Pokemon SM is NOT continuation of XY(&Z)

[CrystaI]

Did you even watch the first two episodes of Sun and Moon? ASH MENTIONS HIS TAUROS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. The flashbacks shows Ash dropping off FIVE POKEBALLS at Oak's before going with his mother for Alola.

Episode 1 of SM had more continuity than the whole of XY and people have the decency to call THIS series a reboot? Yeah no.

I would appreciate if you did not spread what is most likely a mistranslation because fans are looking for excuses to hate on Sun and Moon already.

I saw what happened already. And unfortunately, the show is not of my taste. Other than the animation, it is more because of the overall atmosphere, and especially Ash acting too over-the-top over-reactive and over-exaggerated on the surprised facial expression, especially during the time he is not battling.

He mentioned he had caught Tauros before, and gave Prof.Oak 5 pokeballs? That can in fact happens anywhere after that Banned OS episode where he caught the 30 Tauros, during that time he already had 5 other handhelds also. So theoretically speaking SM timeline can happens anywhere after that episode, not necessarily after XY&Z, it may also happens somewhere during OS, AG, DP, BW, or whatever timeline you like to insert. Unless there exist other references, we will never know when is the exact timeline of SM.

If you do not believe in my translation, then please, go ask whoever more "authentic" than me to do it, where whatever the result came out you'll accept it without questioning any possibility of mistranslation.

 

[Silktree]

I wouldn't mind XYZ being considered non-canon.

 

[Necrozma]

He mentioned he had caught Tauros before, and gave Prof.Oak 5 pokeballs? That can in fact happens anywhere after that Banned OS episode where he caught the 30 Tauros, during that time he already had 5 other handhelds also. So theoretically speaking SM timeline can happens anywhere after that episode, not necessarily after XY&Z, it may also happens somewhere during OS, AG, DP, BW, or whatever timeline you like to insert. Unless there exist other references, we will never know when is the exact timeline of SM.

So now you have changed your mind? First you call it a spin-off with no timeline connection to other series (which is completely wrong), but now you're perfectly content with considering it a prequel to XY&Z? Whatever.

 

[Max1996]

So now you have changed your mind? First you call it a spin-off with no timeline connection to other series (which is completely wrong), but now you're perfectly content with considering it a prequel to XY&Z? Whatever.

That bit has me stumped as well. I don't think Ash and Mallow get it either...

Spoiler

 

[Jukain]

*facepalm*

Look, people are going to believe what they want to believe. No amount of official word is going to change that, regardless of the source.

 

[CrystaI]

So now you have changed your mind? First you call it a spin-off with no timeline connection to other series (which is completely wrong), but now you're perfectly content with considering it a prequel to XY&Z? Whatever.

No. I consider it as an AU scenario, a canon discontinuity. So it is like: Somewhere during the run of some previous saga, Ash is "copied" into this universe. This Alola Ash is another complete different Ash separated from the "original" Ash (Whatever version of Ash the "original" maybe. It could be OS!Ash, AG!Ash, DP!Ash, BW!Ash, XY!Ash, or something else), has his own personality where the basic skeleton may be the same but any other flesh and blood is different, and he also has his own background history drastically different from the "original" Ash, even the number of friends he had connected with is differ from the "original" Ash.

So in a sense, Ash is now no more a character, but merely an icon with basic level personality and background info that it's universal to all his "reincarnation", but anything other than that its not universal. He status situation is just like Mickey Mouse.

When the game heavily featured multiple-universe theory, it is not that difficult to understand. Shall the anime feature a Faller Ash coming from a different universe, or surprisingly, Alola Ash is a Faller, then it will really be blown away.


Though at the end of the day, it will still be an awful thing to look at it, because it ruins Pokemon Anime on the overall scale. But it does do a positive, because for the ones that dislike SM, can really dislike it for a reason and forget it completely, and for the ones that like SM, can also like it for a reason without consideration of any burden from the past.

 

[The Amazing Popplio]

I said between DP and BW. This Ash hasn't visited Unova yet.

Actually I think he has. If I'm not mistaken(I may be, I may not) I think I saw on a preview for the next episode Pikachu using electro ball which is a move he learned in bw. If these series came before bw pikachu should have known instead volt tackle or thunder. So this ash can't be one from before bw. And since xy came right after bw this ash can't be between those series either. So it has to be an Ash after xy. So the continuity exists.

