Pokémon Horizons General Discussion/Speculation Thread

[Soublades192]

I'm just saying, the possibility of not just the protagonists being from different regions, but their families too could provide some insight into how they're raised like.

That’s something I would like to see and it would open the possibilities to interesting story ideas

 

[Kurolegacy]

I REFUSE to consider the possibility that Amourshipping will never be canon, and Ash i as romance-blind as Goku.

Well they do say that denial is one of the steps towards acceptance of loss

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

And those parents are Ash and Serena. After they were wed, they moved to Paldea at the behest of Professor Oak, and had a daughter.

Years later, Riko started her Pokemon journey with Roy, the son of Goh and Chloe.

That's my hope, at least.

And I do so like this hope of yours.

 

[Soublades192]

If this new show actually was in a separate universe, then Into the Ashverse confirmed

 

[Soublades192]

Spending more time in each region certainly would have been good for Journeys. It would have helped to make each region feel more distinct, spend more time in locations from the games and it would have given the series some much needed structure, especially during its first year. I'd be happy if they did something like that with this series, but I don't have a lot of faith that they'd do a better job executing this world tour format right after Journeys.

I do like the idea of Riko and Roy traveling around the world as part of their Treasure Hunt though, assuming that they go to one of the schools from Scarlet/Violet. That would potentially give them more reason to stay in different regions for more than just one episode and would still tie their adventures back to Paldea. I'd prefer it if they spent more time in Paldea than traveling around other regions ideally, but it would be one way to make their adventures feel like it's leading them to finding their treasure too.

I really hope that’s the reasoning for Riko and Roy to do a World Tour, for a treasure hunt

 

[Adelon]

Spending more time in each region certainly would have been good for Journeys. It would have helped to make each region feel more distinct, spend more time in locations from the games and it would have given the series some much needed structure, especially during its first year. I'd be happy if they did something like that with this series, but I don't have a lot of faith that they'd do a better job executing this world tour format right after Journeys.

I do like the idea of Riko and Roy traveling around the world as part of their Treasure Hunt though, assuming that they go to one of the schools from Scarlet/Violet. That would potentially give them more reason to stay in different regions for more than just one episode and would still tie their adventures back to Paldea. I'd prefer it if they spent more time in Paldea than traveling around other regions ideally, but it would be one way to make their adventures feel like it's leading them to finding their treasure too.

I don't mind the idea of a world tour format as long as the home base is Paldea.

 

[Enzo]

Wanna know what? There's something I wanna see from both of these little guys.

I wanna see them having actual flaws. I wanna see them actually being flawed people and those flaws being worked on throughout their anime run. And when I say "flaws" I truly do mean actual nasty flaws: give me a Roy who's prideful, a Riko who's stubborn, or idk, just anything that causes conflict between each other and others and that hinders their goals and makes them fail.

I'm equal parts thirsty for some actual character development and for characters who are actually flawed people instead of just having soft, inofensive, uwu quirks ala "Oh I'm just so shy but only when the plot calls for it of course!" or "I'm so indecisive!" or anything like that that we've getting for the last 10 years or something.

 

[Weddingbells]

Wanna know what? There's something I wanna see from both of these little guys.

I wanna see them having actual flaws. I wanna see them actually being flawed people and those flaws being worked on throughout their anime run. And when I say "flaws" I truly do mean actual nasty flaws: give me a Roy who's prideful, a Riko who's stubborn, or idk, just anything that causes conflict between each other and others and that hinders their goals and makes them fail.

I'm equal parts thirsty for some actual character development and for characters who are actually flawed people instead of just having soft, inofensive, uwu quirks ala "Oh I'm just so shy but only when the plot calls for it of course!" or "I'm so indecisive!" or anything like that that we've getting for the last 10 years or something.

