Pokémon Horizons General Discussion/Speculation Thread

[ehh123]

They discarded 25 year old characters like they were nothing, without as much as say why they did it.

Dude, be lucky that they are giving them any sendoff at all. Will it satisfy everyone? No. But I think that is better than nothing.

 

[Mr.Snack]

Dude, be lucky that they are giving them any sendoff at all. Will it satisfy everyone? No. But I think that is better than nothing.

If the series was cancelled, I would be happy that they gave us an additional 11 episodes. That is obviously not the case. The series will continue, they will just retire Ash in an artificial way. That is one of the main problems to me: how artificial Ash´s departure feels. It looks like it was a last minute decision (it definitely was).

Also I´m sorry, but I won´t feel grateful for receiving garbage. A good sendoff was if they used the last 3 years instead of trying to push a new co-protgonist and new episode formula. What I find even sad is that the Journeys format and especially Go were not well received even in Japan and somehow the lesson they take from it is removing the character that was keeping the series from crumbling like a house of cards. Adsolutely insane.

As I said, I´m not gratefull and I won´t ever be.

 

[Hidden Mew]

To be fair, Ash's journey will continue, we just won't follow that journey anymore. Not to mention that we still have the 11 episodes epilogue when they said that.

It still kind of makes the statement from TV Tokyo come off a bit misleading though. I can't really blame them for not announcing the changes right then and to be fair, they didn't confirm a new series with Ash as the protagonist when they made that statement. But at the same time, saying that Ash's adventures would continue did give the impression that he wouldn't be replaced. Getting the announcement of the new series just a couple of weeks later really made it even more surprising in a way. If they just meant that Ash's adventures would continue for this mini-series before being replaced, then that just makes their original statement a bit too misleading for me.

I really doubt they expect to reenact the phenomenom that this franchise was 25 years ago. It's just that the Pokemon anime's popularity has been on the decline for a while now, so they're trying to use new leads to try to attract new fans.

I mean, people on this forum have said that Journeys was unpopular in Japan and mentioned low ratings to prove it. It seems that they were right, then it is not so weird that they try something different with new protagonists.

I'm not sure if Journeys was that unpopular in Japan and I'm still not sure about the higher ups would really care that much about ratings when the anime is a marketing tool for the games more so than anything else. Besides that, I think that there would be other reasons why the series had low ratings, such as changing timeslots, that wouldn't really change with new leads.

If they are trying to use new leads to attract new fans, I'm not sure why they would feel like that's necessary to do now after twenty five years. Having the same lead never really prevented new kids from checking out the anime. Each series is pretty self-contained where you don't need to watch hundreds of episodes in order to follow along with the current series and the writers seemed to know that they get a new audience every few years anyway. Having new leads certainly is going to give the new series more attention and potentially attract more people, but I'm not sure about it leading to a huge increase in ratings or more new fans to the anime than usual. It will take awhile to see how the new leads and series are received in Japan, as well as in other countries when the dub eventually airs, but I still think that replacing your iconic protagonist after twenty five years is a pretty huge risk, something that I think a lot of fans are underselling, and I'm not sure how much payoff they'll get with this change. Granted, while I do want to give the new series a chance, I also don't have the biggest confidence that this will lead to significantly better writing for the anime either.

 

[Mr.Snack]

It still kind of makes the statement from TV Tokyo come off a bit misleading though. I can't really blame them for not announcing the changes right then and to be fair, they didn't confirm a new series with Ash as the protagonist when they made that statement. But at the same time, saying that Ash's adventures would continue did give the impression that he wouldn't be replaced. Getting the announcement of the new series just a couple of weeks later really made it even more surprising in a way. If they just meant that Ash's adventures would continue for this mini-series before being replaced, then that just makes their original statement a bit too misleading for me.

This is borderline false advertising. They already knew Ash would leave so they should have had the decency to stay quiet. Add the Team Rocket Paldean segments and fans had every reason to believe Ash´s journey would continue.

I just wished someone would come forward and give us the true reason for this change. But knowing who we are dealing with, I know that won´t happen.

