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Pokemon SM is NOT continuation of XY(&Z)

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"What do you mean, my Gengarite is contraband?!"
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Oh come on... I might be another hater of BW but I'm not taking this as any incentive to remove it from continuity or set it before SM (which is silly because Electro Ball). As far as I'm concerned, it happened and we should get over it. I hear enough of this "decanonise all the stuff we don't like" from those who dislike the Star Wars prequels.

Why did we even start bringing BW up here in the first place?
 
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If Team Rocket are going to be showing up in the third episode, then pay careful attention to the dialogue between themselves, and between them and Giovanni.

Is there any reference to Inkay & Gourgeist? (or not?)
Is there any reference to anything regarding their claim (via the video they made) that they were responsible for bringing down Team Flare? (or not?)

The fact that they still have Wobbuffet with them shows that there is some kind of continuity still in place. Whether or not they reference anything at all regarding Kalos will be a telling sign.
 
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Without a concrete reference to past, be it from the original series or the immediate predecessor, one could easily mistaken Sun & Moon to be a reboot. After all, Ash is no longer on a League quest and with the emphasis on school, I suspect we won't be seeing a traditional League anytime soon.
Pikachu, Delia, Prof. Oak, Pallet Town, Ash recognising Charizard and Tauros, Ash saying he owns a Tauors - are these not references to the past, then? Did these things only come into existence in Sun and Moon?

In order to invalidate the words of someone who had worked on the show (as Sound Director no less) and thus has more weight on the matter, a direct continuity reference is needed. It could be a returing character like Serena or Greninja, or at least an elaborate discussion of Ash's adventure prior to Alola. That's what ultimately prevented Best Wishes from being seen as a complete reboot instead of a continuation with a semi-reboot touch.
Sounds like an excuse to cram in some XY references, to be frank.

"It's okay, I'm used to Tauros because I own one" - how much more of a direct reference to the past do you need? I don't know why you keep dismissing it as irrelevant or somehow not enough. That line wouldn't be in the final script at all if the intention was to ignore the past.

XY barely had any references to the past yet funnily enough I didn't see anyone claiming it was a reboot, AU or spin-off.
 
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XY barely had any references to the past yet funnily enough I didn't see anyone claiming it was a reboot, AU or spin-off.
It's called selective criticism.

XY Ash looks good in the old art style and is super serious all the time so people are okay with it. But SM Ash actually dares to laugh and enjoy himself and he looks ugly (according to them) so SM must surely be a reboot.

People don't actually care about continuity references - they base everything off of Ash's behavior and appearance.
 
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XY Ash looks good in the old art style and is super serious all the time so people are okay with it. But SM Ash actually dares to laugh and enjoy himself and he looks ugly (according to them) so SM must surely be a reboot.
...I don't think I actually want to know what kind of thought (if any) went into that "logic".
 
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The new anime director was also working for dragon ball GT, a spinoff series which had references to earlier series. So, she is trying the same with pokemon anime?
No. Matsui Aya was in charge of series composition. They work with the series director to establish the tone of the series and dynamics of the characters. The series director ultimately decides the plot and the series composer works that into scripts.

The sound director reports directly to the series director, who is present for all of the voice recordings. Series Director Tomiyasu Daiki probably told Mima to treat Satoshi differently from XY, hence Sun & Moon is not a 'continuation' of what they were doing with XY.

Don't think so linearly. Or literally.
 
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This is why I'm calling BS on this: if it isn't a continuation, why not just give Ash a happy ending? And why is Pikachu still roughly as powerful as he was?

I will wait for Serena to appear or be referenced, or any of his old friends. if they don't, then I will take this claim seriously.
 
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This is why I'm calling BS on this: if it isn't a continuation, why not just give Ash a happy ending? And why is Pikachu still roughly as powerful as he was?

I will wait for Serena to appear or be referenced, or any of his old friends. if they don't, then I will take this claim seriously.
It's not a continuation of what was being done in XY, but it's still the general Satoshi concept, a malleable figure that can be placed into any situation. Satoshi isn't a set, original character. He plays whatever role the staff need him to play in the dynamic they want to create. This is why his role changed in Best Wishes, because they wanted to have the dynamic he had with Iris and Dent.
 