Oh my gosh this! I feel like the show has been obsessed with making the characters flawless. Not in a sense that theh are perfect or Mary Sue or whatever you want to call it. But they lack strong character flaws. They are always super nice and never can have actual nasty flaws like selfish, temper, etc. They had that with misty but after SM that side of her is basically gone. The closest was GOH as of now but his social awkwardness felt relevant when the plot needed it to be. Anything outside of that, he had absolutely and I mean absolutely, no issue interacting with others

And please let this be actual negative flaws. Not "I care about people too much" or "I'm a bit shy" or whatever. Let these characters have a legit nasty side to them. Something Ash hasn't had in freaking years which makes him so boring at times


Btw what do you think of SM character flaws of companions? I felt this is a huge reason I couldn't get into the cast despite it being supposedly character driven

 

[Enzo]

Oh my gosh this! I feel like the show has been obsessed with making the characters flawless. Not in a sense that theh are perfect or Mary Sue or whatever you want to call it. But they lack strong character flaws. They are always super nice and never can have actual nasty flaws like selfish, temper, etc. They had that with misty but after SM that side of her is basically gone. The closest was GOH as of now but his social awkwardness felt relevant when the plot needed it to be. Anything outside of that, he had absolutely and I mean absolutely, no issue interacting with others

I can actually pinpoint a reason for this: characters who have actual, deep flaws can be off-putting if not done correctly, especially on kid shows, where most of the characters are somewhat expected to be welcoming and the fanbase doesn't really has as much maturity and critical thinking skills as adults that can (supossedly, mind you) understand these situations and characters better.

Just look the sheer vitrolic hate kid characters in kid shows get due to the "sin" of being imature and often annoying kids - Max is arguably the best example here. Due to situations like this, which brought a great deal of insatisfaction in the earlier series where the characters had actually nasty flaws - Ash being headstrong and having a temper, Dawn being cocky in the beginning, Iris loving to tease Ash - it essentialy meant that they took the best care to make the characters as docile and inofensive as they possibly could.

Which is why I believe we get "domesticated" characters who barely offer any kind of conflict to the greater narrative nowdays.

Btw what do you think of SM character flaws of companions? I felt this is a huge reason I couldn't get into the cast despite it being supposedly character driven

Eh they were largely fine, mostly because SM was just supposed to be a more chill, slice-of-life take on the anime. I would've loved to see more conflict caused by frictions caused by the characters different personalities, but I honestly don't see it as that large of a problem all things considered.

It's basically a case of "would've been nice to have but doesn't makes things crumble for not being there" for me.

 

[Adelon]

I can actually pinpoint a reason for this: characters who have actual, deep flaws can be off-putting if not done correctly, especially on kid shows, where most of the characters are somewhat expected to be welcoming and the fanbase doesn't really has as much maturity and critical thinking skills as adults that can (supossedly, mind you) understand these situations and characters better.

Just look the sheer vitrolic hate kid characters in kid shows get due to the "sin" of being imature and often annoying kids - Max is arguably the best example here. Due to situations like this, which brought a great deal of insatisfaction in the earlier series where the characters had actually nasty flaws - Ash being headstrong and having a temper, Dawn being cocky in the beginning, Iris loving to tease Ash - it essentialy meant that they took the best care to make the characters as docile and inofensive as they possibly could.

Which is why I believe we get "domesticated" characters who barely offer any kind of conflict to the greater narrative nowdays.

Eh they were largely fine, mostly because SM was just supposed to be a more chill, slice-of-life take on the anime. I would've loved to see more conflict caused by frictions caused by the characters different personalities, but I honestly don't see it as that large of a problem all things considered.

It's basically a case of "would've been nice to have but doesn't makes things crumble for not being there" for me.

I actually liked Max as a kid, lol, thought he was entertaining but I can see why people thought he was annoying. I don't mind Iris now but when I was in middle school I hated her.

I never really felt a sense of connection to the Sun and Moon companions, There were too many of them and their personalities seem a little bit too similar or at least I perceived their personalities as being similar.

