Pokemon Journeys: Thoughts So Far

[swiftgallade46]

Spoiler

Sorry, I didn't elaborate properly. I mean that characters only do such as the plot demands it. Take episode 30 for example, Ash and Pikachu were both acting as such in that episode because the plot demanded it. Again, the anime's always been doing this, but it's especially prominent in Journeys with the odd plot/episodic style mix which just makes it more noticeable. Another example-not in Journeys-of the anime doing this is in Kalos, when Ash lost the league he just seemed...accepting? People claimed this as character development, but he was acting far too passive for someone who was literally ONE MOVE away from winning a league. Maturity in that situation would be him being upset but acknowledging that he would do better, maybe show him opening up more-that would've shown he learned from the Snowbelle gym and that he should go to his friends for comfort instead of brushing them off. We have literally no clue how Ash really felt about the Kalos league loss because the plot was just like "sorry but u have to fight team flare now lol".
Again, the anime has always been doing this-forcing the characters in situations where they are forced to act as plot devices instead of putting them in a situation where they have to showcase their actual character, not act in some forced manner for plot purposes. Honestly, I've mostly seen this happen in filler episodes, but sometimes it's just random as hell(take the infamous Elesa gym battle).

I don’t disagree, but this seems to be an issue with the anime in general rather than just JN. It’s always been this mix of plot-driven and episodic which sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

I don’t disagree, but this seems to be an issue with the anime in general rather than just JN. It’s always been this mix of plot-driven and episodic which sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t.

I concede. I think if I debate over this matter any longer, I'll start to use less reasoning and start to sound more biased rather than looking at it from both sides properly.

I don't hate Journeys, though this is mostly due to my aversion of the word "hate" if anything else. Journeys just has so much potential-more so than any other series before it-that it's rather upsetting most of it has gone to waste.

 

[Islander Princess]

That Ash comment is really interesting, and not necessarily in a good way.

I will say, though...I don’t like that they’re using his character flaws as a creative decision to help leave room for him to grow. I’d rather they either a) just let him continue to mature or b) increase the difficulty/stakes of his challenges. But that’s just me personally.

This is pretty much the exact feeling I had when I saw that translation. There are so many other ways they can have Ash continue to grow instead of just repeatedly cashing in on the same flaws. Think about actual humans: I honestly don't ever think we stop growing. Even when someone reaches ultimate success, it's unrealistic to assume there's nothing else for that person to learn. So the fact that they fall back on Ash's (who is still, by all accounts, a child) character flaws, rather than giving him new challenges, is pretty weak.

The PWC was really the perfect excuse to do this. It's clearly supposed to be a major tournament, a much bigger stage than just taking on gyms. The PWC could have come with challenges that were unique to the challenges that come with gym battles. And I think for me, that's one of the most frustrating aspects of Journeys: it has such good bones, and really great potential, but it just feels like things keep getting left on the table.

like one simple way to take Ash forward would be to step up the big leagues (like with the PWC itself). for example, show Ash dealing with fame and media pressure on being a 'second coming of Leon' or something like that.

Like this!!! This is something that's always interested me. It's actually one of my favorite themes that tends to come up a lot in fanfics. And they said it themselves: Ash is a very straightforward person. He always wears his heart on his sleeve and is naturally someone you want to root for. The opportunity to watch him have to deal with those aspects, almost like the "other side" of being a Pokémon trainer, would not only be really interesting, but would also be a great way to continue developing Ash beyond what we've already seen.

I keep hoping that maybe as Ash gets closer to taking on Leon, the PWC will take this kind of turn. But at this point, I don't actually see it happening.

 

[Sobblelelle]

That Ash comment is really interesting, and not necessarily in a good way.



