Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to restore

[BulbaBot]

Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to restore data

The Pokémon Company has issued a statement concerning cheating in Pokémon video games. Warns they will not fix glitches arising from cheating or allow hacked Pokémon at events

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[Fennekin]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

I applaud this. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat.

 

[The Outrage]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

The statement also warns players of the risk of trading with a hacked game, as their game may also cease to function.

Okay, so punish victims who may not have known they were being traded illegal Pokemon? Nice. What about the GTS? I'm sure more than a few hacks go through there. Though when have hacks actually cased the games to stop functioning unless they were really bad? Seems more like they're hyping up fear.

 

[Gabo2oo]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

This is weird. I'm not sure about how tournaments work but I was pretty sure several shiny Pokémon were hacked for example, more likely if the Trainer has their team full of them as well. Furthermore, one can't know when one it's trading with a hacked game, so I believe that with banning from tournaments they're referring to Pokémon that are clearly non-legit (like an only-event Pokémon that isn't on a Cherish Ball or had a fateful encounter) instead of those who are likely non-legit but still possible to obtain legally.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

What about the hacked pokemon that are within their 'technical' limits? As we all know, many competitive players (I am totally against this and all the upcoming things by the way, never done them never will) use certain websites to give their pokemon perfect (or near perfect) IVs and EVs and natures, etc. and usually receive them through GTS. These are the majority, it has seemed, of most pokemon in the competitive field. They give them awesome stats that are 'technically' in that respective pokemon's limits, and they almost always go under the radar. Will they be caught?

I ask this because I feel that only obvious hacked pokemon will be caught, like mon's with impossible stats or moves or event legends without a cherish ball for example. I hope that the under-the-radar hacks that we all know from the competitive field are also caught because they have ruined the metagame to save their own personal time.

And what about RNG abuse? That's another method of cheating. Will they also fix that issue?

Personally, I'd love if ALL forms of cheating whether it be custom services, rng abuse, etc. to be caught and stopped. That way everyone will have to train on their own just like everyone else in the world so it can be a more fair metagame for everyone to enjoy.

This is weird. I'm not sure about how tournaments work but I was pretty sure several shiny Pokémon were hacked for example, more likely if the Trainer has their team full of them as well. Furthermore, one can't know when one it's trading with a hacked game, so I believe that with banning from tournaments they're referring to Pokémon that are clearly non-legit (like an only-event Pokémon that isn't on a Cherish Ball or had a fateful encounter) instead of those who are likely non-legit but still possible to obtain legally.

I still hope that those can be stopped too. I doubt they will be caught, but who knows? Even if they are "possible" to obtain legally, taking the shortcut is still cheating imo.

 

[Deitylight]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Personally, as a competitive player I am glad that they are doing this. There are too few Pokémon players who actually go through the time to breed or soft reset for their Pokémon - they just RNG or worse, use these programs to have the Pokémon generated for them - and as hackers have found out exactly how to, these Pokémon aren't picked up on the current hack-checkers.

One idea a friend of mine suggested was GameFreak simply removing IVs. This may sound like a ridiculous proposal at first, but when you think about it, the majority of hacking is done for IVs. Natures can easily be controlled, as can EVs. IVs can be very random at times. Some players will want all 31IVs, while others will want others to be specific values in order to manipulate the type and strength of Hidden Power. All they have to do is give Hidden Power the base power of 70 (the highest it can be) and even have an in-game way to choose its type (like maybe an item that can be used on the Pokémon that changes its type, like a vitamin?). Then, when a Pokémon is migrated over from a previous generation, its stats are recalculated according to the loss of IVs (so Base Stat + EVs) and their Hidden Power type is kept the same until manually changed.

Then, they could add some kind of bar below a Pokémon's stats in the status screen to roughly show how many EVs it has in a certain stat, so those are more visible as well.

In one simple revamp, you can get rid of the main need for hacking and make the game more accessible to new players.

About RNG abuse, apparently game freak is fine with it according to Raikoo.

@Yorumi I talked to a game freak employee at worlds 2011, and I asked him what game freak's view on RNG abuse. He said that game freak doesn't care about RNG abuse at all and they don't consider it cheating at all, they consider it CLEVER that someone has figured out the system and how to manipulate how it works.
http://puu.sh/3qEwo.jpg
Even if it is how the game was intended to be played, game freak clearly shows it doesn't have a problem with RNG abuse.
also, looks like I got the date wrong, if anyone wants me to retake, I will. (26 isn't 29...)

