plus even more" to "glorified remaster with QoL improvements".

I am not going to continue this discussion because I realized that a lot of what we're talking about are leaks, and I don't feel like putting spoiler alerts all the time, etc.

So I will just say this: I'm not saying that you are obligated to like these games; what I'm saying is that you are not who decides which feature "counts as important" and which feature "doesn't count as important". ALL FEATURES COUNT (new and old, big and small) because different people enjoy different features.

All you did in your reply, was to condescendingly dismiss every feature and improvement as "not significant", presenting your opinions as facts, which they're not. So I called you out on this.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I don’t know about the best games, but honestly, BDSP are the most dull games to me the franchise has offered in the 3D era. The least creative entries to have ever debuted, arguably. They do not evolve on the art style, they do not evolve on the story beats, they do not evolve on the new features (with most of it being just franchise norms QOL), they do not evolve on the Pokémon designs. A lot of the new features are watered down versions of that existed before.

It’s literally the core concepts of Pokémon: Diamond and Pearl modernised and that’s it. ORAS added two new storylines (Mega evolution and the Delta episode) and expanded on the designs. FRLG had Sevii Islands. But BDSP lack any kind of creative input whatsoever. How am I supposed to take a $60 game seriously that cannot even be bothered to ship with a title screen .

 

[Oriden]

I don’t know about the best games, but honestly, BDSP are the most dull games to me the franchise has offered in the 3D era. The least creative entries to have ever debuted, arguably. They do not evolve on the art style, they do not evolve on the story beats, they do not evolve on the new features (with most of it being just franchise norms QOL), they do not evolve on the Pokémon designs. A lot of the new features are watered down versions of that existed before.

It’s literally the core concepts of Pokémon: Diamond and Pearl modernised and that’s it. ORAS added two new storylines (Mega evolution and the Delta episode) and expanded on the designs. FRLG had Sevii Islands. But BDSP lack any kind of creative input whatsoever. How am I supposed to take a $60 game seriously that cannot even be bothered to ship with a title screen .

This. This is an excellent concise summary of how I feel.

I'll add credit to ILCA for apparently making the battles interesting, but other than that... yeah.

 

[KirbyBulba737]

How am I supposed to take a $60 game seriously that cannot even be bothered to ship with a title screen .

I'm sorry WHAT?

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I'm sorry WHAT?

Spoiler: Leaked Cartridge Information

Information from the leaks: the game ships with a blank screen with the game's logo apparently and the Day 1 patch contains the title introduction sequence. Not to mention the entire soundtrack

 

[KirbyBulba737]

Spoiler: Leaked Cartridge Information

Information from the leaks: the game ships with a blank screen with the game's logo apparently and the Day 1 patch contains the title introduction sequence. Not to mention the entire soundtrack

I mean, it's a somewhat common practice to include parts of a game in the day 1 patch, so is it really that bad, especially considering you shouldn't be able to play the game until launch?

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I mean, it's a somewhat common practice to include parts of a game in the day 1 patch, so is it really that bad, especially considering you shouldn't be able to play the game until launch?

Spoiler

It’s common practice to include major stuff in the Day 1 patch, but I've never seen a game so unfinished that it didn’t ship with a title screen. All games manage that, even free to play ones.

If I'm paying for a $60 (plus shipping and premiums and what not if you’re not privileged enough to be in US/Europe/Japan) game from the highest grossing franchise on the planet, is it that unreasonable to wish for a bare minimum polish of a proper introduction without installing a patch that’s almost as large as the game in download size?

I mean, it would've been fine if these games were being given out for free, but they aren’t. If we're expected to pay a premium I'd expect a premium right out of the box. Why even bother shipping out a game without the patch on it if it’s riddled with incomplete music, bugs, and couldn’t even bother to include a proper title sequence? It doesn’t really reflect that a lot of care was taken to make sure that the experience is smooth.

 

[Oriden]

I mean, it's a somewhat common practice to include parts of a game in the day 1 patch, so is it really that bad, especially considering you shouldn't be able to play the game until launch?

Spoiler

It's pretty bad if you're someone who doesn't have internet access when you go to play it. Like, not having some things without the patch, such as online features? Makes perfect sense. Some content that is plain not accessible without being patched in? Makes sense. Basic parts of the game like the title screen? Cutscenes that are part of the main story? ....no. Noooo, those should definitely be there.