This is pretty much the exact feeling I had when I saw that translation. There are so many other ways they can have Ash continue to grow instead of just repeatedly cashing in on the same flaws. Think about actual humans: I honestly don't ever think we stop growing. Even when someone reaches ultimate success, it's unrealistic to assume there's nothing else for that person to learn. So the fact that they fall back on Ash's (who is still, by all accounts, a child) character flaws, rather than giving him new challenges, is pretty weak.

The PWC was really the perfect excuse to do this. It's clearly supposed to be a major tournament, a much bigger stage than just taking on gyms. The PWC could have come with challenges that were unique to the challenges that come with gym battles. And I think for me, that's one of the most frustrating aspects of Journeys: it has such good bones, and really great potential, but it just feels like things keep getting left on the table.



Like this!!! This is something that's always interested me. It's actually one of my favorite themes that tends to come up a lot in fanfics. And they said it themselves: Ash is a very straightforward person. He always wears his heart on his sleeve and is naturally someone you want to root for. The opportunity to watch him have to deal with those aspects, almost like the "other side" of being a Pokémon trainer, would not only be really interesting, but would also be a great way to continue developing Ash beyond what we've already seen.

I keep hoping that maybe as Ash gets closer to taking on Leon, the PWC will take this kind of turn. But at this point, I don't actually see it happening.

I think they do a pretty good job keeping Ash serious when the plot calls for it, and we did have a 'second coming of Leon' moment with Rose trying to recruit him and Ash turning down the offer, showing how he and Leon's outlooks differ. Some of these plot ideas would be difficult if not impossible to explore within the shows episodic plot structure where every episode is supposed to be a functional entry point.

Since the show is predominantly an adventure comedy, all characters have their quirks played up for comedy when stakes are lowered, and I haven't seen allot of XY, but even there where Ash is considered his most serious, he still gets involved in wacky hijinks, it's just that the plot leans more heavily on the action side of things than the comedy.

Now that we are through the introductory faze of JN and into the more competitive tiers we will likely see more of Ash's serious side, though this is still Pokemon so I expect his goofball side will still show up between the serious moments.

The plot can only get so heavy, and the introspection so deep before they are going to worry about losing their target audience. Which isn't to say that children can't follow or enjoy deep concepts, but I think that goes against the companies current accessibility model.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

The plot can only get so heavy, and the introspection so deep before they are going to worry about losing their target audience. Which isn't to say that children can't follow or enjoy deep concepts, but I think that goes against the companies current accessibility model.

I mean... it’s not like they cannot explore “deep” concepts without alienating their audience. Just look at Sun/Moon; the most comedic and “childish” (as said by others) era of the series. It still manages to have the most mature portrayal of death I’ve seen in a series like this. It wasn’t exclusive to one or two episodes either, since it cropped up quite often and was a part of a main Pokémon and companion’s arc.
It’s not that hard for Pokémon to delve into “deep” topics now and then.

The anime is a commercial for the games in essence so it’s weird to me that apparently children can understand “deep” things in the games while it needs to be dumbed down for the anime. I’m not a fan of the concept of toning down things for the fear of children not understanding it or being alienated. Children can easily relate to anxiety to do well in exams. Just compare it to the “other side” of being a trainer highlighted in @Islander Princess’s post.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I don’t disagree, but this seems to be an issue with the anime in general rather than just JN. It’s always been this mix of plot-driven and episodic which sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t.

I've been off this thread for a while. What's the debate been about?

 

[GrookeyFan77]

Goh's Grookey is perfection

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

I've been off this thread for a while. What's the debate been about?

Little late to the party, aren't ya. The debate was on the ability of the writers and writing quality in general.

Anyway, the more Journeys goes on, the more reluctant I am to actually watch the episodes, mostly because before-when everything was out of context-everything seemed super interesting. But now, when I have heavy knowledge and inferences of what's going to happen, it doesn't seem interesting anymore, and I think that's what Journeys' problem is. This feels like Kalos League 2.0: The Series, to be honest; everything is super hyped when you don't know anything, but when you see the actual execution...uhhh....yeah.

