Pokemon SM is NOT continuation of XY(&Z)

[Arceus the Dragon]

SM series is still canon to the whole show. But it is not continuing from Kalos which I am glad for. However it is too early to believe SM would be better,

 

[Jaye]

I see the points being raised here and I understand. Yes, more obvious references would leave little doubt about Sun and Moon's place in the canon. I just believe they aren't necessary, given what we've already seen and already know about the show. Pokemon doesn't have an overarching story, there's no end goal that requires a fixed timeline or sequence of events to arrive at, so connecting the dots isn't all that important to following what's going on.

The skepticism confuses me. I don't recall XY ever receiving the same amount of skepticism, even though lack of continuity references was a common complaint by the end of the series. Yet all of a sudden there are people trying to portray Sun and Moon as somehow not part of everything else, and holding it up to a standard that didn't exist before. I'm trying to understand why there's a resistance to accepting it as a continuation - do people want it to be non-canon? Do they want it be an AU, a reboot, and so on? If so, why?

I get that there's a desire for everything to link and a desire for there to be something bigger but the reality is there is nothing bigger. This is a show about the journey and the journey is never-ending - every journey takes places in the same universe and everything that happens is canon. What ultimately links everything together is that its Ash and Pikachu who go on new adventures and not anybody else. That's why I used the word denial, strong as it may come across. It feels like some are either ignoring or forgetting the nature of the show they're watching.

 

[TokoTamer]

The skepticism confuses me. I don't recall XY ever receiving the same amount of skepticism, even though lack of continuity references was a common complaint by the end of the series. Yet all of a sudden there are people trying to portray Sun and Moon as somehow not part of everything else, and holding it up to a standard that didn't exist before. I'm trying to understand why there's a resistance to accepting it as a continuation - do people want it to be non-canon? Do they want it be an AU, a reboot, and so on? If so, why?

It's pretty simple, really. Pokémon fans, more so than any other fandom, are incredibly resistant to change.

SM is the most different the show has ever been and is therefore "bad." Whether it's the new art direction, the excess humor, Satoshi's personality, the lack of explicit traveling companions or whatever, long-time fans are just finding new, scary things that they don't like and are eager to distance it from the rest of the series.

XY, on the other hand, was extremely well received from the get go. It kept the usual formula intact and featured a seemingly older, serious and more experienced version of Satoshi (alongside popular companions), all with a sharp animation style. It was almost exactly what the majority of older fans wanted out of the show, so of course they weren't eager to start figuring out ways to wipe it from continuity. SM, however, is The Pokémon Company's direct answer to Yo-kai Watch. They've taken note of various things that have made that series successful with today's kids and have molded the Pokémon anime accordingly.

 

[Necrozma]

That's why I used the word denial, strong as it may come across. It feels like some are either ignoring or forgetting the nature of the show they're watching.

Ignoring.

People are not in denial. The thing is, XY gave people the kind of Ash they wanted (for some reason) - the one who doesn't joke around all that lot, who is serious and is a competent battler. For them, anything that strays away from that ideal is seen as 'wrong' and 'non-canon', so they try to justify it by placing the series and its characters into some alternate universe. Even if Ash may still be the same person at heart (which the SM anime premiere pretty much proved) and even if he may say stuff that PROVES we are talking about the same old Ash (which, again, the SM anime premiere proved), and even if he may still be competent (and I'd say he was pretty darn competent in the premiere), superficial stuff such as Ash's appearance or his emotive behavior (can you imagine? A 10-year old child acting like a genuine human being?) will make them feel despise for the character even when that character has done nothing wrong.

The reason I am saying they are deliberately ignoring it is because nobody complained about zero continuity as long as Ash was "badass" in XY. But now that Ash is no longer their boring, emotionless shell of a character that is superior to 90% of the population, they are ready to jump on the 'zero continuity' train in order to find an excuse not only to hate on this series, but to outright dismiss it as non-canon so their perfect little fantasy known as XY remains intact and unspoiled by the Sun and Moon anime series.

 

[Master Cyrus]

I just don't like his new design. XY's was perfect and they ruined it.

 

[CrystaI]

Dephender from Serebiiforums cleared it up:

So yeah, mistranslated.

First thing first, I apologize for didn't notice the tweets were connected when posting the opening post. So it may leads to confusion between the line. So I'll apologize for that.

HOWEVER!!! Once I revised his tweets by connecting them all together, still it doesn't negates the meaning I grasp from his words. The internal meaning in the message still remains the same even if the tweets were connected or divided like it was.

Sorry I refuse the protest of Dephender where trying to say Mima Masafumi is talking about the feel of the characters and how they came across, argue back by what happened on-screen during the episodes it had already aired. Simply because he just never said anything like that in his words. I don't want to discuss what happened on-screen in the Anime, I just wanted to discuss what Mima Masafumi had said in his tweets.