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I was musing that maybe this was just an Alola variant Ash, but now...

...if they aren't going to even pretend there's a loose continuity between series they honestly should have just created a new character from the ground-up and let Ash win the Kalos league.

Ash in coma theory is canon and this is his coma dream

Ash is a Faller

Maybe Ash never went to the Orange Islands and simply left Brock and Misty after losing the Kanto league
 
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Pikachu, Delia, Prof. Oak, Pallet Town, Ash recognising Charizard and Tauros, Ash saying he owns a Tauors - are these not references to the past, then? Did these things only come into existence in Sun and Moon?



Sounds like an excuse to cram in some XY references, to be frank.

"It's okay, I'm used to Tauros because I own one" - how much more of a direct reference to the past do you need? I don't know why you keep dismissing it as irrelevant or somehow not enough. That line wouldn't be in the final script at all if the intention was to ignore the past.

XY barely had any references to the past yet funnily enough I didn't see anyone claiming it was a reboot, AU or spin-off.
To me, past references has to be a bit more explicit than just possible nods that fans may or may not be referencing this or that. Yes, there are stables maintained for each series. But at the same time, is not hard for them animated Tracey for once? Or even Rotom? Surely having Samuel Oak's Rotom be there would have been a great way to tie the series of XY&Z and Sun & Moon together. It wouldn't hurt to include them, especially if Sun & Moon is suppose to have more continuity.

As for Ash recognizing Charizard and Tauros, I distinctly recall him recognizing Pidgey on his first day as a trainer and later a Beedril in the third episode despite pulling out the good old Pokédex for data. Recognizing a Pokémon is a stretching point for me. If he mentions of having a Pokémon like owning a Tauros, then that's supporting the argument of referencing the past. However, I believe actually showing the characters and Pokémon would much more welcomed than just mentioning it. I do recall people wanted more than just Ash making a vague reference to Dawn's Piplup. There's a reason why Charizard's return was a welcome home party for many old fans. They didn't simply say Ash has a Charizard and that's the end of it. They dedicated a whole episode as to why it's an important Pokémon to Ash and why fans love to see him again, and they brought him back on screen present day for everyone to know that this is not a troll episode. By this point, off-hand references need to show and not tell.

That's why things like Misty's Lure has more weight to the series than say Ash mentioning Dawn's Piplup because we actually see the lure and it is indeed in the shape of Misty. Not someone saying that Ash has a Misty lure and we never see it. Likewise, the last Best Wishes episode shows all the companions that Ash has traveled and while we don't get to their names again, just seeing them even for a memory cameo is good enough of a continuity.

Even XY should have had more continuity than it did, the reason why no one considered it an AU is because 1) there was a continuity bridge between Best Wishes and XY&Z which makes it harder for someone to cut off at Best Wishes and 2) Ash's portrayal correlates to people's belief that Ash should logically be a seasoned and very skilled trainer after 17 years of travel. Whether you like it or not, no one can say it didn't make people at the sight of Ash finally retaining the skills he deserve to keep. And I'm glad that's still maintained here in Sun & Moon.

I believe the argument against the notion that Sun & Moon is a complete reboot of Ash and Pikachu would have been stronger had XY&Z ended with a more obvious hook of Ash traveling to Alola. I recall fans here Ash receiving a call from Oak to come with him to Alola and meet his cousin Samson Oak or getting an invitation to build the Alola League due to his skills as a trainer, acting as the hook for Sun & Moon. Heck, people speculated about Oak's Rotom being an early cameo for the Rotomdex. But we never really got that ending. Instead, it ends with Ash returning home and there is no tagline telling people to continue watching for Sun & Moon. It's pretty much feels an actual ending to the show, which never before except maybe in Diamond and Pearl. And Sun & Moon does not start off with Ash waving his entire Pokémon squad at the lab goodbye (to show they do exist and Ash could call upon them if he wants to) or even mention his past achievements like the first episode of Best Wishes does. Intentional or not, it creates a sense of gap between XY&Z and Sun & Moon. And to an extent, a gap between Sun & Moon and the rest of the series.

Of course, that issue could be amended with more direct continuity references to the past. And I do wish to see old characters return, and not just those from XY.
 
