Pokemon Journeys: Thoughts So Far

[RetroPokeFan]

While Journeys is doing things differently, I personally have a hard time seeing it lasting more than three years, mainly due to its fast pace and decisions with both Ash and Goh.

This. And I hardly doubt the new Diamond and Pearl games are gonna do much for it especially Legends which I also doubt the anime will touch upon: maybe we'll see some D&P characters return but I think that's about the extent that both games will have impact on.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

With Cinderace's Evolutions, the writers have gone on record to say that they usually evolve Starters whenever they have something Big coming up.

They most likely Evolved Cinderace as quickly as they did because they had the DD Arc coming as quickly as they did. And Goh needed a strong Pokémon (who also Reps the Galar Region) to help him

 

[Sobblelelle]

Spoiler: Small

I mean... it’s not like they cannot explore “deep” concepts without alienating their audience. Just look at Sun/Moon; the most comedic and “childish” (as said by others) era of the series. It still manages to have the most mature portrayal of death I’ve seen in a series like this. It wasn’t exclusive to one or two episodes either, since it cropped up quite often and was a part of a main Pokémon and companion’s arc.
It’s not that hard for Pokémon to delve into “deep” topics now and then.

The anime is a commercial for the games in essence so it’s weird to me that apparently children can understand “deep” things in the games while it needs to be dumbed down for the anime. I’m not a fan of the concept of toning down things for the fear of children not understanding it or being alienated. Children can easily relate to anxiety to do well in exams. Just compare it to the “other side” of being a trainer highlighted in @Islander Princess’s post.

While there were deep moments in SM, I do believe that the majority of characters still acted more comedically in other episodes. I don't know how dense the concentration of mature episodes was in SM but I think it likely benefitted from the large cast size and game character plotlines (at least for Lily's family).

Spoiler: Small

Yea that has always struck me as odd considering that both the games and anime have the same target audience. Like sure, most anime have their portion of comedy even if they are action but why does the literal advertisement for the games dumb things down and make it partially a comedy. It feels like it gives the wrong impression of the series at that point.

It is probably difficult to plan out an entire plot in advance when they also want to tie in remakes and spin-offs, not to mention they are running the anime to carry each region over till the next mainline game, which is probably easier to stretch with comedy which tends to work for all age groups.

Having a separate, shorter plot driven series to run alongside the adventures of Ash and friends would likely be a better representation of the games.

Spoiler: Small

This might sound a little contradictory, which means I probably didn't fully explain my feelings in my initial post: I don't actually like when things get too serious. That's actually one of my major reasons for disliking XY as a series: it felt like a lot of the anime's usual lightheartedness got sucked out of it. I have absolutely no problem with the anime itself being mostly happy and fun, and it's actually one of the things that I do appreciate about Journeys.

I think SM is probably the best example for how I'd like to see Journeys' tone. SM, overall, was a very joyful series. Most of the time, the characters were having fun, they acted goofy, and there was a good amount of humor. But there were also episodes that dealt with more serious subject matter, including death, and it was handled very well and respectfully without feeling too dark or heavy.

I'm definitely not looking for a hardcore, grittier take on the world of Pokémon. Not only do I think that would end up being really depressing, but it would totally kill the basis of the show. At the end of the day, Pokémon is a positive show that's geared towards kids. Journeys actually really does have a pretty good tone to it, but that also doesn't mean Ash can't struggle from time to time in a way that is taken a little more seriously (like his big losing streak a while back that was taken a little more as a joke rather than something Ash actually had to work to overcome.)

I think that SM had the benefit of a large cast of human and Pokémon characters getting allot of consistent screen time. Like XY I have only seen parts of SM but I do believe that outside of Ash's growing appreciation for the region and his new family, he was more the POV character that others issues were explored through (Correct me if I am wrong). Outside of Ash, Pikachu and Goh, other characters and Pokémon do not get allot of screen time. Ash's pokemon have been caught evolved or with little character drama, that means that Ash's serious character moments usually involve Goh, as he is the one that Ash helps through experience. The flute cup, goodbye Raboot, and Sobble first battle were all moments that I thought we got to see a more mature side to Ash.

Spoiler: Small

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I think we shouldn't be asking for less Go in Ash episodes, and instead ask for more Ash in Go episodes.

Electabuzz/ Heracross type battle inserts are what I have been hoping for, however, they seem even more unlikely going into the hyper class.