 

[Konja7]

The world tour part could have worked out much better if we spent more time in a given reason. 4 episodes in this region, back to Kanto, 6 episodes in another region, back to Kanto. I’m hoping they can better Integrate other regions into this series because I think that was the least well received thing about Journeys.

I've noticed many anime for kids want to be mostly episodic. Not saying that there there couldn't be a overarching plot or arcs, but the episodes tend to be very episodic and self-contained.

That said, this isn't new for Pokemon anime. I't has a episodic nature since OS. That's why I'm surprised that there are so much complaints about "fillers" in Journeys.

 

[Konja7]

I can actually pinpoint a reason for this: characters who have actual, deep flaws can be off-putting if not done correctly, especially on kid shows, where most of the characters are somewhat expected to be welcoming and the fanbase doesn't really has as much maturity and critical thinking skills as adults that can (supossedly, mind you) understand these situations and characters better.

Just look the sheer vitrolic hate kid characters in kid shows get due to the "sin" of being imature and often annoying kids - Max is arguably the best example here. Due to situations like this, which brought a great deal of insatisfaction in the earlier series where the characters had actually nasty flaws - Ash being headstrong and having a temper, Dawn being cocky in the beginning, Iris loving to tease Ash - it essentialy meant that they took the best care to make the characters as docile and inofensive as they possibly could.

Which is why I believe we get "domesticated" characters who barely offer any kind of conflict to the greater narrative nowdays.

It's a curious situation. People don't want "perfect" characters, but they don't want flaws that make characters unbearable for them either. Therefore, writing a likeable character for the audience is not easy.

I mean, Serena seems more popular than Iris, but she could be considered more "perfect" in personality.

Furthermore, I think that Max was found more unlikeable among the older audience. Children tend to receive these types of characters better.

 

[Jaye]

Oh my gosh this! I feel like the show has been obsessed with making the characters flawless. Not in a sense that theh are perfect or Mary Sue or whatever you want to call it. But they lack strong character flaws. They are always super nice and never can have actual nasty flaws like selfish, temper, etc. They had that with misty but after SM that side of her is basically gone. The closest was GOH as of now but his social awkwardness felt relevant when the plot needed it to be. Anything outside of that, he had absolutely and I mean absolutely, no issue interacting with others

And please let this be actual negative flaws. Not "I care about people too much" or "I'm a bit shy" or whatever. Let these characters have a legit nasty side to them. Something Ash hasn't had in freaking years which makes him so boring at times


Btw what do you think of SM character flaws of companions? I felt this is a huge reason I couldn't get into the cast despite it being supposedly character driven

I see where you're coming from, but I think you're confusing two different issues. Characters being nice and cordial with one another doesn't mean they lack flaws, nor do they need to have a "nasty side" to be flawed. I can think of several characters in the last decade who were nice people but possessed flaws which played a role in the story (Serena, Clement, Lillie, and Goh for example) and characters who were nice with flaws which were lower stake (Mallow, Sophocles and Chloe). What's more, these flaws led to the show touching on much more interesting and harder hitting subject matter (actual trauma, the regret of not saying a proper goodbye to a dying parent, social anxieties) than it ever did before. How well it did that is a discussion for another time, but the attempt should be acknowledged.

If the issue is "characters have become too nice", then yeah, that's certainly been the trend over the last decade. But I don't see flawless characters here.

I can actually pinpoint a reason for this: characters who have actual, deep flaws can be off-putting if not done correctly, especially on kid shows, where most of the characters are somewhat expected to be welcoming and the fanbase doesn't really has as much maturity and critical thinking skills as adults that can (supossedly, mind you) understand these situations and characters better.

Just look the sheer vitrolic hate kid characters in kid shows get due to the "sin" of being imature and often annoying kids - Max is arguably the best example here. Due to situations like this, which brought a great deal of insatisfaction in the earlier series where the characters had actually nasty flaws - Ash being headstrong and having a temper, Dawn being cocky in the beginning, Iris loving to tease Ash - it essentialy meant that they took the best care to make the characters as docile and inofensive as they possibly could.

