Legends Z-A Pokemon Legends Z-A General Speculation & Discussion

[Bolt Strike]

they could have him not be a twist villain this time around. Twist villains are overdone anyway.

The problem is that a plot gets boring if it doesn't have some kind of twist. Having a twist villain is simply the easiest way to accomplish that. If you're not going to have a twist villain, how else are you going to shake up the story?

 

[Greninjaman]

The problem is that a plot gets boring if it doesn't have some kind of twist. Having a twist villain is simply the easiest way to accomplish that. If you're not going to have a twist villain, how else are you going to shake up the story?

It wouldn't be a twist if a person who is good turns out to be evil, since we did that with Volo. If Volo did somehow show up, everyone would be expecting him to turn out to be evil like in Legends: Arceus.

 

[BeautifulSylveon]

About representation in Japan, almost never do we see a canonically autistic character in mainstream works. If there’s any autistic representation, it’s in niche manga.

Even in works that criticize society, we don’t have a canonically autistic character.

 

[Bolt Strike]

It wouldn't be a twist if a person who is good turns out to be evil, since we did that with Volo.

No, that would still be a twist. Because it would still be a marked difference in how the character is initially portrayed. If you're saying that having a good person turn out to be evil isn't a twist, well then you're omitting a large chunk of fiction because that's quite common. Again, the alternative to that is difficult to pull off.

Really Pokemon's issue isn't that they're reliant on this trope, it's that they don't execute it well. The twist villain is usually fairly predictable because even when they're first introduced they have a sinister energy to them and/or they're very mysterious and suspicious. Everyone could tell as soon as they were introduced that Colress, Lysandre, Lusamine, and Rose would be twist antagonists. There's no real surprise when they're revealed to be the antagonists because Game Freak hasn't done a good job of misleading us into thinking they're good people. I want to see a twist villain that really comes off as being good and then surprise, they're actually not. The closest example I can think of would be Es Cade in Colosseum (surprise surprise, not a game developed by Game Freak, so there might be an issue with their writing staff). He appeared very friendly and helpful in the story and promised to investigate Cipher and the hints that he was actually their leader were fairly subtle (there were a few things like Nascour visiting him at the beginning of the game, him conveniently disappearing when Cipher is inhabiting his office, and him saying he's going to investigate Cipher but actually doing nothing, but those aren't suspicious enough red flags to be that suspicious of him). So then when you reach the end of the game and find out that he was the big bad, it's pretty shocking. Similarly, Game Freak needs to do a better job at concealing any hints that a character might be secretly evil. You can see it coming a mile away, and THAT'S what really makes the twist villain trope so tired and predictable.

 

[Articfoxgamez]

No, that would still be a twist. Because it would still be a marked difference in how the character is initially portrayed. If you're saying that having a good person turn out to be evil isn't a twist, well then you're omitting a large chunk of fiction because that's quite common. Again, the alternative to that is difficult to pull off.

I think they more meant. If the twist villian of PLZA ended up being similar to volo. Semi-mysterious good guy who ends up being evil.

Also side note... Rose being evil was actually a twist i didn't expect for me. Was it an interesting one? Not really, but still, unexpected.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

The problem is that a plot gets boring if it doesn't have some kind of twist. Having a twist villain is simply the easiest way to accomplish that. If you're not going to have a twist villain, how else are you going to shake up the story?

A twist is not the only way to make a story interesting. Building anticipation towards a climax often works as well if not better. unless you'd claim that the stories of the gen 3, 4 and 5 games were boring

 

[Yung Dramps]

Everyone could tell as soon as they were introduced that Colress, Lysandre, Lusamine, and Rose would be twist antagonists.

Lusamine is 100% not intended as a twist villain. The literal first thing the game communicates to you in its intro cutscene before you even select your character's gender and skin tone is "Aether Foundation bad." The characters don't catch on right away, but we the players have all the info we need. It's not a failed attempt at a twist, it's dramatic irony coupled with the mystery of "What is Lusamine planning, and what do Cosmog and that weird alien jellyfish that just showed up have to do with it?"

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

We never see him do anything in game that would be considered evil. Yeah, he killed a Marowak, but we don't know WHEN that happened. All he really does aside from that is take over Saffron City and Silph Co and threaten the employees of the company.

He's honestly much more evil in the anime.