Spoiler: Small

I'm really not sure if they'd bother to devote more focus to the PWC when the vast majority of Ash's progress has been done off-screen. That doesn't give me the impression that they're going to give more focus to it now that the Hyper Class is going to be full of a smaller group of advanced trainers compared to the lower classes.

While I don't think that the PWC episode density will increase, we still haven't seen the majority of the Galar gym leaders and have had few returning ones (I still think we are getting a Lt. Surge rematch). I think most returning characters will be one off victories for Ash and that hyper class matches will continue the trend of being single episode affairs.

I think Ash clearing the NC easily makes sense given his experience, though I also think Visquez should have been portrayed as more of an oddity amongst the NC, given how she stacks up to some of his later opponents.

While I don't think off screen wins were a good idea, I think the majority of notable characters was saved for the top 100 because they will only appear once and the writers felt they shouldn't rank under random trainers even if they are ranking up. It doesn't help the SC but it does preserve the characters images.

Adding more structure regarding rules for matches with 1 or 2 pokemon, and not offscreening victories could have made the PWC feel more officious and improved the SC for me.

I am still looking forward to the HC though, even if we continue with the limited battle format, having new characters to bounce off of will be nice, and if Ash doesn't capture another pokemon for a while we may see more of his current members.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

While there were deep moments in SM, I do believe that the majority of characters still acted more comedically in other episodes. I don't know how dense the concentration of mature episodes was in SM but I think it likely benefitted from the large cast size and game character plotlines (at least for Lily's family).

I don’t see how that changes things. Ash could easily get deep moments via conflict due to the increased stakes in PWC while not overshadowing the entire series with "deep" things. Sun/Moon did it well and with slight tonal changes JN could cover it without alienating children.

Outside of Ash, Pikachu and Goh, other characters and Pokémon do not get allot of screen time. Ash's pokemon have been caught evolved or with little character drama, that means that Ash's serious character moments usually involve Goh, as he is the one that Ash helps through experience. The flute cup, goodbye Raboot, and Sobble first battle were all moments that I thought we got to see a more mature side to Ash.

Raboot and Sobble were steps in the correct direction, I’ll agree. But it’s inability to handle proper drama and arcs for Ash's Pokemon is basically a self imposed handicap which impacts it in more ways than one as shown here.

I'd prefer if all matches going forward from here were at least two Pokemon minimum (and for the love of god, don’t let Pikachu take one of the slots unless they need it for some unique strategies).

 

[Sobblelelle]

I don’t see how that changes things. Ash could easily get deep moments via conflict due to the increased stakes in PWC while not overshadowing the entire series with "deep" things. Sun/Moon did it well and with slight tonal changes JN could cover it without alienating children.

Raboot and Sobble were steps in the correct direction, I’ll agree. But it’s inability to handle proper drama and arcs for Ash's Pokemon is basically a self imposed handicap which impacts it in more ways than one as shown here.

I'd prefer if all matches going forward from here were at least two Pokemon minimum (and for the love of god, don’t let Pikachu take one of the slots unless they need it for some unique strategies).

While there could have been more drama with Ash's Pokémon if they weren't fully evolved/ already very competent, we could still see them face roadblocks that challenge them beyond their ability to punch harder. I suppose the Iris and maybe Gary battles might give us an idea about how Ash and his Pokémon will develop going forward.

 

[Enzo]

An brazilian Pokétuber tweeted this today, and it does make me think...

''Pokémon Journeys is a series that wants to revisit the past but seems to be afraid of said past."

Some comments were also interesting, and one pointed out that, ever since BW/XY, they seem to want to show some stuff that happened in the past in the quickiest way possible. Like they have to carefully plan any sort of reference, no matter how minor like 2 years prior. You don't really see that in the past series tho. Idk, it seemed that throught OS-AG-DP they were more deliberated with those. Huh.

And there was yet another reply that is also some food for thought.

''Pokémon as a whole has that problem. I think that, in their minds, revisiting the past implies that some time did passed, which in turn backs them up in a corner even more when it comes to not having an explanation of why Ash doesn't grows in every sense of the word."

Thoughts?

 

[Daren]

Even if the Hyper Class doesn't get similar treatment, putting the first two classes on the back burner practically was a terrible idea.

I agree; I'm just guessing about possible whys rather than trying to defend it. I find when I disagree with a decision and the reasoning isn't given it's easier for me to put it into perspecive if I put some thought into possible motives.

Kanto - Ritchie (But they can potentially bring back Orange Islands Drake back as well).

Getting an Orange Islands episode or character would be great.