He posted this in the same article that was posted.

...and it can damage the cartridge....

Nintendo. GameFreak. I can understand you wanting to cut down on cheaters at your tournaments. But that is no reason to lie about such things. Those fake GTS servers are no more harmful than you attempting to connect to the official GTS server.

Besides, how do you propose to cut down on said cheating? A lot of "illegal" pokemon are completely indistinguishable from the real thing, even by fan made legitimacy checking systems, which are a lot more stringent than your methods. If you end up banning people who's pokemon look too good to be true, then you'll end up banning and pushing away many players who have no idea such systems even exist.

The funny part about the fake gts server is that it's used for checking if the pokemon is hacked or not! Not to mention it is immensely difficult to tell the difference between a legal-hacked pokemon and a RNG pokemon (which people WILL often mistake for hacked pokemon especially if the team is all shiny).

I already posted my thoughts on the other thread.
Also, are scare tactics really necessary? The only people they are scaring is people who don't hack to begin with.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

And what about RNG abuse? That's another method of cheating. Will they also fix that issue?

Technically that's an exploit, not a cheat.

 

[Cute Charm]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Also, are scare tactics really necessary? The only people they are scaring is people who don't hack to begin with.

Scare people that never hacked games but were thinking about it and/or the people that hack but don't know how things work = Less hackers to deal with in the future.

It's that simple. Of course this could still backfire like Nintendo's "PLEASE DON'T EXPLOIT MISSINGNO.!" campaign...but still.

 

[Bittersweet]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

I think the importance of "purity" when it comes to these games is actually getting more important given how connected the games are beginning to get, and how easy it is to enter the tournaments, both in real life and over WiFi.

Unfair advantages suck. They just suck.

I think it's important for Nintendo to actually emphasise that their tournaments have a no hacking policy to at least try and put everyone on even footing.

However... if you want to hack your own game? Go for it. You own the game. You paid for it. If you understand the risks, I think you should be able to. Just don't use that game for tournaments, or use the Pokémon you hacked. Just don't. If you want to hack your game to make everything Shiny, or to give yourself perfect IVs for all the Pokémon you want, go right ahead.
Just don't enter any tournaments. Don't Trade those Pokémon. Keep them to yourself.

If you enter a tournament, or trade or battle anyone, with Pokémon you know for a fact are hacked, or suspect might be hacked, you're a douchebag. A giant douchebag.

 

[DoctorWhy]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

And what about RNG abuse? That's another method of cheating. Will they also fix that issue?

Technically that's an exploit, not a cheat.

Technically it's subjective.

I view any kind of exploit like RNG as cheating. For one, is unfair to those who play how they're supposed to. Unless you play by the rules and use the methods that were intended (which does not include any kind of exploits) for everyone to use on an even ground then you are cheating.

 

[SnorlaxMonster]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

And what about RNG abuse? That's another method of cheating. Will they also fix that issue?

Technically that's an exploit, not a cheat.

Technically it's subjective.

I view any kind of exploit like RNG as cheating. For one, is unfair to those who play how they're supposed to. Unless you play by the rules and use the methods that were intended (which does not include any kind of exploits) for everyone to use on an even ground then you are cheating.

Cheating means it breaks the rules of the tournament. RNG abuse does not. Therefore, RNG abuse is objectively not cheating. Whether you think it should be against the ruels is a different matter, but it is not cheating.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

However... if you want to hack your own game? Go for it. You own the game. You paid for it.

No, not exactly. While I do not personally believe in the concept of "software as a service", purchasing a copy of the game does not give you permission to modify (by hacking) it. Sure, there may be nothing stopping you if you have the tools and the know-how, but it is decidedly "do at your own risk" territory.

Cheating means it breaks the rules of the tournament. RNG abuse does not. Therefore, RNG abuse is objectively not cheating. Whether you think it should be against the ruels is a different matter, but it is not cheating.

I want to come up with a humorous analogy but I'm having trouble. Anyone remember the snaking controversy in Mario Kart DS?