 

[Articfoxgamez]

Giovanni is a realistic kind of evil. He just does stuff that a real crime boss would do, mewtwo not withstanding... at least at their peak i dont... know if that happens in the modern day.

 

[Bolt Strike]

A twist is not the only way to make a story interesting. Building anticipation towards a climax often works as well if not better. unless you'd claim that the stories of the gen 3, 4 and 5 games were boring

Ehh, it's harder to make that entertaining. Part of what makes plot twists so entertaining is the unpredictability, it makes the plot more interesting if it goes in a direction you don't expect. If the plot is simply played straight you can pretty much play out the plot in your head before you actually experience it and that ruins some of the fun.

As for those specific stories, Gens 3 and 4 are considered somewhat weaker and there were still plot twists in Platinum, BW, and BW2. Platinum had Giratina interrupt the final showdown with Team Galactic and you face off against Cyrus and Giratina in the Distortion World, BW had a double plot twist confusing you on who between Ghetsis and N was the true leader of Team Plasma, and BW2 had a late game plot twist where Colress was the "leader" of the new Team Plasma (although it was later revealed that Ghetsis was pulling the strings again) and that they had already captured Kyurem.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

Ehh, it's harder to make that entertaining. Part of what makes plot twists so entertaining is the unpredictability, it makes the plot more interesting if it goes in a direction you don't expect. If the plot is simply played straight you can pretty much play out the plot in your head before you actually experience it and that ruins some of the fun.

As for those specific stories, Gens 3 and 4 are considered somewhat weaker and there were still plot twists in Platinum, BW, and BW2. Platinum had Giratina interrupt the final showdown with Team Galactic and you face off against Cyrus and Giratina in the Distortion World, BW had a double plot twist confusing you on who between Ghetsis and N was the true leader of Team Plasma, and BW2 had a late game plot twist where Colress was the "leader" of the new Team Plasma (although it was later revealed that Ghetsis was pulling the strings again) and that they had already captured Kyurem.

the thing is, the unpredictability is only there during your first playthrough. Nowadays, when i replay Sword and Shield, the story is just boring with no tension. The story isn't building towards anything meaningful.

The Giratina twist worked because we were still building towards a confrontation with the main villain. There was all the buildup towards the events at Spear Pillar, just like in the original DP. As for the twist in BW, that hurt the game way more than it helped. We had this clash of ideals that was built up throughout the game come to a climax in N's castle, only to be undercut by Ghetsis revealing he was manipulating N all along.

as for BW2, i'll be honest and admit i've forgotten 90% of the story. Game came out when i was too old to feel nostalgia for it, nor does it have generational gimmicks to set it apart like gen 6 on. so i never revisit it.

 

[BorealRookidee]

About representation in Japan, almost never do we see a canonically autistic character in mainstream works. If there’s any autistic representation, it’s in niche manga.

Even in works that criticize society, we don’t have a canonically autistic character.

Yeah, but there's not much reason to canonize an autistic character as long as headcanons exist tbh. Telling an audience the character is autistic doesn't really add much tbh. I'm saying this as an autistic person myself to be clear.

And I do fully believe that at least one Pokemon character was intentionally written to be autistic, even though it has never been confirmed in canon (Nemona).

 

[Bolt Strike]

the thing is, the unpredictability is only there during your first playthrough. Nowadays, when i replay Sword and Shield, the story is just boring with no tension. The story isn't building towards anything meaningful.

Right, so replays are naturally going to make the story less fun. The only fun people generally have with the story in replaying a game is when they can choose a different storyline path if one exists or if they manage to pick up on details that they may have missed on their first playthrough.

As for the twist in BW, that hurt the game way more than it helped. We had this clash of ideals that was built up throughout the game come to a climax in N's castle, only to be undercut by Ghetsis revealing he was manipulating N all along.

I'm not sure I agree that it was an "undercut" since we still got an epic confrontation with N at the end of the story and he still stands by his beliefs even after being defeated (he's just more amenable to working together with those he disagrees with). Meanwhile you still haven't stopped the threat Team Plasma posed until you defeat Ghetsis.

 

[Jon Watercooler]

I think we're severly underestimating the amount of things that can make a story fun. Characters? How the story is told? Exciting Action?

 

[adr1504]

While villains in the games are sort of a must, the real dealbreakers are both story pacing and characterization. That's why Diamond and Pearl's plot end up in a weird place when compared to Platinum's storyline, which fleshed out and added more substance to the storyline, and, the most important, made it coherent.