(The only case I can think of where everything seemed more interesting than was hyped-for me-was the first two-three episodes of the Sword and Shield arc-for some reason, not many people liked that arc...?, so I went in watching with low expectations, and actually ended up liking it a lot!)

 

[Kurolegacy]

The anime is a commercial for the games in essence so it’s weird to me that apparently children can understand “deep” things in the games while it needs to be dumbed down for the anime. I’m not a fan of the concept of toning down things for the fear of children not understanding it or being alienated. Children can easily relate to anxiety to do well in exams. Just compare it to the “other side” of being a trainer highlighted in @Islander Princess’s post.

Yea that has always struck me as odd considering that both the games and anime have the same target audience. Like sure, most anime have their portion of comedy even if they are action but why does the literal advertisement for the games dumb things down and make it partially a comedy. It feels like it gives the wrong impression of the series at that point.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Yea that has always struck me as odd considering that both the games and anime have the same target audience. Like sure, most anime have their portion of comedy even if they are action but why does the literal advertisement for the games dumb things down and make it partially a comedy. It feels like it gives the wrong impression of the series at that point.

They used to not do that, though. OS practically had zero filters in what they brought out, and that was back when the adventures and comedy was even crazier and whacker than it is now.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Little late to the party, aren't ya. The debate was on the ability of the writers and writing quality in general.

@swiftgallade46 Was there more to the debate besides that?

 

[Islander Princess]

Now that we are through the introductory faze of JN and into the more competitive tiers we will likely see more of Ash's serious side, though this is still Pokemon so I expect his goofball side will still show up between the serious moments.

The plot can only get so heavy, and the introspection so deep before they are going to worry about losing their target audience. Which isn't to say that children can't follow or enjoy deep concepts, but I think that goes against the companies current accessibility model.

This might sound a little contradictory, which means I probably didn't fully explain my feelings in my initial post: I don't actually like when things get too serious. That's actually one of my major reasons for disliking XY as a series: it felt like a lot of the anime's usual lightheartedness got sucked out of it. I have absolutely no problem with the anime itself being mostly happy and fun, and it's actually one of the things that I do appreciate about Journeys.

I think SM is probably the best example for how I'd like to see Journeys' tone. SM, overall, was a very joyful series. Most of the time, the characters were having fun, they acted goofy, and there was a good amount of humor. But there were also episodes that dealt with more serious subject matter, including death, and it was handled very well and respectfully without feeling too dark or heavy.

I'm definitely not looking for a hardcore, grittier take on the world of Pokémon. Not only do I think that would end up being really depressing, but it would totally kill the basis of the show. At the end of the day, Pokémon is a positive show that's geared towards kids. Journeys actually really does have a pretty good tone to it, but that also doesn't mean Ash can't struggle from time to time in a way that is taken a little more seriously (like his big losing streak a while back that was taken a little more as a joke rather than something Ash actually had to work to overcome.)

 

[Kurolegacy]

This might sound a little contradictory, which means I probably didn't fully explain my feelings in my initial post: I don't actually like when things get too serious. That's actually one of my major reasons for disliking XY as a series: it felt like a lot of the anime's usual lightheartedness got sucked out of it. I have absolutely no problem with the anime itself being mostly happy and fun, and it's actually one of the things that I do appreciate about Journeys.

I think SM is probably the best example for how I'd like to see Journeys' tone. SM, overall, was a very joyful series. Most of the time, the characters were having fun, they acted goofy, and there was a good amount of humor. But there were also episodes that dealt with more serious subject matter, including death, and it was handled very well and respectfully without feeling too dark or heavy.

I'm definitely not looking for a hardcore, grittier take on the world of Pokémon. Not only do I think that would end up being really depressing, but it would totally kill the basis of the show. At the end of the day, Pokémon is a positive show that's geared towards kids. Journeys actually really does have a pretty good tone to it, but that also doesn't mean Ash can't struggle from time to time in a way that is taken a little more seriously (like his big losing streak a while back that was taken a little more as a joke rather than something Ash actually had to work to overcome.)