 

[DoctorWhy]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Snaking is actually a decent comparison XD @SnorlaxMonster; While rng abuse may not be against the actual rules and not officially recognized as cheating, however, it is still, in fact, an unfair method of gaining an advantage over most other players who don't even know how to do it (nor should they need to).

 

[Bittersweet]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

No, not exactly. While I do not personally believe in the concept of "software as a service", purchasing a copy of the game does not give you permission to modify (by hacking) it. Sure, there may be nothing stopping you if you have the tools and the know-how, but it is decidedly "do at your own risk" territory.

That's what I mean; if you own the game, and you don't plan on trading or battling anyone with it, or entering any tournaments, you can go ahead and risk breaking it if you want.

 

[Stratelier]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

That's what I mean; if you own the game, and you don't plan on trading or battling anyone with it, or entering any tournaments, you can go ahead and risk breaking it if you want.

And Nintendo is basically saying "don't come complaining to us if that happens."

Snaking is actually a decent comparison XD

When it lets you finish a given race a good 10-plus seconds sooner than anyone who doesn't, it may be a technically legitimate high-level technique but the advantage it gives you is virtually insurmountable other than by snaking back. Which is why it got nerfed in Mario Kart Wii and MK7 -- you can still 'snake' an extra turbo out of shallow curves or wide areas, but the advantage you get for doing so is much smaller than it was in MKDS.

 

[mysteryracer]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

Personally, I'd love if ALL forms of cheating whether it be custom services, rng abuse, etc. to be caught and stopped. That way everyone will have to train on their own just like everyone else in the world so it can be a more fair metagame for everyone to enjoy.

You're using the words "fair" and "cheating" so loosely, that I'm just gonna lay out the definitions for everyone in this thread and who argue over the metagame before anybody uses such terms again:

Fair: adv. "Without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage"

Cheating: v. "Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination"

And why not "advantage" while we're at it?

Advantage: v. "A condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position."

Since you are claiming that the listed methods are not fair, as in, the player has done something to gain an advantage, which is a condition or circumstance that would put them in a superior position in the supposed Pokemon Battle, I'm going to throw a typical example at you:

There are two different Pokemon players who want the same Pokemon with the same stats, movesets, ability, EV's IV's, nature, and so on. One trainer obtains this specific Pokemon through massive luck and training, while the other player obtains this natural set through a spoofed GTS. Now, both players have the exact same Pokemon, with the exact same stats... etc., but it took one player longer to obtain that Pokemon. Now, these players go into battle with their Pokemon. The first trainer sends out his Pokemon that he trained, while the other trainer sends out his Pokemon that he used a spoofed GTS for. Both Pokemon have the exact same stats, etc.; theoretically, they are genetic duplicates, meaning that every aspect about them is exactly the same gameplay wise.

In order for this battle to be unfair, as you have claimed, it would have to mean that the GTS user would have to have an unjust advantage in this battle. In order for that to happen, the GTS user would have to have to be put in a case where he is in a superior position in the battle. The problem with that is... he's not, because his Pokemon is exactly the same as the other trainer's Pokemon. Logically, therefore, the GTS user does not have an advantage over the other trainer. This means that the GTS user is not, and in no way, possibly playing unfair or cheating, because unfair, by dictionary definition means "trying to obtain an unjust advantage", and cheating means "Act of dishonesty in order to gain an advantage", which cannot hold true, because the GTS player has not gained an advantage to begin with.

Now you could always say that time is the superior advantage that the GTS player had over the other player, and sure, the GTS player had a superior advantage in the method he used to get the Pokemon, but the problem is that the method of getting a Pokemon has nothing to do with the actual battle. If I obtain a game and play it, the quality of the game will not change depending on how I choose to buy it (online, retail, etc.). A game is a game, just like the power of the example spoofed GTS Pokemon is the same as the power of a regularly obtained Pokemon.

Your argument on "unfair" and "cheating" is logically invalid, because you're trying to connect a situation that has nothing to do with competitive battling with such. You're saying that because a player exploited a method that resulted him in achieving the exact same result as the regular player did in less time somehow magically gives the player an advantage over the regular player, when they have the exact same Pokemon with the exact same stats. Honestly, that just doesn't sound right at all.