I'm not sure if Journeys was that unpopular in Japan and I'm still not sure about the higher ups would really care that much about ratings when the anime is a marketing tool for the games more so than anything else. Besides that, I think that there would be other reasons why the series had low ratings, such as changing timeslots, that wouldn't really change with new leads.

From what I could gather by searching japanese boards, the main complain was how they shafted Ash in favour of a new character and the episodic structure, which makes their decision to subtitute Ash for a new character even more nonsensical. Also, you are absolutely right about the change in timeslot.

If they are trying to use new leads to attract new fans, I'm not sure why they would feel like that's necessary to do now after twenty five years. Having the same lead never really prevented new kids from checking out the anime. Each series is pretty self-contained where you don't need to watch hundreds of episodes in order to follow along with the current series and the writers seemed to know that they get a new audience every few years anyway. Having new leads certainly is going to give the new series more attention and potentially attract more people, but I'm not sure about it leading to a huge increase in ratings or more new fans to the anime than usual. It will take awhile to see how the new leads and series are received in Japan, as well as in other countries when the dub eventually airs, but I still think that replacing your iconic protagonist after twenty five years is a pretty huge risk, something that I think a lot of fans are underselling, and I'm not sure how much payoff they'll get with this change. Granted, while I do want to give the new series a chance, I also don't have the biggest confidence that this will lead to significantly better writing for the anime either.

Totally agree. I think the higher ups/whoever calls the shots is overonfident. I also agree that some fans are too otimistic about the new series. Who´s to say we will even have gym battles? It´s pretty obvious from recent years that they want a more episodic show. Also, giving their track record with female characters in the last series, I have no hope for Riko.

About changing your protagonist after 25 years, I still can´t find a single franchise that did it and succeeded. Some people in another tread talked about Marvel, which is nonsensical, since those comics don´t even have a fraction of the popularity they once had, proving my point.

 

[Konja7]

From what I could gather by searching japanese boards, the main complain was how they shafted Ash in favour of a new character and the episodic structure, which makes their decision to subtitute Ash for a new character even more nonsensical. Also, you are absolutely right about the change in timeslot.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised that criticism makes them feel Ash was an obstacle. Other character couldn't take the spotlight without accusations that they shafted Ash.

Now, Ash isn't the protagonist anymore. There will definitely be comparisons with the new protagonists, but it will be weird to complaint that the protagonists have the spotlight.

 

[Hidden Mew]

This is borderline false advertising. They already knew Ash would leave so they should have had the decency to stay quiet. Add the Team Rocket Paldean segments and fans had every reason to believe Ash´s journey would continue.

I just wished someone would come forward and give us the true reason for this change. But knowing who we are dealing with, I know that won´t happen.

I don't think I'd go as far as calling it borderline false advertising. They didn't say anything about a new series with Ash as the main lead when they made that comment. That being said, it still gave fans a false sense of security. I instantly thought that it did confirm that Ash wasn't going anywhere, which did provide some relief from the endless "Is Ash going to be replaced/retired?" debate after his battle with Leon. Plus, with the Team Rocket segments, it made me think that Ash would end up in Paldea too. He technically still can even without being the main lead, but it still gave off a misleading impression.

I could potentially see them providing the reason for this change sometime after the mini series wraps up. I'd be kind of curious about it. I still doubt that this was their plan from the start of Journeys and if it was, it would really make the series feel like even more poorly planned out.

From what I could gather by searching japanese boards, the main complain was how they shafted Ash in favour of a new character and the episodic structure, which makes their decision to subtitute Ash for a new character even more nonsensical. Also, you are absolutely right about the change in timeslot.

I honestly always felt like the screentime issue between Ash and Goh was exaggerated. Maybe it helps that I watch the dub on Netflix, so it's easier for me to binge watch new episodes as opposed to waiting a week for each episode, but it never felt like Ash was shafted in favor of Goh, even during the first year of the series. I can understand the complaints on the episodic structure when I think that does tie in to some of the issues I've had with Journeys.

Totally agree. I think the higher ups/whoever calls the shots is overonfident. I also agree that some fans are too otimistic about the new series. Who´s to say we will even have gym battles? It´s pretty obvious from recent years that they want a more episodic show. Also, giving their track record with female characters in the last series, I have no hope for Riko.