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Recognizing a Pokémon is a stretching point for me. If he mentions of having a Pokémon like owning a Tauros, then that's supporting the argument of referencing the past. However, I believe actually showing the characters and Pokémon would much more welcomed than just mentioning it. I do recall people wanted more than just Ash making a vague reference to Dawn's Piplup. There's a reason why Charizard's return was a welcome home party for many old fans. They didn't simply say Ash has a Charizard and that's the end of it. They dedicated a whole episode as to why it's an important Pokémon to Ash and why fans love to see him again, and they brought him back on screen present day for everyone to know that this is not a troll episode. By this point, off-hand references need to show and not tell.
Charizard's return was pure fanservice. It had nothing to do with the plot of Episode N and his role was minimal at best, which makes it the worst type of fanservice possible.

You can't just throw references in for the sake of appeasing a few fans if it doesn't make sense in the context of the episode. Ash mentioned Piplup but it was an episode about Dedenne and Bonnie, so anymore talk about Piplup and, by extension, Dawn would have been out-of-place. Likewise, there's no need for anything more than a throwaway line about Ash owning a Tauros, because the scene wasn't about the Tauros, but the new characters.

That's why things like Misty's Lure has more weight to the series than say Ash mentioning Dawn's Piplup because we actually see the lure and it is indeed in the shape of Misty. Not someone saying that Ash has a Misty lure and we never see it. Likewise, the last Best Wishes episode shows all the companions that Ash has traveled and while we don't get to their names again, just seeing them even for a memory cameo is good enough of a continuity
This, on the other hand, is more acceptable because it made sense in the context of the episode. Ash was fishing, so they can show one of his lures without it being unnatural. Note how they didn't talk about Misty at all in that episode, because it wasn't important to the actual plot.

I believe the argument against the notion that Sun & Moon is a complete reboot of Ash and Pikachu would have been stronger had XY&Z ended with a more obvious hook of Ash traveling to Alola.
This shouldn't even be an argument.

A reboot means scrapping all previous continuity and reintroducing the concept, characters and world. It means starting again from scratch. Sun and Moon does not do this. Sun and Moon assumes people already know who Ash is, why he has a Pikachu, who his mother is, who Professor Oak is, and what Pokemon are. It assumes that people have watched the previous series.

I don't get this sense of gap between series. As far am I'm concerned, Ash returned home from Kalos, won a holiday, went on holiday, then decided to stay. The previous series was XY, and I have no reason to believe that it wasn't the previous series. This doesn't need to be complicated at all by trying to shoehorn Sun and Moon into some other point in the series.
 
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Charizard's return was pure fanservice. It had nothing to do with the plot of Episode N and his role was minimal at best, which makes it the worst type of fanservice possible.

You can't just throw references in for the sake of appeasing a few fans if it doesn't make sense in the context of the episode. Ash mentioned Piplup but it was an episode about Dedenne and Bonnie, so anymore talk about Piplup and, by extension, Dawn would have been out-of-place. Likewise, there's no need for anything more than a throwaway line about Ash owning a Tauros, because the scene wasn't about the Tauros, but the new characters.
Oh no one can deny that Charizard's overall role is wasted in N, but that is another issue for another day as they could have integrated the good old lizard far better. Same goes with any other shoe-in references. But Charizard's return, as well as the Oak reserves at the League, has precedent of tying all fans together with various Pokémon they grew up as fans of the show. As much as I love XY, it could have benefitted a lot more had it integrated a bit more references to the past in harmless gestures. Certainly talking to Oak and Delia before the Kalos League would be nice.

And really, I'm just waiting to see what Sun & Moon is up to in terms of continuity. It has the potential of connecting the rest of the series far stronger than other series (fulfilling the "It all comes together" motto)... or it could go to an isolated path and not reference the past at all like XY except be even more prevalent (just when it's the 20th anniversary of Pokémon).

This shouldn't even be an argument.

A reboot means scrapping all previous continuity and reintroducing the concept, characters and world. It means starting again from scratch. Sun and Moon does not do this. Sun and Moon assumes people already know who Ash is, why he has a Pikachu, who his mother is, who Professor Oak is, and what Pokemon are. It assumes that people have watched the previous series.