 

[TheCapsFan]

Everyone, I appreciate those of you that have been spoilering the leaks, but please keep discussion of said leaks to the Leaks/Rumors thread. This thread is meant for any discussion of the games’ details that has been publically revealed by TPC or Nintendo. It’s only a couple more days until the games come out, when we’ll close that thread and at that point discussion of those topics can persist here. Thanks guys.

 

[Bolt Strike]

like what, exactly, from a noticeable gameplay standpoint? i can give oras credit for adding soaring and new megas that were just about the biggest additions that directly impacted gameplay. the delta episode can be considered new content sure, quality aside (i'm not the biggest fan of the delta episode personally; it's way too short of a post-game story imo and zinnia isn't even rematchable iirc which is a rather large let down to me). the mirage spots, for all intents and purposes, serve a similar, if not the same exact purpose as the pokemon hideaways in bdsp so if we're counting that as a new feature, then the pokemon hideaways should be as well, since they're pretty much only there for one specific purpose (to catch specific pokemon, namely legendaries in the case of specific mirage areas in oras as well as legendary pokemon hideaways in bdsp). perhaps refresh my mind a bit?

You listed most of them, yeah. The only other major improvement I would include is the Dexnav, which opened up a completely new capture method that also added a ton of Pokemon not in the original RS once you got the National Dex.

As for whether Hideaways are considered a big new feature? Well, yes and no. It's certainly a fairly involved gameplay mechanic, the problem with it is that it's in the Underground and more of a part of that feature than something new.

i'm not saying, or arguing for that matter (and i'd like to be clear on this), that bdsp is a perfect game because it adds a thousand new things. it doesn't. what i'm saying is that it doesn't do anything differently or new that other remake we've played in the past hasn't already done (for the most part). if you want to argue that makes bdsp unimpressive, sure. but to single it out as if it's the only game that does this is rather disingenuous at best. it's a remake and that means, largely, that it's going to be reflective of the base game with QoL changes. whether one feels those changes are significant enough is certainly a debate to have, however (not one i'm willing to take part in, personally).

@PkmnTrainerV summed up what BDSP is doing differently quite nicely actually, I honestly don't know what you're seeing from these games that lead you to think "Yup, this is just what ORAS and other past remakes did" (maybe LGPE, but those games were hated for some of the same reasons people are hating BDSP). These games are the first games to not redo the artstyle to be similar to the other games of its generation, they don't really add elements to the story (new characters, new storyline events, new dialogue), and... a lot of other things we've seen from the leaks don't exist that did in ORAS (if you don't know what else I'm talking about please quote me in the Leaks thread and I'll explain there further). Other past remakes, while they haven't deviated too far from their source material (something that personally disappoints me as it makes them feel outdated) have at least made a lot of changes to the artstyle and battle mechanics to bring them up to par with current entries, they've tweaked the storyline a bit to add more lore to the regions and flesh out some of the characters a bit more, and they've added some new and original sidequests and features (as opposed to BDSP which mainly just changes existing sidequests and features). So as I've said, it feels much more like a remaster than a remake. They could've just ported DP instead of starting from square one and we wouldn't have missed much, whereas if they did the same thing for some of the past remakes, we'd have a much longer list of things we'd be missing.

I am not going to continue this discussion because I realized that a lot of what we're talking about are leaks, and I don't feel like putting spoiler alerts all the time, etc.

So I will just say this: I'm not saying that you are obligated to like these games; what I'm saying is that you are not who decides which feature "counts as important" and which feature "doesn't count as important". ALL FEATURES COUNT (new and old, big and small) because different people enjoy different features.

All you did in your reply, was to condescendingly dismiss every feature and improvement as "not significant", presenting your opinions as facts, which they're not. So I called you out on this.

Small features can count, if there's a lot of them that add up you might have a point there, but in addition to the big features, past remakes had their fair share of small improvements in various features as well so that doesn't really move the needle. If you like them, that's good for you and I'm not going to try and say you're not allowed to like what they're doing or like them more than other past remakes, but you'd be hard pressed to make an argument that BDSP doesn't do less than those previous remakes.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

i suppose i wasn't clear enough when i said "traditional", but i did strongly imply "game corner with the slot machines" up to that point, which never made a return, even in these games. fair point with the athlon (which i could've sworn i mentioned but i suppose i didn't).

Because of changes in gambling laws- you can’t really expect Pokemon to give up its age rating for the sake of one minigame. It’s not like other remakes just leaving behind empty lots or something, it’s more like the sprite changes in international versions. (The slot machines still exist in the Japanese version, actually)