About changing your protagonist after 25 years, I still can´t find a single franchise that did it and succeeded. Some people in another tread talked about Marvel, which is nonsensical, since those comics don´t even have a fraction of the popularity they once had, proving my point.

I can't blame fans for being optimistic since I do still want to enjoy the anime and ideally the new leads will be likable. I just think this change came twenty years too late to work for me. While I wouldn't be surprised if they do skip over Gyms again, I'd still be pretty annoyed. I like the Paldea Gym Leaders and they shouldn't be given the same treatment that the Galar Gym Leaders had. The anime has had good writing for female leads in the past and despite how she was treated, I liked Chloe a lot. She had some good moments and still felt like a highlight of Journeys in spite of also being one its problems at the same time. That being said, coming right after Journeys, a series where the boys got to go on cool adventures with their Pokemon while the token girl stayed at home with her Eevee most of the time, I don't have a lot of hope for Riko's writing at the moment either.

I can't really comment too much on the Marvel comparison when I'm not too familiar on those stories beyond what I hear online, but I don't know if it's the best comparison when they're two different mediums and have different target demographics too.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised that criticism makes them feel Ash was an obstacle. Other character couldn't take the spotlight without accusations that they shafted Ash.

Now, Ash isn't the protagonist anymore. There will definitely be comparisons with the new protagonists, but it will be weird to complaint that the protagonists have the spotlight.

It would be weird if their takeaway from that complaint was that Ash was an obstacle. Plenty of other characters in other series could get the spotlight without making claims that they shafted Ash's screentime, so I don't see why it would be suddenly a problem here to the point where they thought that they needed to replace him. DP in particular did a terrific job balancing out the focus on Ash and Dawn, so it isn't impossible that they could have just done something like that instead.

 

[FelipePR]

If the series was cancelled, I would be happy that they gave us an additional 11 episodes. That is obviously not the case. The series will continue, they will just retire Ash in an artificial way. That is one of the main problems to me: how artificial Ash´s departure feels. It looks like it was a last minute decision (it definitely was).

The Pokémon anime will probably never end as long as the franchise is as big as it is. Pokémon is, first and foremost, a brand, and the anime helps popularize it, attract new people to it, and keep it in popular memory.

In short, it helps with the sale of goods and contracts of rights to use in relation to the Pokémon brand and all products related to it, be it the games, the creatures themselves, the characters, the songs, the logo, etc.

In other words, Pokémon is like Marvel, in which the main profit does not come from the comics or the movies, although, of course, those are considerable. Profit comes from the sale of the brand itself, or rather, rights and various goods related to it.

When it comes to Pokémon, the anime and even the games, I believe, are important for the franchise more because of the cultural impact and brand awareness than the profits they directly achieve.

Well, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Mr.Snack]

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised that criticism makes them feel Ash was an obstacle. Other character couldn't take the spotlight without accusations that they shafted Ash.

Now, Ash isn't the protagonist anymore. There will definitely be comparisons with the new protagonists, but it will be weird to complaint that the protagonists have the spotlight.

It still doesn´t make sense. You have a series with 2 main characters. One is in the show for 25 years and a great deal of people still liked his storyline. The other was a new addition and was not well received. How can your take away be to take out both of them when the old character was basically the reason you still had a steady viewership? I can´t understand.

I also agree 100% that the anime is an advertisement. More reason to not change your character 25 years deep. If you wanted to make experiments, take him out in OS or DP. Not now. Is to huge a risk for such a small reward. I honestly wonder if there is some other reason for this decision, because I can´t rationlize it. No series maintais its popularity when they do a change like this. However, thay absolutely do when they continue doing what they have been doing for 25 years and it worked until now.

About being optimistic, I have no issue with people having hope, but they have to be realistic. The odds are not good for the new series. What upsets me is there are certian places online were people are very aggressive towards old fans like me who are not happy with this (not here, everyone has been wonderful). I have the right to have my reservations and point out what I don´t like without being called a boomer/genwurner/Scot (for what I could gather this refers to an old fan but I don´t really understand what it means). I also saw people like me being called the worst insults you can imagine, in places that are supposely safe from this kind of behviour. No matter how much I hate Riko and Roy, I will never insult people who like them.