''Pokémon Journeys is a series that wants to revisit the past but seems to be afraid of said past."

An interesting idea. It's a bit early for me to fully agree or disagree but I certainly see where they come from. I sort of think the show has had issues with wanting to do certain things but being unwilling to fully commit in the past as well (XY for instance, where they really wanted to portray Ash as a great trainer but didn't let him actually accomplish anything noteworthy as a trainer).

You don't really see that in the past series tho. Idk, it seemed that throught OS-AG-DP they were more deliberated with those. Huh.

The end of DP was more or less the end of Ash's continuing storyline (another reason Tobias is so awful). I don't mean in the "litterally a different canon" way you sometimes see, but after that point he became inconsistent and the series' became increasingly self-contained to the point it's hard to believe it's the same character.

 

[Enzo]

An interesting idea. It's a bit early for me to fully agree or disagree but I certainly see where they come from. I sort of think the show has had issues with wanting to do certain things but being unwilling to fully commit in the past as well (XY for instance, where they really wanted to portray Ash as a great trainer but didn't let him actually accomplish anything noteworthy as a trainer).


The end of DP was more or less the end of Ash's continuing storyline (another reason Tobias is so awful). I don't mean in the "litterally a different canon" way you sometimes see, but after that point he became inconsistent and the series' became increasingly self-contained to the point it's hard to believe it's the same character.

I think yesterday's episode is a good example of that:

(I mean, nothing happened, but spoiler alert I guess?)

Spoiler

That ep literally featured a guy who has a lot of Tauros. And another guy who also had one. And Ash also seems excited when they mentioned that the guys in question had some Tauros.

But they just,,, go nowhere with that. I get that it wouldn't had changed nothing to the ep's plot, but it wouldn't kill for them to have Ash mentioning that he has 30 Tauros, and maybe even an flashback, even if it was only an still picture.

Or now that you mentioned XY: They make no mention of it in SM, and even tho we literally went back to Kalos in the Koriina episode in JN, there's no mention of Clemont, Serena nor Bonnie. No flashbacks, no mentions of what happened with Team Flare, specially since both Ash and Korrina were fighting Lysander together, nada. Zero.

Or how the fact that Ash won an league in Alola was also not brought up ever since, how Ash promised to have an battle with Kiawe when they met again, which could be an PWC match (the opportunity and excuse was RIGHT THERE), but Goh of all people battled him while Ash was in the sidelines...

It's so weird, cuz it seems like REALLY wanna profit off nostalgia and fanservice, but they don't do anything when it comes to mentioning the past events or anything like that. Just like how we don't have any mention of anything that happened in Sinnoh, in Hoenn, in Alola, we literally will be getting the first BW flashback after the series ended almost 8 years ago, it's weird to say the least.

 

[nickdt]

I think yesterday's episode is a good example of that:

(I mean, nothing happened, but spoiler alert I guess?)

Spoiler

That ep literally featured a guy who has a lot of Tauros. And another guy who also had one. And Ash also seems excited when they mentioned that the guys in question had some Tauros.

But they just,,, go nowhere with that. I get that it wouldn't had changed nothing to the ep's plot, but it wouldn't kill for them to have Ash mentioning that he has 30 Tauros, and maybe even an flashback, even if it was only an still picture.

Or now that you mentioned XY: They make no mention of it in SM, and even tho we literally went back to Kalos in the Koriina episode in JN, there's no mention of Clemont, Serena nor Bonnie. No flashbacks, no mentions of what happened with Team Flare, specially since both Ash and Korrina were fighting Lysander together, nada. Zero.

Or how the fact that Ash won an league in Alola was also not brought up ever since, how Ash promised to have an battle with Kiawe when they met again, which could be an PWC match (the opportunity and excuse was RIGHT THERE), but Goh of all people battled him while Ash was in the sidelines...

It's so weird, cuz it seems like REALLY wanna profit off nostalgia and fanservice, but they don't do anything when it comes to mentioning the past events or anything like that. Just like how we don't have any mention of anything that happened in Sinnoh, in Hoenn, in Alola, we literally will be getting the first BW flashback after the series ended almost 8 years ago, it's weird to say the least.

Yeah and then do to show Bayleef vs Chucks Poliwrath of all the references.

No mention of Dawns Piplup either.

 

[Hidden Mew]

@Hidden Mew a question. a lot of your posts constantly dump on the concept of PWC and yet when there's a chance that it'll improve, you look down on that chance or hope and be so pessimistic.

it's like you want the PWC to be a failure, and by extension, Ash's progression?