Which is why I believe we get "domesticated" characters who barely offer any kind of conflict to the greater narrative nowdays.

Re: the bold part. I don't see this at all.

OS is a beloved series and there's a growing sentiment that Ash's old personality was actually entertaining and a desire to see more of that. People rioted when May replaced Misty. DP remains, to this day, a much-heralded series of which Dawn was a major part. Hell, the idea that Dawn, of all characters, is somehow an offensive character because she got carried away for a few episodes is plain weird to me. My memory could be faulty - it's been a long time, after all - but I don't recall much unhappiness with her at all. Certainly nothing that'd push the staff to "domesticate" their future characters by playing down their flaws.

It's a curious situation. People don't want "perfect" characters, but they don't want flaws that make characters unbearable for them either. Therefore, writing a likeable character for the audience is not easy.

I mean, Serena seems more popular than Iris and Goh, but she was likely more "perfect" in personality.

Furthermore, I think that Max was found more unlikeable among the older audience. Children tend to receive these types of characters better.

I'm not sure children really took to Max, either.

He was a character who introduced himself by lying to Ash about being a gym leader, mocked him for losing in the Silver Conference, and then proceeded to be a brat throughout most of the episode. Then he's rewarded by being allowed to tag-along with Ash and May despite being too young to travel ordinarily. There had to be pay-off for him, where we could see he was going to grow up, or maybe end up in trouble because of that sort of behaviour, but we didn't get that. Max's primary purpose was to be the cause of a dilemma for May towards the end of the Hoenn arc and round-out her character a bit by giving her the opportunity to be a big sister. Otherwise, he spent a lot of his time being too irritating to be entertaining.

 

[Soublades192]

More I think of it, man…. Riko and Roy are gonna have it tough because I’m certain there will be unhealthy comparisons with Ash the moment episode 1 is released. It’s why I believe replacing Ash is gonna be a massive risk, considering he is a character that’s been around for 25 years and to replace him now, it could either work so well or bomb hard

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

I would say people are more drawn to conflicts than character flaws. Sherlock Holmes doesn’t have an arc, but he does have a conflict. People are simply intrigued by the conflict. If there is no interesting conflict or poor payoff to a conflict, then Dissatisfaction runs high. Character flaws are great way to facilitate a conflict or enhance the current conflict.

 

[Hidden Mew]

More I think of it, man…. Riko and Roy are gonna have it tough because I’m certain there will be unhealthy comparisons with Ash the moment episode 1 is released. It’s why I believe replacing Ash is gonna be a massive risk, considering he is a character that’s been around for 25 years and to replace him now, it could either work so well or bomb hard

Yeah, that's bound to happen. I can already see the whole "Who is the better protagonist?" debates too. That's a big reason why I still think that this change happened twenty years too late. There would be significantly less risk if they had started to replace main leads after the original series. It's hard to say what the chances are of the pair being received well for a lot of reasons, but it is a huge risk. I'm just curious about what their expectations are for Riko, Roy and the new series in general. After the initial excitement/curiosity of having new leads wear off, I don't know how many people, or at least casual fans, would be interested in keeping up with the series. A lot of that I'm sure will come down to their personalities and what their goals are ultimately about.

 

[Weddingbells]

I see where you're coming from, but I think you're confusing two different issues. Characters being nice and cordial with one another doesn't mean they lack flaws, nor do they need to have a "nasty side" to be flawed. I can think of several characters in the last decade who were nice people but possessed flaws which played a role in the story (Serena, Clement, Lillie, and Goh for example) and characters who were nice with flaws which were lower stake (Mallow, Sophocles and Chloe). What's more, these flaws led to the show touching on much more interesting and harder hitting subject matter (actual trauma, the regret of not saying a proper goodbye to a dying parent, social anxieties) than it ever did before. How well it did that is a discussion for another time, but the attempt should be acknowledged.