I don't get this sense of gap between series. As far am I'm concerned, Ash returned home from Kalos, won a holiday, went on holiday, then decided to stay. The previous series was XY, and I have no reason to believe that it wasn't the previous series. This doesn't need to be complicated at all by trying to shoehorn Sun and Moon into some other point in the series.
To say that is to say that "Sun and Moon assumes people already know Ash is, why he has a Pikachu, who his mother is, who Professor Oak is, and what Pokemon are" doesn't mean to me that continuity is intact. The way they set up Ash is virtually a reintroduction to his character. He's a 10 year old kid with a Pikachu who loves Pokémon and he has a mother who takes care of him, as well as a Professor that he does errands for. There's virtually no information missing that you need to see from the previous show (especially when a common staple of Ash's journey, Leagues and Badges, are no longer around), something that wasn't the case in previous shows.

XY started off with Ash and Alexa arriving in the Kalos region but unless you watched the last episode of Best Wishes, you don't know why or how exactly Ash is traveling with Alexa all of a sudden. Likewise, Best Wishes ends with Ash getting his new clothes and traveling with Alexa on a plane to an unknown region for new Pokémon and challenges. It's not really a conclusion where the viewer can simply stop watching. Likewise, the original series ended with a cliffhanger where Pikachu is in a dire condition, and that wasn't resolved until the first episode of the AG series. AG ended with Ash getting a taste of Sinnoh from Gary Oak and traveling there with Pikachu and Aipom, giving audience an incentive to watch the next series to see what this trio is going to do.

Only DP and XY ends with a more resolved conclusion and they happen to be followed by a series that many would consider to be a semi-reboot/not really a continuation. That's what I mean by gap. A DP viewer has little incentive to follow Best Wishes there was nothing major pointing within towards Ash heading to the Unova region (the only foreshadowing was Team Rocket's new assignment to a new region). Likewise, a XY viewer has no incentive to follow the Sun & Moon anime given how XY doesn't end with any hanging notes that Sun & Moon would resolve. Best Wishes, for all of its faults, did establish stronger continuity within the first episode by showing all of Ash's little achievements in his 14+ year career within his room (though it might have harmed the show considering the infamous reset). If Sun & Moon does that more often visually, then I would be more inclined to see this as a continuation instead of a new series featuring a new Ash and Pikachu.
 
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Dephender from Serebiiforums cleared it up:

Dephender said:
It's mistranslated. You don't even seem to realize the sentences continue across tweets. He's talking about the feel of the characters and how they come across, not about "canon", which should be obvious enough considering the continuity references in episode 1.

Nothing to see here.
So yeah, mistranslated.
 
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Makes sense, given the dramatic shift of tone and presentation versus XY & Z.

That being said... why the need for disconnect? This is one of the things that I hate in storytelling, and this even goes into the way the Pokémon games are going now (don't believe me? Play Sun & Moon), is this idea of alternate timelines and stuff. Not to mention the ability to disregard anything that happened if people don't like it.
 
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If Sun & Moon does that more often visually, then I would be more inclined to see this as a continuation instead of a new series featuring a new Ash and Pikachu.
To be frank, this reads like you're in denial. There's nothing that suggests that Sun and Moon is not a continuation of the series. There are links from the first episode to the rest of the series that you keep conveniently writing off. To say nothing of the fact that were it a completely new series they would have made everyone aware of it. It would have certainly been mentioned in their advertising.

There's a reason why the show doesn't bother with continuity references: most of the time, it's simply not important to whatever story they're trying to tell. Too much pandering detracts from the current story by reducing its importance, and comes off as patronising to fans who are perfectly capable of connecting the dots on their own.
 
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To be frank, this reads like you're in denial. There's nothing that suggests that Sun and Moon is not a continuation of the series. There are links from the first episode to the rest of the series that you keep conveniently writing off. To say nothing of the fact that were it a completely new series they would have made everyone aware of it. It would have certainly been mentioned in their advertising.