 

[Cresselia92]

Besides, don't the official games imply that there are different timelines, with some of them being parallel dimensions?

Spoiler: Timeline Spoiler from Sun/Moon

In fact, it is implied, later in the games, that the original Mega-less timeline has been destroyed and there are just a few people who crossed dimensions and reached the XY/ORAS/SuMo dimension.

So who says that the anime can't follow this same logic and showcase the Ash of another timeline, which coincidentally has many things in common with the "original" Ash? Anyway, unless there is some concrete proof that this series is happening right after XY, whether it is a cameo or a specific reference, then this saga could be happening in any time slot after OS. And considering Ash's depicted behavior… it wouldn't surprise me if it happened between OS and AG, considering that AG Ash had his humorous moments but was also more "mature" and had a more dynamic personality.

 

[Necrozma]

Besides, don't the official games imply that there are different timelines, with some of them being parallel dimensions?

Going by that logic, Mega Evolution exists in a separate universe rendering the whole of XY and XY&Z series completely not canon, or should I say, taking place in a completely different universe separate from the series preceding it.

In that case, Masafumi Mima's words are true: if XY&Z is an alternate continuity, then S/M is truly not an XY&Z sequel.

Actually I think he has. If I'm not mistaken(I may be, I may not) I think I saw on a preview for the next episode Pikachu using electro ball which is a move he learned in bw. If these series came before bw pikachu should have known instead volt tackle or thunder. So this ash can't be one from before bw. And since xy came right after bw this ash can't be between those series either. So it has to be an Ash after xy. So the continuity exists.

Exactly. Pikachu knows Electro Ball which establishes SM after BW.

 

[Cresselia92]

Going by that logic, Mega Evolution exists in a separate universe rendering the whole of XY and XY&Z series completely not canon, or should I say, taking place in a completely different universe separate from the series preceding it.

Could be, could be not. Considering that the Pokémon timeline is almost as wacky as the Mario and The Legend of Zelda timelines, and as such it isn't really clear what happens when, then yes. Both XY and SuMo could be non-canon, with SuMo probably happening before XY, by considering Ash's overly childish glee and behavior.

Heck, BW already broke the continuity thread, so anything happened after DP is pretty much in the air, as much as it pains me to say so.

 

[Necrozma]

Could be, could be not. Considering that the Pokémon timeline is almost as wacky as the Mario and The Legend of Zelda timelines, and as such it isn't really clear what happens when, then yes. Both XY and SuMo could be non-canon, with SuMo probably happening before XY, by considering Ash's overly childish glee and behavior.

Heck, BW already broke the continuity thread, so anything happened after DP is pretty much in the air, as much as it pains me to say so.

I still fail to see why people find it so hard to accept he acts like a 10 year old child again.

If the behavior doesn't come at the cost of his competence, why are people so unhappy?

 

[Cresselia92]

I still fail to see why people find it so hard to accept he acts like a 10 year old child again.

If the behavior doesn't come at the cost of his competence, why are people so unhappy?

Mainly because said personality is jarring.

I don't care much about age. At the end of the day, that is merely a number. What I care the most is the actual progression and consistency of Ash's personality. I mean, it's just all over the place.

In OS, he was somewhat bratty and sometimes incompetent, but actually learned a lot from his travels and his negative traits mellowed, just as his skills were honed.

However, in AG he started becoming more arrogant after gaining said skills, and as such needed to be humbled down by other people, like Drake (or whatever the name is). Lesson learned, he shed his negative traits again.

In DP, his skills improved exponentially and he became an even better Trainer, but found an obstacle in the form of Paul, which bested him in every way, resulting at some point in a depression mini-arc. However, he recovered, and managed to beat Paul with his own skills and prove the latter wrong.

Until now, there is some evident progress, which came to an halt with BW. I'm still puzzled by how his skills have dropped so much and how he has forgotten even the most basic knowledge. I-I mean, was he the same Ash? The same person who has taught many things to May and Dawn?