One more thing I want to say, although I know I will sound entitled and get hate for it is that it was my generation (and even more those who are a few years older) that allowed this franchise to flowrish and evolve into what it is today. Many already stopped watching, but many, like me, continued. We deserve to exist. We deserve the nostalgia. There are ways to balance pandering to old fans and still create exciting new things to attract and not overwhelm new fans alike. Both types of fans should feel included. When I see stuff like the games changing Pikachu´s iconic cry since it´s inclusion in the games or removing Ash-Greninja, I feel excluded. What harm were those things doing? A thing I learned the hard way in real life is that if you think something is fishy or starting to go wrong you should point it out no matter what other people say or how otimistic/blind/oblivious they want to be.

I appolagise for once again raving like a lunatic, but my life has been hell in the past few months and the weeks since the news of Ash´s departure were the last straw. You will only have to deal with me until the end of this «mini-series». After Ash and my beloved Team Rocket leave, I will leave this forsaken franchise. I already didn´t like the SV games, but I really loved the new species of Pokemon. Now, I can´even look at them without thinking of the marvelous adventures Ash and TR could live with them, but never will. I bought both Scarlet and Violet on launch day and, although I played Scarlet right then, I left Violet to play during the Chritmas holidays. With the anime news I just coudn´t bring myself to. I gave it to a cousin. I am also getting rid of all the merchandise and games I have. I will only keep a couple of Team Rocket figurines I have since I was 3 years old and the Mew card from Pokemon 2000 that I keep in my wallet as a good luck charm at all times.

English also isn´t my first language and, although I am usually quiet fluent, I now discover that trying to write in a language not you own while you are crying makes you look like a beginner level.

Once again, I´m sorry for bothering you with this nonsense. Just bear with be for a couple more weeks. After Team Rocket, my beloved and oldest friends, are gone, I will retreat into the shadows never to see the light of this franchise again.

 

[Broseph08]

The writers had written themselves into a corner for a while. It was clear that by Kalos that Ash losing in contrived ways was just going to make fans angrier than ever and that said writing was starting to feel artificial so they had him become a champion in Alola and even defeat a game champion in Kukui (technically he wasn't the Champ in SM but he was the closest thing to one in the games). From there, the only place to go was World Champion since I assume they realized that Ash just going to regions and beating champions would get boring not just for the audience but them as well. At that point, you might as well give Ash a proper sendoff and have him go out on top.

The Pokemon franchise is in a strange place where it's changing. The games had radical changes to their game design this generation as they finally start to move towards a more modern game design and now the anime for Gen 9 will also be radically different as it won't feature Ash. I understand it may make some people upset but nothing should last forever. If Ash's adventures were static like SpongeBob or the Simpsons, he could stick around but since his whole schtick is getting stronger each region to eventually become a champion, it loses luster when it looks like it'll never and this clearly happened in BW which is why they backtracked in XY. I remember when Ash was hated by casuals a decade ago because most saw him as a stagnant character who would never win. Now he gets to go out on top with Pikachu as the strongest trained Pokemon in the world and beating titans like Steven and Cynthia. And you know what? Casuals love Ash now. Actually accomplishing his goals made it clear his journey hasn't been in vain and he isn't going to be strung around and just failing in comical ways when the league arrives like people thought of him in the past

 

[Johtohfiller]

They discarded 25 year old characters like they were nothing, without as much as say why they did it. They even had the audacity of assuring people that Ash winning agains Leon (a terrible battle in my opinion, since Ash would be washed if he followed the rules of only one gimmick, proving that he still as a long way to go) was not the end of his journey, when, by the time they gave that interview, they wre already aware of his retirement.

Respect for the fans who have followed the series for 25 long years isn´t part of the current writers/producers vocabulary. We old fans are not needed anymore. We are just a burden. They deluded themselves into thinking they can grab enought new viewers to reenact the phenomenom that this franchise was 25 years ago. They are wrong. I´m all for trying new things to grab new viewers, but you should always respect the fans that were with you from the begining. Currently, in different forms of media, there is this view that innovation is the way to go and that, for some reason, it can´t coexist with tradition. I thought Pokemon was different. I was obviously proven wrong.