I don't know how many posts I've made about the PWC, but regardless, claiming that I want the PWC and Ash's progression to be a failure is a pretty huge assumption to make. It also seems rather harsh to say that I look down on that chance for improvement and that I'm being so pessimistic when I'm just disagreeing with other people. I don't think there's a need to exaggerate my opinion like that or make it sound worse than it actually is.

I don't want the PWC to be a failure, but personally speaking, it's just hard for me to see it improve at this rate. The bulk of Ash's on-screen matches being one-on-one and then making Ash progress so much off-sceen on top if it doesn't make the idea of the Hyper Class being on center stage, bringing in reps from eight different generations or using his reserves sound that plausible to me. All of the problems I've had with the PWC just really weaken my investment in the goal to the point where I kind of don't care about it at the moment. Why should I when the bulk of Ash's progress in the tournament thus far have been deemed unimportant enough to where it was done off screen or how a lot of his matches were just footnotes in an episode instead of being the main focus? I'm not saying that it's impossible for it to improve or that people are wrong to hope for the Hyper Class to be handled better. I'd like to see more good battles for Ash, to see him catch/train more Pokemon, to actually see his progress so that I could be excited for his goal and for them to bring in more established characters for Ash to battle instead of one-shot trainers, but I just don't see it happening at this rate.

The concept of the PWC isn't the problem, but rather the execution. It should be considered a big deal since it is Ash's goal for the series and it is a chance for them to make use of different characters throughout the franchise's history, but it really doesn't come off as a major stepping stone for Ash considering how often it is put to the side. The lack of good battles that I've seen at least probably doesn't help matters either. I really liked the Korrina battle and if that was more typical for PWC matches instead of the first one I saw that I thought was good, I'd probably be more invested in it. The Bea battle was good, but it ultimately just made me wish that Ash was going to the Galar Gym Challenge instead of taking part in what mostly feels like Random Encounters: The Tournament to me.

 

[Silktree]

I thought that Ash has only battled against three Gym Leaders up to this point. Including the rematch with Bea, I think that's only four battles against Gym Leaders. What is the fifth battle you're referring to?

Iris. They're battling in the Opelucid gym, so even if she isn't a gym leader yet, she may as well be one.

Visquez, Korrina, Bea (x2), Iris

Even in the Master Class battles we've seen thus far, they're still one-on-one matches. As much as I'd like to see them have three-on-three matches, if only because the matches would ideally be longer and the main focus of an episode, I don't think that they're going to do that. I'm really not sure if they'd bother to devote more focus to the PWC when the vast majority of Ash's progress has been done off-screen. That doesn't give me the impression that they're going to give more focus to it now that the Hyper Class is going to be full of a smaller group of advanced trainers compared to the lower classes.

The Master 8 battles we've seen didn't involve Ash, so it would have been pretty weird if they'd given them a lot of focus. Since all the gym battles have been 2vs2 so far, I think 3vs is a reasonable expectation for the Hyper Class. I certainly don't expect the Ash vs. Leon battle to be 1vs1.

If it had been up to me, the gym battles would have been 3vs3 and we would have gotten Janine and Sabrina instead of Visquez and Korrina. But it was always clear that the league-level battles were being saved for the Hyper Class, so the complaints are unwarranted in my eyes. Do you really think that the writers are going to make it easy for Ash to be crowned as one of the 8 strongest trainers in the world? It may have been pretty easy for him to make it to rank 184, but hey, we already knew that someone with his experience was worthy of that much. Now he needs to prove that he hasn't reached his limits.

I also can't see them bringing back his reserves. I'm not against it. It would be cool to see Ash's older Pokemon, especially fan favorites or ones that desperately need more attention, but I don't see it happening. It would just make me wonder what was the point of giving him strong Pokemon like Dragonite and Gengar right off the bat if they were eventually just going to bring in his reserves for the higher classes.

1. Dragonite, Gengar and Lucario are very popular. That alone explains their captures.
2. They need to spice things up in the next 2.5 years. Some fans want more captures, but I think that's silly given the stakes (and the ideal time for increased Galar promotion was last year, not now let alone the future).
3. I can't think of a reason to bring back old characters while neglecting reserves. In particular, having Ash use Charizard against Gary would have more impact than, say, Lucario.
4. Dracovish is being treated as a reserve rather than a staple (see the opening). There should be a good reason for that.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

In particular, having Ash use Charizard against Gary would have more impact than, say, Lucario.