Then XY happened, and his skills skyrocketed again, to the point that he really was a top tier Trainer, showcasing all his skills and managing to go toe-to-toe with powerful Trainers. Alas, winning "too much" resulted in him losing focus of what it means to be a Trainer, which he learned the hard way after losing to Wulfric. However, he later re-learned his lesson and managed to bring back the "same" Ash.

And now, here we are in SM, with an overly excited and gag-filled Ash that gives a good run for his money to OS Ash, of all people.

I care about him being competent, sure, but not at the cost of his original personality. It's the same complaint I have had with BW Team Rocket, which got bland and boring grunt-like personality in exchange of being "cool". Sure, XY Ash may not have been an emotional explosion, but at least he still fitted his progress.

This is why I simply cannot accept SM Ash, and the art style isn't doing any favor either. I find that really disappointing, just like BW Ash.

 

[HenryBeatz]

I'm confused, don't know what to think I really liked the first 2 episodes of S&M anime but this gives me doubts, I shouldn't have read this thread, fuck...

 

[Necrozma]

I'm confused, don't know what to think I really liked the first 2 episodes of S&M anime but this gives me doubts, I shouldn't have read this thread, fuck...

Trust the anime itself.

So far it has had continuity which confirms it is not a reboot of any sort.

 

[SammyW27]

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

The producers and creative team like the pick & choose (cherry pick even) continuity and what to bring back & reference as it suits them, so I wouldn't take this at face value.

I wouldn't rule out any references & special guest appearances
(I'll still bet even money we get a Serena guest stint or special sooner or later)

This is a show for kids, based on video games for kids. In the immortal words of Basil: Don't worry about this sort of thing and just enjoy yourself.

 

[Shadao]

I don't recall this ever happening in XY or XY&Z. Seems an unreasonable standard to hold the show to, given it just acknowledged its own history and already proven that SM doesn't exist in some sort of vacuum.


I mean, think about it like this. Sun and Moon already acknowledged things that had happened in the show in the past, so we know it takes place in the same universe. And as we know for a fact Ash adventure went Kanto > Orange Islands > Johto > Hoenn > Kanto > Sinnoh > Unova > Kalos, Sun and Moon can only take place after XY, otherwise it'd be a retcon.

There is a continuity bridge, however, with XY and Best Wishes. Best Wishes ends Ash and Alexa leaving Kanto for the Kalos and it lays the groundwork for the XY series such as Ash getting his XY clothes and Team Rocket getting Wobbuffet back. And XY starts off with Ash and Alexa arriving to Kalos.

XY&Z to Sun & Moon doesn't really have a continuity bridge. Oh sure, Ash returns home at the end of XY&Z and the first episode of Sun & Moon showcase how they left to Alola in a flashback. But you can also make the argument that Sun & Moon took place directly after Diamond and Pearl, with Best Wishes and XY being non-canon. You don't see Rotom with Samuel Oak (unless he gave to his cousin in Alola) and the 5 Poké Balls are vague enough for anyone to say Ash was rotating his Pokémon/holding his Sinnoh Team before he left as oppose to simply assuming the logical conclusion that they are Ash's Kalos Pokémon. Without a concrete reference to past, be it from the original series or the immediate predecessor, one could easily mistaken Sun & Moon to be a reboot. After all, Ash is no longer on a League quest and with the emphasis on school, I suspect we won't be seeing a traditional League anytime soon.

In order to invalidate the words of someone who had worked on the show (as Sound Director no less) and thus has more weight on the matter, a direct continuity reference is needed. It could be a returing character like Serena or Greninja, or at least an elaborate discussion of Ash's adventure prior to Alola. That's what ultimately prevented Best Wishes from being seen as a complete reboot instead of a continuation with a semi-reboot touch.

Like I said, until a direct reference to the previous show is made (and not a Tauros comment), I am more inclined to believe the words of someone who had worked on the show this time around (just like the notion of Ash being 10 years old despite the fact that XY&Z made him appear much older and experienced than usual)

 

[Hidden Mew]

I find it easier to believe that the games involve different timelines since we follow different characters and we kind of know about a general timeline for the series, although I still don't know what Sun/Moon adds to that.