I appolagize for sounding so petty, but I can´t really explain how important this series is to me. I am not joking or dramatizing when I say that, during a very dark period of my life, an episode of this anime singlehandedly saved my life. It´s thanks to this series that I´m still here today. Seeing it all end, without a valid reason other than innovation, is just to much.

I'd rather wait and see than assume that. I highly doubt the writing staff wants to throw out everything related to Ash's saga, so if it does come to that I'll assume it's marketing being tyrannical and stupid - but even just from a marketing perspective, having Ash and Pikachu show up once in a while is something they could use to build hype. I see no advantage whatsoever to making a clean break.

 

[Kallyle]

I'd rather wait and see than assume that. I highly doubt the writing staff wants to throw out everything related to Ash's saga, so if it does come to that I'll assume it's marketing being tyrannical and stupid - but even just from a marketing perspective, having Ash and Pikachu show up once in a while is something they could use to build hype. I see no advantage whatsoever to making a clean break.

Yeah, I don’t think they’d want to make a clean break either. If they did, there wouldn’t be anything to fall back on. Speaking of continuity in relation to what PM (23) could be like, I think I finally found out a plausible theme/format that would fit another world tour without just being Journeys 2.0 and screwing over Paldea:

What if the story revolved around solving some of the mysteries in the Pokémon World that previous entries had left behind, were never expanded on, or never adapted with the Paldea plot happening in-between regions?

Let’s say Riko and Roy are trying to solve some sort of mystery or prove that some sort of treasure exists, but aren’t sure where to go so they end up having to explore all these regions (kind of like One Piece) for answers/proof. All the writers would have to do is look at certain abandoned plot points or Anime-exclusive material and expand on upon them, having bathe co-leads sticking to one region at a time for an arc instead of constantly jumping from one region to the next every single episode. For example, the Johto arc could involve either Riko or Roy being the one to open the GS Ball when Ash’s group and Kurt could not!

Paldea would be returned to in-between regions, as they would be students at the academy and one of them might take on Paldea’s gym challenge, with the eventual reveal that what they were looking for was in Paldea all along!

 

[DuskAstral]

Also, giving their track record with female characters in the last series, I have no hope for Riko.

It's a bit of an odd statement for me since we got so many female a battlers in JN.

 

[Hidden Mew]

It's a bit of an odd statement for me since we got so many female a battlers in JN.

We also didn't have a proper female lead in Journeys though. It was easily one of the biggest problems I had with the series right off the bat and the decision still seems so baffling to me, especially when most female leads tend to be pretty popular. I don't think that Chloe was necessarily badly written, but keeping her as a minor character who would get screentime every now and then to showcase the next Eevee evolution instead of a main character after she became a trainer at least was such a terrible decision. Dawn being so stagnant in spite of her multiple appearances in Journeys also really rubs me the wrong way. Much like Chloe, I don't think that Dawn is necessarily written terribly in her appearances. She feels a lot more in-character than she did in BW, but not doing anything with Dawn to show how she had progressed in her off-screen adventures is really jarring when they seemingly did that with every other returning character in the series. They could have done the bare minimum by giving her a Typhlosion and they still couldn't be bothered to do that.

On an unrelated note, I finished the storyline for Scarlet/Violet awhile ago and I really hope that they actually give Paldea the attention it deserves even more. Ideally, I think that the series would have to be primarily focused on Paldea to do the storyline justice, but that might be hoping for too much. I would have loved to see Ash become friends with Nemona, Arven and Penny, so that does make this change even more disappointing to me. To be fair, it's hard to say if that would have happened even if they kept Ash given their track record with characters from the games. I hesitate to call them rivals since neither Arven or Penny really feel like rivals compared to Nemona. I just really hope that they don't just jump into adapting the climax with Area Zero with little to no setup. I sadly can see them doing that since they've done in both SM and Journeys. They've removed important events and characters to jump into the climaxes sooner, but it really wouldn't work if they tried to do it with this storyline.