 

[1quacka1]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

This is weird. I'm not sure about how tournaments work but I was pretty sure several shiny Pokémon were hacked for example, more likely if the Trainer has their team full of them as well. Furthermore, one can't know when one it's trading with a hacked game, so I believe that with banning from tournaments they're referring to Pokémon that are clearly non-legit (like an only-event Pokémon that isn't on a Cherish Ball or had a fateful encounter) instead of those who are likely non-legit but still possible to obtain legally.

What about the hacked pokemon that are within their 'technical' limits? As we all know, many competitive players (I am totally against this and all the upcoming things by the way, never done them never will) use certain websites to give their pokemon perfect (or near perfect) IVs and EVs and natures, etc. and usually receive them through GTS. These are the majority, it has seemed, of most pokemon in the competitive field. They give them awesome stats that are 'technically' in that respective pokemon's limits, and they almost always go under the radar. Will they be caught?

Personally, I'd love if ALL forms of cheating whether it be custom services, rng abuse, etc. to be caught and stopped. That way everyone will have to train on their own just like everyone else in the world so it can be a more fair metagame for everyone to enjoy.

I'm pretty sure competitive players who play at official tournaments RNG abuse, at least that's the impression I get from lurking around Nugget Bridge.

RNG abuse is impossible to catch but it may stop, at least temporarily. Yeah a player's RNG'd Pokémon may look fishy, a team of 6 shinies all with optimal hidden power IVs caught in the 2020s, but if they're within the game's technical limits Nintendo can't do anything about it. Sure they could start being picky about the date you're Pokémon is caught at, but that would just make RNG abuse a bit harder not impossible, ie you might have to advance the frames a bit more. Besides Nintendo have said RNG abuse is fine for official tournaments.

I say it may stop because, at least as of a few months ago, the 3DS roms hadn't been cracked and there isn't yet a 3ds emulator with which to look at memory values with (there is a fake emu online though, probably a virus). This means that the RNG researchers can't look into the code to figure it out. This may sound good to the RNG naysayers but it does also mean that we can't look into the code for anything. A lot of info, like movesets/evo methods, will probably be in the guide - but the "secret" Pokémon at the end of the dex may actually stay secret this time, shiny sprites won't be known until someone finds one (and for some impossible shinies we won't even be able to see it), detailed breeding mechanics won't be known, new stuff akin to the Masuda Method won't be known. Although I'm sure the 3DS will be cracked eventually, especially with all the interest from the Pokémon community's researchers (and their experience at cracking Pokémon games.)

 

[DoctorWhy]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

There are two different Pokemon players who want the same Pokemon with the same stats, movesets, ability, EV's IV's, nature, and so on. One trainer obtains this specific Pokemon through massive luck and training, while the other player obtains this natural set through a spoofed GTS. Now, both players have the exact same Pokemon, with the exact same stats... etc., but it took one player longer to obtain that Pokemon. Now, these players go into battle with their Pokemon. The first trainer sends out his Pokemon that he trained, while the other trainer sends out his Pokemon that he used a spoofed GTS for. Both Pokemon have the exact same stats, etc.; theoretically, they are genetic duplicates, meaning that every aspect about them is exactly the same gameplay wise.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When the resulting pokemon are identical, as in the example you provided, yes the battle itself is equal ground. The point I was making against the methods which allow person B to get that same Pokemon (but in a much shorter length of time, as with RNG for example) is simply the time. While the battle itself is not unfair, I'll give you that, Person A had to spend hours upon hours of their life trying to get extremely lucky while Person B got what they wanted in a few minutes. To me, while the battle later on is fair as you said because their pokemon are just as good as the other, the method of receiving is a matter that many people don't quite agree on. I feel that the much shorter amount of time in Person B's case is simply a big "f*** you" to the person who doesn't know how to rng (or whatever reason they don't use it) who spent many hours of their life actually working for that awesome pokemon.