There's a reason why the show doesn't bother with continuity references: most of the time, it's simply not important to whatever story they're trying to tell. Too much pandering detracts from the current story by reducing its importance, and comes off as patronising to fans who are perfectly capable of connecting the dots on their own.
Denial? That's quite premature on your part. If I hadn't made it clear, I'm in a wait and see moment since there is potential to go either way. Ash of Sun & Moon is currently in a limbo. He has the trappings of a new character, but he has that inner spark from XY&Z that needs to seen shown often (and something the previews should highlight moreso than just the simiply comedy aspects). It's sort of like an inverse BW Ash to me, who has the trappings of a veteran but the personality embarrasses his previous performance. As for continuity, I feel that 3 years of little continuity is more than enough given the 20th anniversary of Pokémon. Would it have hurt to show Rotom being with Professor Oak or better yet travel with Ash and become his new Pokédex? That would have been a great way to tie the series and still be relevant to the story.

Again, I'm on the fence for Sun & Moon at the moment. I see potential but I need to see more to determine its worth. Try not to make me reconsider giving this a chance.
 
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The series are supposed to be in chronological order and I assume that SM will eventually reference some XYZ elements (5 Poke Balls don't really count).

But honestly, only the first four series feel like a cohesive storyline where continuity actually mattered. In that sense, BW, XYZ and SM are all alternate realities.

I'm glad that Ash didn't win the Kalos League because it would have felt completely hollow. If anything, he should have won the Sinnoh League.
 
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Yeah, I refuse to believe that Sun and Moon is a completely new series that just happens to star the same two characters... this just smacks of lost in translation combined with taking something said literally. I think it's more of a case that people should watch this without recalling stuff from XY&Z and instead with fresh eyes. I mean, it can't be a complete reboot... Satoshi handed over five Poke Balls to Okido AND referenced the fact he had captured a Kentauros. Reboots and resets don't do that. Hell, that's more continuity than we ever got in XY.
 
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There is something that people need to understand, and that is that a reboot doesn't necessarily mean scrapping completely the plot and starting totally anew, nor it needs an official announcement to be considered such.

I'm going to give a comics-related example: the Duck Avenger, also known as Paperinik, and Donald Duck's superheroic alterego (in a way very akin to Batman), which has a really clear origin completely unchanged and referenced throughout all these years. Said character became so popular that he gained his own series, known as PKNA (ergo PaperiniK New Adventures), where he gains a larger role and goes from fighting regular thieves and criminals to fighting aliens and bigger menaces.

However, in order to better appeal to the international audience, the authors of PKNA decided to scrap completely the origins of the original Duck Avenger and made him become a superhero in a completely different way, which is very similar to the way in which he started to fight aliens, completely forgoing the classic and well-known beginning.

Despite this, both Donald Ducks' backstories are exactly the same: they take care of three nephews, they have a very rich uncle, they have a girlfriend, and so on. Only difference is their beginnings as superheroes, which clash heavily with previous events established by canon.

As such, there is absolutely nothing stopping the anime staff from treating this saga as a series unrelated to previous sagas. Besides, the only reference we got so far is a reference to OS, and considering that this is the 20th anniversary of Pokemon, it wouldn't be too weird for them to reference the series connected to the first games. If we got a shot showcasing Talonflame, Hawlucha and Noivern then it would be a totally different story, but the fact that everything is kept so generic is quite suspicious.

Of course, right now this is merely a theory. If Sun/Moon will showcase concrete and clear references from all series, then we can say for sure that is follows the timeline of all the other series. Otherwise, SuMo will be considered a sequel of XY only on the basis of it coming right after XY and having vague references.

Call me in denial if you wish. Anyway, when the anime will prove me wrong, I will dishearteningly accept the truth and consider this the "true" sequel. Until then, I prefer to keep a more critical view.
 
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I remember years back when people argued whether Best Wishes was in a different continuity than the previous 4 generations. They say this is a different continuity, but that leads to a number of plot-holes that I think everyone here has pointed out already, such as the 5 Poke-balls at the beginning and Ash owning a Tauros.

It doesn't help that since DP ended, the writers haven't exactly had a good track record of keeping continuity from the previous seasons. I understand if they want to keep the show fresh for new viewers, but the show can't seem to make up it's mind as to whether it wants to be a continuation or a soft reboot, which results in a lot of inconsistencies.
 
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