You can have a lame plot saved by cool characters, or a badass plot marred by cardboard characters. But if you don't have proper pacing, plot and characters, you end up with a pile of hot, steaming garbage.

Plot twists are literary tropes, and as such, can be abused, overdone, cringe and whatnot, but proper executions indeed do favors to the plot line and spice things up. Which I'll explain with the following.

As for the twist in BW, that hurt the game way more than it helped. We had this clash of ideals that was built up throughout the game come to a climax in N's castle, only to be undercut by Ghetsis revealing he was manipulating N all along

Honestly, I think otherwise, Ghetsis exposing himself as the puppet master added an extra layer of urgency, why? Because it presented Team Plasma as a bigger threat than expected, the clash of ideals was genuine, since N stands by them without hesitation, even on the sequels, but this revelation fleshed out Ghetsis as the ruthless, manipulative SOAB we know and love to hate. He's a really despicable bastard, without a single redeeming trait, evil incarnate.

Of all the villain teams, Ghetsis and Giovanni stand out as truly evil, Giovanni, honoring his mafia don characterization, is a career criminal doing all sorts of illegal ventures, while Ghetsis is a manipulative, scheming and power hungry individual without contemplation for others, which is seen in him almost murdering B2W2's protagonist.

 

[Greninjaman]

Do we know when the next trailer will be?

 

[Articfoxgamez]

Do we know when the next trailer will be?

Kinda, kinda not.
Pokemon trailers start happening about 6 months before release (Pokemon day aside), so following that august is the earliest we can start seeing trailers.
However if its late 2025, then next trailer would be earlier than 6 months, being at next years Pokemon day
And then of course, if the switch 2 launch title theory ends up being true, we might get a trailer for the game whenever that console is announced (I think the popular belief is June or July?)

 

[adr1504]

And then of course, if the switch 2 launch title theory ends up being true, we might get a trailer for the game whenever that console is announced (I think the popular belief is June or July?)

Honestly, I doubt ZA will be a Switch 2 launch title since well, this was stated previously but would be nice reminding a little bit, but GF isn't known for being an early adopter of new hardware.

Tinfoil hat time, my headcanon says that Gen X will be the Switch 2 games with a 2026 release date as a tie-in with the 30th anniversary of the series, leaving PLZA as a side gig meant to buy time and gear up the Gen X games, also as a farewell to the Switch as a whole.

But who knows, if they pulled this new game out of nowhere then they're perfectly capable of surprising us again. Which I commend, Game Freak's opsec was on point, no freaking leaker saw that coming.

 

[Articfoxgamez]

They have switched things up before. Plus, this is the first time (Mainline) Pokemon has been on one of nintendos home consoles, and Pokemon makes up... 5 of the top 15 best selling switch games, so Nintendo would even have reason to try and get Gamefreak to make a launch title for their system. (Granted this was also mostly true for the 3ds and that didn't mean much but.)
I'm not too hard in beliving it but I wouldn't rule it out either.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Honestly, I doubt ZA will be a Switch 2 launch title since well, this was stated previously but would be nice reminding a little bit, but GF isn't known for being an early adopter of new hardware.

Tinfoil hat time, my headcanon says that Gen X will be the Switch 2 games with a 2026 release date as a tie-in with the 30th anniversary of the series, leaving PLZA as a side gig meant to buy time and gear up the Gen X games, also as a farewell to the Switch as a whole.

But who knows, if they pulled this new game out of nowhere then they're perfectly capable of surprising us again. Which I commend, Game Freak's opsec was on point, no freaking leaker saw that coming.

Game Freak is also not known for sticking to established patterns, they like to switch things up and surprise people. They've broken a lot of release trends in the past, they could do so again. There are reasons why it might make sense for Game Freak to break this rule and get on the Switch 2 early:

• Some of the best selling games on the Switch launched earlier, being part of that incredible Year 1 lineup seems to have really benefitted some of the those games like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and BotW which just continued to sell year after year. Game Freak may want to get in on that this time.
• Having Pokemon earlier may help get more people to buy the Switch 2, Pokemon is one of Nintendo's biggest exclusives.
• The Switch 2 is expected to be largely similar to the OG Switch, so making the jump to new hardware should be one of the least difficult hardware transitions.