If the issue is "characters have become too nice", then yeah, that's certainly been the trend over the last decade. But I don't see flawless characters here.



Re: the bold part. I don't see this at all.

OS is a beloved series and there's a growing sentiment that Ash's old personality was actually entertaining and a desire to see more of that. People rioted when May replaced Misty. DP remains, to this day, a much-heralded series of which Dawn was a major part. Hell, the idea that Dawn, of all characters, is somehow an offensive character because she got carried away for a few episodes is plain weird to me. My memory could be faulty - it's been a long time, after all - but I don't recall much unhappiness with her at all. Certainly nothing that'd push the staff to "domesticate" their future characters by playing down their flaws.



I'm not sure children really took to Max, either.

He was a character who introduced himself by lying to Ash about being a gym leader, mocked him for losing in the Silver Conference, and then proceeded to be a brat throughout most of the episode. Then he's rewarded by being allowed to tag-along with Ash and May despite being too young to travel ordinarily. There had to be pay-off for him, where we could see he was going to grow up, or maybe end up in trouble because of that sort of behaviour, but we didn't get that. Max's primary purpose was to be the cause of a dilemma for May towards the end of the Hoenn arc and round-out her character a bit by giving her the opportunity to be a big sister. Otherwise, he spent a lot of his time being too irritating to be entertaining.

Yeah no mallow doesn't have a flaw. Her mom episode came right out of nowhere and then immediately forgotten by the hose munut that post credit scene which you could of easily missed. Mallow showed no sigh of regrets or even grief about her mom before that episode and then immediately returned to being her bubbly self after. Not even a mention to her mom to her dad or brother, who we don't even see their reaction to the mom passing away.

Yeah I don't count trauma as a flaw. That just feels weird to say PTSD is a character flaws. That's more an obstacle but not a flaw itself.

And I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm talking more so character flaws that actually draw conflict from one another. What me and Enzo are saying is they seem to get the more "soft" flaws.

 

[Weddingbells]

Yeah, that's bound to happen. I can already see the whole "Who is the better protagonist?" debates too. That's a big reason why I still think that this change happened twenty years too late. There would be significantly less risk if they had started to replace main leads after the original series. It's hard to say what the chances are of the pair being received well for a lot of reasons, but it is a huge risk. I'm just curious about what their expectations are for Riko, Roy and the new series in general. After the initial excitement/curiosity of having new leads wear off, I don't know how many people, or at least casual fans, would be interested in keeping up with the series. A lot of that I'm sure will come down to their personalities and what their goals are ultimately about.

Nah this change is perfect. Let's be honest the kids who watch Ash aren't watching it because they watched Pokemon 20 years ago. That's only the grown adult fans who let's be honest, most have dropped off after OS.

I still don't understand the notion that Ash has to go on for infinity and beyond turn into some Simpsons hybrid

 

[Hidden Mew]

Nah this change is perfect. Let's be honest the kids who watch Ash aren't watching it because they watched Pokemon 20 years ago. That's only the grown adult fans who let's be honest, most have dropped off after OS.

I still don't understand the notion that Ash has to go on for infinity and beyond turn into some Simpsons hybrid

I can understand liking the change or being open to it, but I think calling it perfect is overselling it a bit, especially when I still have my doubts that the writing is going to significantly improve with new leads. And regardless about how you feel about Ash or this decision, it is still a pretty huge risk to change to change the faces of the anime after twenty five years. That was my main point from that post. And I'm pretty sure that plenty of kids like Ash too. It isn't just people who watched from the beginning who would be attached to him. XY is nearly ten years old, so the kids who watched that as their first series would be teenagers/young adults now.

They already had Ash around for twenty five years, so it wouldn't be hard to justify keeping him around even after he became a World Champion. It wouldn't necessarily mean that he'd become some Simpsons hybrid.

 

[Poke Trey]

Pokemon has actual storylines that results in proper conclusions, stuff like Simpsons has no plot, it's just the family getting into random stuff every episode.