Trying to do the same thing with the anime wouldn't quite work primarily because we are still following Ash and his Pikachu. Unless they pointed out something significant like providing a different backstory for Ash or that he hasn't made any other journeys before, then I don't think we can just go with the assumption that this is an alternate universe take on the characters. It's especially hard to believe that when the first episodes make clear references to previous series. It's relatively minor references, but with Ash giving back five Pokeballs and mentioning he had a Taruos, that's going to make it more difficult to really buy the idea that this is an alternate universe.

I wouldn't be against the idea per say. Other franchise like Yu-Gi-Oh! and Digimon have tackled alternate universes for their series and to great effect in some cases, but I think it's kind of too late to try doing that for Pokemon. Even with Yu-Gi-Oh!, they waited until the fourth series to try an alternate universe and that felt like a natural choice due to how much they had done with the original timeline up to that point. Pokemon doesn't really need an alternate universe take, at least as far as the main series is concerned. It's not a continuity heavy series and they basically start off fresh with every series anyway, so I don't really see the creative advantage of having an alternate universe setting for SM. It's still going to focus on Ash and Pikachu making friends and capturing new Pokemon. It still seems more like the kind of idea that would appeal to some long time fans or those who aren't happy with SM already rather than something that the creative team decided to do.

 

[HenryBeatz]

Trust the anime itself.

So far it has had continuity which confirms it is not a reboot of any sort.

Yea bro, that's what I'm gonna do, I think I should unsuscribe negative Youtube, twitter, facebook pokeranters cuz they got me angry and I have watched episode 1 and 2 of S&M like three times already, that's how much I enjoyed the new anime, it's a plus I finished the second semester of college yesterday.

 

[The Amazing Popplio]

There is a continuity bridge, however, with XY and Best Wishes. Best Wishes ends Ash and Alexa leaving Kanto for the Kalos and it lays the groundwork for the XY series such as Ash getting his XY clothes and Team Rocket getting Wobbuffet back. And XY starts off with Ash and Alexa arriving to Kalos.

XY&Z to Sun & Moon doesn't really have a continuity bridge. Oh sure, Ash returns home at the end of XY&Z and the first episode of Sun & Moon showcase how they left to Alola in a flashback. But you can also make the argument that Sun & Moon took place directly after Diamond and Pearl, with Best Wishes and XY being non-canon. You don't see Rotom with Samuel Oak (unless he gave to his cousin in Alola) and the 5 Poké Balls are vague enough for anyone to say Ash was rotating his Pokémon/holding his Sinnoh Team before he left as oppose to simply assuming the logical conclusion that they are Ash's Kalos Pokémon. Without a concrete reference to past, be it from the original series or the immediate predecessor, one could easily mistaken Sun & Moon to be a reboot. After all, Ash is no longer on a League quest and with the emphasis on school, I suspect we won't be seeing a traditional League anytime soon.

In order to invalidate the words of someone who had worked on the show (as Sound Director no less) and thus has more weight on the matter, a direct continuity reference is needed. It could be a returing character like Serena or Greninja, or at least an elaborate discussion of Ash's adventure prior to Alola. That's what ultimately prevented Best Wishes from being seen as a complete reboot instead of a continuation with a semi-reboot touch.

Like I said, until a direct reference to the previous show is made (and not a Tauros comment), I am more inclined to believe the words of someone who had worked on the show this time around (just like the notion of Ash being 10 years old despite the fact that XY&Z made him appear much older and experienced than usual)

Again the fact that pikachu uses electro ball is a reference. If it was exactly after dp and before bw he should have used instead volt tackle. So it has to be a time after the bw series. And since xy came immediately after bw and it can't have been between them it is after xy as well.

 

[Cresselia92]

Again the fact that pikachu uses electro ball is a reference. If it was exactly after dp and before bw he should have used instead volt tackle. So it has to be a time after the bw series. And since xy came immediately after bw and it can't have been between them it is after xy as well.

The anime has many timeline discrepancies. For example, "Training Daze" from Pokémon Chronicles contradicts a fact that has been mentioned in previous episodes, with Chronicles implying that they met each other after joining, while previous episodes said that they met each other long time ago.

I think they made Pikachu have Electro Ball for the younger audience's sake, since children are more familiar with Electro Ball than they are with Volt Tackle, rather than for consistency.