When the four consecutive tweets were combined, they are now one full letter like this, in original Japanese:

ついに！
本日18時55分から
チャンネル7にて
ポケットモンスター・新シリーズ
『ポケットモンスター サン&ムーン』がスタート！
初回から、なんと！
1時間スペシャルw
昨年の今頃に、音響部は
新シリーズのお話を頂き、今年の春にはオーディションを追え
アフレコは、劇場作業を終えて、すぐに突入！
私にとっては、一年かけての
皆さんへのお披露目になる（監督達は、もっと前から動いていた）。前作の『ポケットモンスターXY&Z』の矢嶋監督の熱量による最終回。その影響かどうかは、わからないが、新シリーズの冨安監督も負け時の熱量を感じる。「新しい」をキーワードに色々なチャレンジをしている（それは、観てのお楽しみだ♬）。ひとつだけ、ご紹介しよう。
写メが、今回の『ポケットモンスター サン&ムーン』の表紙だ。そう！毎回、印象に残るカットが表紙を飾っているのだ。
『ポケットモンスター XY&Z』の続きではない、全く新しいサトシとピカチュウのアローラでの発見、冒険、友情を皆さんに感じて貰える事、心から嬉しく、また感謝で一杯だ。
余り多くを語るのは、野暮だw。
先入観無く、新しい『ポケットモンスター』の世界を、全力で感じて欲しい♬
宜しくお願い致します！

Well, since the moderator of Serebii said I was mistranslated due to broken up the tweets, so no matter how much I protest -- despite my nearly two decades of experience in dealing Japanese language matters, able to read all sorts of Japanese articles and books from informal colloquial words to formal technical writings, watching animes and many other Japanese TV shows undubbed and unsubbed yet able to grasp the conversation finely and laugh at the jokes, even do writing works in purely Japanese -- no one going to believe it. So I won't do any retranslation by now. Anyone who can read Japanese can see his tweets in original Japanese and interpret Mima Masafumi's word in their own understanding. I won't comment on anything on how one interpret it.

Please, this article, especially the bold parts, doesn't require any rocket scientist to understand. Even an "amateur" like me can understand it finely, why not any of the "veterans" who is in love with the Japanese culture, able to travel to Japan at least once every 2~3 years, or even the ones who managed to stay in local Japan?

 

[Cresselia92]

It's pretty simple, really. Pokémon fans, more so than any other fandom, are incredibly resistant to change.

SM is the most different the show has ever been and is therefore "bad." Whether it's the new art direction, the excess humor, Satoshi's personality, the lack of explicit traveling companions or whatever, long-time fans are just finding new, scary things that they don't like and are eager to distance it from the rest of the series.

XY, on the other hand, was extremely well received from the get go. It kept the usual formula intact and featured a seemingly older, serious and more experienced version of Satoshi (alongside popular companions), all with a sharp animation style. It was almost exactly what the majority of older fans wanted out of the show, so of course they weren't eager to start figuring out ways to wipe it from continuity. SM, however, is The Pokémon Company's direct answer to Yo-kai Watch. They've taken note of various things that have made that series successful with today's kids and have molded the Pokémon anime accordingly.

You have pretty much nailed the issue here.

However, there is something I must say about change. A change could be either good or bad, and could actually make or break something. Also, changes are very subjective, so some people may appreciate the change while others may be neutral or not like it as much.

The way I see it from both the trailers and the new episodes, it's an extremely drastic change. It essentially shifted the overall mood of the series, to the point that it seems more a comedy show featuring Pokemon than a Pokemon show featuring comedy. It is simply... puzzling. Heck, even BW had more consistency and was closer to the overall tone of the anime, despite the obvious glaring flaws it had. SM, on the other hand, feels like watching an entirely new show.

On its own, it wouldn't even be that bad. It has his share of slapstick humor that many children may appreciate, as shows like Shin Chan have proved, and it would have worked beautifully as a standalone series akin to Pokemon Generations. However, as of now, it feels almost as if they took a chapter from the Pokemon Pocket Monsters manga, redrawn it and squeezed it in the Pokemon Adventures manga. This is exactly the kind of feeling I'm getting from the SM anime. It simply doesn't stick well, due to the overly different tones between sagas.

With that said, I just wanna finish with this: let people take the show as they wish. Do they want to consider it part of the continuity? That's fine. Do they want to judge it as a standalone? That's also fine. Do they want to skip it and wait for the anime to return to its "roots"? This is also fine.

Personally speaking, to me the anime either went on a hiatus or ended with XY. If I will have to judge this series, I will judge it per se, ignoring everything I had known about Ash and company. To me, this is The Pokemon Anime 2.0, with its own pseudo-continuity, and I will judge it as a separate entity.