 

[qixz]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

There are two different Pokemon players who want the same Pokemon with the same stats, movesets, ability, EV's IV's, nature, and so on. One trainer obtains this specific Pokemon through massive luck and training, while the other player obtains this natural set through a spoofed GTS. Now, both players have the exact same Pokemon, with the exact same stats... etc., but it took one player longer to obtain that Pokemon. Now, these players go into battle with their Pokemon. The first trainer sends out his Pokemon that he trained, while the other trainer sends out his Pokemon that he used a spoofed GTS for. Both Pokemon have the exact same stats, etc.; theoretically, they are genetic duplicates, meaning that every aspect about them is exactly the same gameplay wise.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When the resulting pokemon are identical, as in the example you provided, yes the battle itself is equal ground. The point I was making against the methods which allow person B to get that same Pokemon (but in a much shorter length of time, as with RNG for example) is simply the time. While the battle itself is not unfair, I'll give you that, Person A had to spend hours upon hours of their life trying to get extremely lucky while Person B got what they wanted in a few minutes. To me, while the battle later on is fair as you said because their pokemon are just as good as the other, the method of receiving is a matter that many people don't quite agree on. I feel that the much shorter amount of time in Person B's case is simply a big "f*** you" to the person who doesn't know how to rng (or whatever reason they don't use it) who spent many hours of their life actually working for that awesome pokemon.

there is a reason why competitive games like to have as less rng as possible. Any rng in a game will give an unfair advantage in certain time frames. It would have been just as unfair if person B was suuuuper lucky and got it without removing the rng behind it, such is the nature of rng.

 

[mysteryracer]

Re: Pokémon Company issue statement regarding cheating: Warns it won't be able to res

There are two different Pokemon players who want the same Pokemon with the same stats, movesets, ability, EV's IV's, nature, and so on. One trainer obtains this specific Pokemon through massive luck and training, while the other player obtains this natural set through a spoofed GTS. Now, both players have the exact same Pokemon, with the exact same stats... etc., but it took one player longer to obtain that Pokemon. Now, these players go into battle with their Pokemon. The first trainer sends out his Pokemon that he trained, while the other trainer sends out his Pokemon that he used a spoofed GTS for. Both Pokemon have the exact same stats, etc.; theoretically, they are genetic duplicates, meaning that every aspect about them is exactly the same gameplay wise.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When the resulting pokemon are identical, as in the example you provided, yes the battle itself is equal ground. The point I was making against the methods which allow person B to get that same Pokemon (but in a much shorter length of time, as with RNG for example) is simply the time. While the battle itself is not unfair, I'll give you that, Person A had to spend hours upon hours of their life trying to get extremely lucky while Person B got what they wanted in a few minutes. To me, while the battle later on is fair as you said because their pokemon are just as good as the other, the method of receiving is a matter that many people don't quite agree on. I feel that the much shorter amount of time in Person B's case is simply a big "f*** you" to the person who doesn't know how to rng (or whatever reason they don't use it) who spent many hours of their life actually working for that awesome pokemon.

The question at hand is present: "Is legitimacy in obtaining a Pokemon connected to competitive play?" this is where we diverge.

To be honest though, it sounds more as if the argument pro towards legitimacy is an Appeal to Pity fallacy rather than an argument presenting how spoofed GTS trainers give legitimate trainers any actual disadvantage in the competitive scene. According to what you've said, as unbiased as I can put it, this is the logical scale for those who are pro towards legitimacy (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Both Pokemon entering the battle are of equal level
2. It's too bad that one trainer had to spend so much more time just to get the same Pokemon
3. Therefore, generating Pokemon is unfair competitive wise

An Appeal to Pity fallacy is a logical misstep when one of the predicates, intended to create some form of pity, is substituted as evidence for an argument. The fact that one trainer had to spend more time than the other tells us nothing on why generating Pokemon is unfair competitive wise. The problem with spoofed GTS players, etc., recognizing any connectivity pro legitimacy arguments when it comes to competitive play is this problem; it ends up becoming a fallacy when a pro legitimacy player tries to create an argument on how generating Pokemon is unfair.

However, I understand that the pro legitimacy argument isn't as much of an argument on competitive play as it is trying to maintain and impose a form of art and tradition that had initially been set by Nintendo on other players. That tradition (and quite possibly ritual) is the time spent raising the Pokemon and everything that comes along with such. As you've stated, you don't actually believe that the generated Pokemon in the battle I gave an example of (in other words, competitive grounds) is unfair, so we both know that you don't feel spoofed GTS players are doing anything unfair competitive wise. However, I understand that it's aesthetically displeasing to you that not everybody chooses to partake in the art and tradition of raising a Pokemon manually.

The question I have for is this: Is it honestly fair to limit the potential of the competitive scene, because some players don't partake in your tradition, ritual, and somewhat religion of raising Pokemon?