 

[Broseph08]

If Riko is the lead, I don't think she can be compared to any old companion. She will likely be the primary battler and the one who's goal involves having the most fights. That's something we haven't seen in the anime because Ash was always the MC and had that role. If she takes the player character role in the new series, that automatically sets her apart from the other female companions.

 

[Hidden Mew]

If Riko is the lead, I don't think she can be compared to any old companion. She will likely be the primary battler and the one who's goal involves having the most fights. That's something we haven't seen in the anime because Ash was always the MC and had that role. If she takes the player character role in the new series, that automatically sets her apart from the other female companions.

It's hard to say for sure when we don't know what Riko's goal is. While she wouldn't be exactly in the same position as the female companions, the fact that they haven't had any battle active female characters in the main cast for a long time still makes me question if they'll suddenly make the new female lead into a battler. It isn't like Ash's role as the main lead prevented them from doing more with female characters either. Dawn and to a lesser degree May had plenty of battles during their respective series. They weren't the primary battler, but they still had battle active goals and were given pretty consistent focus for their battles. Dawn was basically a co-protagonist alongside with Ash and her Contests were just as important as Ash's Gym battles.

The problem is that they have been less interested in giving the female characters battle active goals since XY. Arguably, I'd say that this started in BW since despite Iris's goal, she really didn't battle or train her Pokemon that much. It was a noticeable downgrade from Dawn in that department. If Riko is going to take the player character role, that would make her different from the female companions, but I just have a hard time seeing them doing that when we haven't had battle active female characters in the main cast for well over a decade at this point. If they aren't interested in making female companions battlers, I don't know if they'd be willing to do that with a new female lead.

 

[Broseph08]

It's hard to say for sure when we don't know what Riko's goal is. While she wouldn't be exactly in the same position as the female companions, the fact that they haven't had any battle active female characters in the main cast for a long time still makes me question if they'll suddenly make the new female lead into a battler. It isn't like Ash's role as the main lead prevented them from doing more with female characters either. Dawn and to a lesser degree May had plenty of battles during their respective series. They weren't the primary battler, but they still had battle active goals and were given pretty consistent focus for their battles. Dawn was basically a co-protagonist alongside with Ash and her Contests were just as important as Ash's Gym battles.

The problem is that they have been less interested in giving the female characters battle active goals since XY. Arguably, I'd say that this started in BW since despite Iris's goal, she really didn't battle or train her Pokemon that much. It was a noticeable downgrade from Dawn in that department. If Riko is going to take the player character role, that would make her different from the female companions, but I just have a hard time seeing them doing that when we haven't had battle active female characters in the main cast for well over a decade at this point. If they aren't interested in making female companions battlers, I don't know if they'd be willing to do that with a new female lead.

It's possible but the Pokemon franchise itself has had female battlers front in center for a long time now in the games (since Gen 2) and side content like Masters and the web animations like Pokemon Evolutions. It wouldn't surprise me if they're finally gonna refresh anipoke itself to match up with the rest of the franchise in that regard

 

[Hidden Mew]

It's possible but the Pokemon franchise itself has had female battlers front in center for a long time now in the games (since Gen 2) and side content like Masters and the web animations like Pokemon Evolutions. It wouldn't surprise me if they're finally gonna refresh anipoke itself to match up with the rest of the franchise in that regard

I'm less confident about that coming right after Journeys. I'd be happy if they would give the female leads battle active goals again, but at this point, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[SamurottMan]

Watch Roy be the main battler >>

I hope hope hope they give us a strong battle oriented female character.

 

[Harryghost]

I am actually curious with what the writers can do with Riko and Roy in the new series. As others seem to agree with, I would really like to see Riko be the battle-oriented character this time around. That was certainly be a breath of fresh air. That being said, I am really excited to see how the story of Riko and Roy ultimately pans out.

Further, I would love if Riko (and Roy) stay even after Generation 9, so that we see her (their) world build across multiple series, as we saw with Ash.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I think that if Riko is Ashs daughter that she’ll stay for several generations… unless she beats Ash immediately