Even if Ash may still be the same person at heart (which the SM anime premiere pretty much proved) and even if he may say stuff that PROVES we are talking about the same old Ash (which, again, the SM anime premiere proved), and even if he may still be competent (and I'd say he was pretty darn competent in the premiere), superficial stuff such as Ash's appearance or his emotive behavior (can you imagine? A 10-year old child acting like a genuine human being?) will make them feel despise for the character even when that character has done nothing wrong.

Since when an over-the-top behavior means "acting like a human being"? By this logic, Cameron must be one of the most lively human beings of the whole Pokemon anime. However, that doesn't stop him from being a mishandled character with plenty of inconsistent flaws.

Honestly, at this point is pretty much obvious that the staff doesn't know how to handle Ash and Pikachu, and as such gives them flip-flopping behaviors, ranging from too serious to too "funny", and from too competent to too idiot. If it is such an issue to balance them out, then why aren't they getting the boot yet? It would just do them good, since it's pretty much obvious that they are stuck in a perpetual circle.

Why follow the adventures of a characters that goes nowhere? It's much better to flesh out a bunch of new characters in every series, which would have all the reasons to be "fresh" and could actually get some closure, than dragging some characters that have run out their courses for way too long. Either they try to follow and develop an actual character progression with the older characters, or they get demoted to extras and cameos. It's been shown multiple times that a middle ground simply doesn't work with this kind of show, so why are they so persistent?

 

[Jaye]

Ignoring.

People are not in denial. The thing is, XY gave people the kind of Ash they wanted (for some reason) - the one who doesn't joke around all that lot, who is serious and is a competent battler. For them, anything that strays away from that ideal is seen as 'wrong' and 'non-canon', so they try to justify it by placing the series and its characters into some alternate universe. Even if Ash may still be the same person at heart (which the SM anime premiere pretty much proved) and even if he may say stuff that PROVES we are talking about the same old Ash (which, again, the SM anime premiere proved), and even if he may still be competent (and I'd say he was pretty darn competent in the premiere), superficial stuff such as Ash's appearance or his emotive behavior (can you imagine? A 10-year old child acting like a genuine human being?) will make them feel despise for the character even when that character has done nothing wrong.

The reason I am saying they are deliberately ignoring it is because nobody complained about zero continuity as long as Ash was "badass" in XY. But now that Ash is no longer their boring, emotionless shell of a character that is superior to 90% of the population, they are ready to jump on the 'zero continuity' train in order to find an excuse not only to hate on this series, but to outright dismiss it as non-canon so their perfect little fantasy known as XY remains intact and unspoiled by the Sun and Moon anime series.

See, I think it's been forgotten that Ash in XY had his fair share of comedic and stupid moments (I blame XYZ for this). In this regard he was no different to how he was in BW, DP, AG, etc. The only difference was battle competency. XY wasn't my favourite series but when I watched I didn't get the impression Ash was emotionless - it was more the stimuli around him that was boring and failed to bring out his personality more.

I feel there's a danger of hypocrisy here, where we accuse others of sweeping certain things under the rug as an excuse to bash Sun and Moon while doing the same ourselves as an excuse to defend it. Nonetheless, all this talk of resets and reboots is silly. Ash hasn't changed from series to series since OS. The only thing that's changed is the environment and the people he's traveling with. Ash appears more serious or competent next to rookies like May, Dawn and Serena, but imagine how his character would have come across if he were traveling with, say, Alan or Tobias. Ash will be an action hero badass when put in a high stakes situation with the fate of a region on his shoulders, but placed in a laidback environment he's going to be a child since there's nothing there to bring out the so-called badass part of his character.

It essentially shifted the overall mood of the series, to the point that it seems more a comedy show featuring Pokemon than a Pokemon show featuring comedy.

What's the difference? Pokemon has always been a comedy show. Every now and then it gets serious but the bulk of every saga is lighthearted, comedy fun. In this sense Sun and Moon is hardly a radical departure from the norm.

Why follow the adventures of a characters that goes nowhere?

For the same reasons why you would follow the adventures of the characters in Detective Conan, Gintama, One Piece and any other show that stretches on for a very long time.

 

[Cresselia92]

See, I think it's been forgotten that Ash in XY had his fair share of comedic and stupid moments (I blame XYZ for this). In this regard he was no different to how he was in BW, DP, AG, etc. The only difference was battle competency. XY wasn't my favourite series but when I watched I didn't get the impression Ash was emotionless - it was more the stimuli around him that was boring and failed to bring out his personality more.

Oh, I'm not afraid to admit that Ash lacked a bit more of emotions, if we exclude the running gag of him fawning over Clemont's inventions. However, he still felt and acted like Ash to me, the kind of Trainer who has "grown" and developed into a competent Trainer. Suddenly acting in such excessive childish way in Sun/Moon simply threw me off and made me very wary of him. He could grow out of this childish behavior, but he could also keep that obnoxious behavior throughout all the saga, which is what I'm fearing the most.