Personally speaking, while there are some great things that Journeys most certainly should take from SM , the overall tone isn’t one of them. If XY represented the series skewing too far into serious for some, I find that SM screwed a bit too far in the opposite direction into too carefree sans when they tackled serious topics or had a plot going on. I’d personally rather the type of balance between the light and serious that we got from Johto to DP. I feel that that tone made the series feel more rounded without drastically shifting in one direction or the other.

 

[Islander Princess]

Personally speaking, while there are some great things that Journeys most certainly should take from SM , the overall tone isn’t one of them. If XY represented the series skewing too far into serious for some, I find that SM screwed a bit too far in the opposite direction into too carefree sans when they tackled serious topics or had a plot going on. I’d personally rather the type of balance between the light and serious that we got from Johto to DP. I feel that that tone made the series feel more rounded without drastically shifting in one direction or the other.

I can understand why some people felt that SM was too goofy at times, because there were definitely some episodes that were pretty out there (although, some Journeys episodes, particularly the two parters that have become pretty prevalent, I find to be even goofier), I guess I just meant I was looking for more of that balance between lightheartedness and slightly more serious subject matter.

While I do appreciate Journeys' lighter take (since that's what I appreciate about Pokémon as a whole) I do want to see more of a mix. XY felt a little too serious to some people, and SM felt a little too silly for some people. It'd be cool if Journeys was able to strike that balance between the two, and truthfully, there is still time to do that. Whether or not that will actually happen, however, I'm not so sure.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Johto to DP really did have the perfect balance of goofy to silly, though I personally enjoyed the more serious shonen-esque nature of XY. SuMo was a bit too goofy for me at times, but it still had its charm. Journeys tends to surpass how goofy SuMo was at times, especially when it comes to those horrible two parter episodes.

 

[Vulpes Incarnatus]

i really hope the rank climb slows down a lot, there are only 90 other opponents in the Hyper class which means more traveling needed to find opponents and difficulty and length of battles increasing

even if Ash ranks up 5-6 points per win, it still comes to 15 high octane battles before Master class

 

[KyseL]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I think we shouldn't be asking for less Go in Ash episodes, and instead ask for more Ash in Go episodes.

i really hope the rank climb slows down a lot, there are only 90 other opponents in the Hyper class which means more traveling needed to find opponents and difficulty and length of battles increasing

even if Ash ranks up 5-6 points per win, it still comes to 15 high octane battles before Master class

I think that's almost a given, plus I seriously doubt Ash will go undefeated into Master Class (IF he makes it to Master Class). I'm not saying they can't screw this up, but unless they're forced to finish the series early, I doubt they'll keep the same pace in Hyper class as the lower ranks.

 

[GrookeyFan77]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I think we shouldn't be asking for less Go in Ash episodes, and instead ask for more Ash in Go episodes.

I agree. Give Ash PWC battles in Goh episodes like JN033.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I think we shouldn't be asking for less Go in Ash episodes, and instead ask for more Ash in Go episodes.

I’ve been asking for that since basically the series started, and that’s been an issue in some episodes to Ash's detriment. Where he ends up being a glorified background character (Zapdos episode springs out as an example). But the general reaction from what I saw often came up to be that Gou needed the episode for the plot to be unhindered.
The anime hasn’t moved in a way that gives Ash more subplots under Gou episodes, so to salvage some of Ash's development people naturally divert to episodes where Ash gets focus and expect the same exclusive treatment Gou gets in his own focus episodes.

 

[Vulpes Incarnatus]

there's no reason to not bring back Ash's older Pokemon in this series and rotate them especially when he gets to Hyper class

with previous series, excuse could be made that they were isolated to the generation's region but now there's absolutely no excuse