Meh, that’s a rehash of an old battle. It makes no sense since Charizard won anyways. And by the time Gary arrives they’ll be knee deep in SInnoh promotion. Someone like Quilava is ideal for return.

 

[GrookeyFan77]

Meh, that’s a rehash of an old battle.

Gigantamax

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Gigantamax

I don’t trust this series to have Gary reunite with Ash in Galar. It’s either Pallet town or Vermillion.

 

[GrookeyFan77]

I don’t trust this series to have Gary reunite with Ash in Galar. It’s either Pallet town or Vermillion.

Showcasing G-Max Turtle

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Showcasing G-Max Turtle

I know exactly what you meant and I still believe Gary will not appear in Galar.

 

[GrookeyFan77]

I know exactly what you meant and I still believe Gary will not appear in Galar.

Your argument does make sense but then how will they showcase it?

 

[Hidden Mew]

Iris. They're battling in the Opelucid gym, so even if she isn't a gym leader yet, she may as well be one.

I didn't factor in Iris at the time, but that does make sense. It might be a bit early to assume that she's a Gym Leader now, but it isn't an unreasonable assumption by any means.

The Master 8 battles we've seen didn't involve Ash, so it would have been pretty weird if they'd given them a lot of focus. If all the gym battles have been 2vs2 so far, I think 3vs is a reasonable expectation for the Hyper Class. I certainly don't expect the Ash vs. Leon battle to be 1vs1.

Even though they didn't involve Ash, the fact that they're still one-on-one doesn't make me think that we're going to get three-on-three Gym battles for the Hyper Class. If Journeys didn't have such a fast pace and they didn't breeze through a huge chuck of the PWC already, then maybe that assumption would make more sense to me. Honestly, I kind of would expect Ash vs. Leon to be one-on-one, or at least it wouldn't surprise me given how most the PWC has been handled and it would come down to two popular/iconic Pokemon.

1. Dragonite, Gengar and Lucario are very popular. That alone explains their captures.

I know that they're all very popular Pokemon and that's basically why Ash got them. I just don't see why they'd bring in reserves when they already gave Ash powerful Pokemon. That's why the decision would feel more questionable to me. They already gave Ash some fully evolved Pokemon seemingly just so that he could have some powerhouses sooner rather than later for the PWC, so then relying more on his reserves instead of his new Pokemon seems kind of like a waste to me.

2. They need to spice things up in the next 2.5 years. Some fans want more captures, but I think that's silly given the stakes (and the ideal time for increased Galar promotion was last year, not now let alone the future).

I still think that's a pretty big assumption about how long Journeys will last. It's not impossible or unreasonable to assume there are over two more years left for a few reasons, but I don't think I'd bet on that at the moment. Honestly, I'd prefer to see more Galar captures instead of bringing back reserves. I'd want to see more Galar Pokemon in the anime and actually getting to see Ash train his new Pokemon as opposed to rely on his older Pokemon or giving him more fully evolved Pokemon would potentially give him more to do. Since Journeys is handling new generation promotion differently than previous series, they could still promote more new Pokemon in the future. It took them over a year to introduce all three Galar starters, so while it isn't a priority, I don't see them ignoring the new generation going forward completely either. Or at least I hope that they don't since not even getting to see most of the new Pokemon in Journeys has been incredibly disappointing for me and I'm sure a lot of other fans who like the Galar Pokemon.

3. I can't think of a reason to bring back old characters while neglecting reserves. In particular, having Ash use Charizard against Gary would have more impact than, say, Lucario.

The fact that Ash has been relying on his current teams since BW instead of bringing back reserves doesn't make me think that they'll suddenly change their minds, even with bringing back older characters. I don't see how using Charizard against Gary would be more impactful per say. Assuming that Gary is going to use Blastoise, it would be two iconic starters going up against each other and be a callback to their Johto League match, but I don't see why they'd do that when Ash can just use Dragonite or Lucario against Blastoise instead.

 

[Daren]

I know he's the last character that needs more time but Pikachu never won vs Gary. I could see that finally changing this time.
(I'd prefer the match with Gary is at least three on three instead of one on one but I'm expecting the latter).

 

[GrookeyFan77]

Gary match prediction (no reserve):
Grookey (Betrays Goh and joins Ash) vs Scizor (Grookey wins)
Grookey vs Golem (Grookey wins)
Grookey vs Blastoise (Grookey wins)