It's fine if some people prefer this "lively" Ash, but he simply doesn't live to my expectations. However, I appreciate Pikachu being a bit more dynamic even though I feel he is too dynamic.

I feel there's a danger of hypocrisy here, where we accuse others of sweeping certain things under the rug as an excuse to bash Sun and Moon while doing the same ourselves as an excuse to defend it. Nonetheless, all this talk of resets and reboots is silly. Ash hasn't changed from series to series since OS. The only thing that's changed is the environment and the people he's traveling with. Ash appears more serious or competent next to rookies like May, Dawn and Serena, but imagine how his character would have come across if he were traveling with, say, Alan or Tobias. Ash will be an action hero badass when put in a high stakes situation with the fate of a region on his shoulders, but placed in a laidback environment he's going to be a child since there's nothing there to bring out the so-called badass part of his character.

Fair enough, but there still need to be a minimum of character consistency in all circumstances, and we already saw what happened to his character when he was adapted around other experienced Trainers in BW. I seriously doubt anyone would want to see "Noob Ash" again...

What's the difference? Pokemon has always been a comedy show. Every now and then it gets serious but the bulk of every saga is lighthearted, comedy fun. In this sense Sun and Moon is hardly a radical departure from the norm.

As I have said earlier, it currently looks more a comedy show featuring Pokemon than the other way around. Sure, Pokemon has always been mostly an action/adventure/comedy series, but those new episodes alone have something that irks me a lot: a lack of balance. The new episodes were basically gag after gag after gag, which is a bit... excessive and overdone. There is need more than just humor to appeal to a big audience. And to make things worse, they relied way too much on exaggerated visual gags, which is a really cheap way to earn a few laughs.

I mean, not even OS, whose main selling point is its comedy and humor, had such surplus of over-the-top Pocket Monsters-like expressions.

Personally speaking, I found the first episode of the Original Series much better handled than the first episodes of Sun and Moon. It introduced the world of Pokemon, showcasing how difficult the job of a Trainer is and how dangerous the world can be, while also having its funny and heartwarming/touching moments. Nothing truly felt excessive or overdone.

In comparison, I found the introduction of the new saga weaker, comprised by 75% of gags and 15% of action, with the rest dedicated to a quick exposition of the characters and an extremely quick flashback of the events before Alola. I was very overwhelmed by the overdose of "humor" and feel that it would have been way better if it was more spread out and had some gags inserted in future episodes.

If the next episodes will follow a similar structure, I will definitely give a pass to this saga. I like slapstick, but that modus operandi and plot structure simply doesn't appeal to me.

For the same reasons why you would follow the adventures of the characters in Detective Conan, Gintama, One Piece and any other show that stretches on for a very long time.

However, all those shows have something that the Pokemon anime lacks most of the times: character consistency. Throughout all the series, the main characters are always mostly the same. Their personalities don't change in a whim between series and mostly stay faithful to their original character. They get some minor development, sure, but they stay constant specifically because their shows are supposed to last indefinitely. They are handled in a way that the main characters barely change and can be used for an endless amount of episodes without (much) repercussion.

If we look at another kid show, then we can look at the characters from Doraemon. It doesn't matter how many episodes have passed, the characters simply don't change. However, the show still has some bit of continuity, as shown by the characters recognizing some past devices used by Doraemon, like the Small Light and Big Light or the Anywhere Door.

Pokemon, however, isn't structured like those shows. It has an ongoing plot and the characters actually develop throughout the series. I mean, the May from the last episodes of AG isn't like the May from the early episodes. She has actually gone through a lot, like learning to like Pokemon and finding out her path. As such, it would be pretty much nonsensical if she suddenly started becoming afraid of Pokemon after the transition from a saga to another, and would cause great Character Derailment if this happened.

And this is precisely my issue with Ash, whose whole personality has started to ping-pong badly after the end of DP and it isn't clear anymore who is the "true" Ash. So, if the main characters cannot be dropped for some reason, then the writers should either keep a basic model and stick closely to said model, or they should try to make the characters go through constant and slow development to avoid staleness, without making Ash, Pikachu or Team Rocket suddenly act Out of Character and have their characters derailed in such drastic way.

This could be considered just a minor pet peeve to some people, but to me the plot structure and care of the characters is really important, and I really care about Ash and his development, unlike a lot of people. A show is supposed to tell a story, so it wold be preferable to avoid plot holes and inconsistencies as best as possible.

 

[Hidden Mew]

There have been multiple confirmation on these tweets being mistranslated, including one of the more well known translators within the fanbase, so the staff has decided to close this thread in order to avoid further tension and potentially spreading out false information.