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Pokémon today and the first generation

Lufenium

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So why do they keep handicapping themselves with these limitations when they no longer exist anymore?
At this point I'd say it's more of a direct creative choice to do these things rather than them being limited.
 

Envoy

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I have an unpopular opinion: the fandom as a whole needs to get the fuck over the whole 'genwunner' hate.

Look, I get it. It's annoying as fuck that Game Freak keeps pandering to the original fans of the series, but honestly, anyone who's been around since the beginning can at least understand why they keep trying to court them.

Having said that, the 'genwunners' don't actually give a single flying fuck how we as a fandom feel about them. They're not fans of the series. They were fans of the series. Over 20 years ago. They could give less of a shit about Pokemon now. Let alone being labelled *gasp* genwunner. Their complete and entire interaction with the franchise nowadays begins and ends with the words 'I played the original games and the og 151 are my favorites.' They don't care what you think. They don't care about Sceptile or Darkrai, or Volcarona, or Xerneas, or Lycanroc. They don't give a shit. I can't stress this enough. Genwunners do. not. care. We as a fanbase care more about the 'awful genwunners' than they do. And blaming the 'genwunners' for all the Kanto pandering is getting old. Which makes them easy to scapegoat because they're not gonna bother contesting your claims, but that's part of the problem.

Furthermore, lashing out against anything and everything relating to Gen I is absolutely exhausting, and just.... The first Generation was wonderful. It had delightfully charming Pokemon, a simple story that borders open world, and fun memorable characters. Did the series evolve in the future? Yes. Are Pokemon designs more intricate nowadays? Yes. Does that make them better than the more simplistic designs of Kanto? Not really. It doesn't make them worse, either. Honestly, I'll take Magnemite over Palkia any day, but I fucking love me some Aegislash. Did the story lines get more nuanced in recent years? Yes. Is that inherently a good thing? No. Just look at Gen VII.

Yes. Game Freak does keep trying to court the Gen I fans. But that's on GF. It's not the fault of Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle, and Mewtwo that they happened to come first. And hating on anything and everything Gen I because GF is stalking non-fans for their money is...pretty pathetic. There, I fucking said it. I love Gen I. I also love Gen II, and III, and IV, and V, and VI, and VII. I may have my favorites, but that doesn't mean I can't see value even in the ones I don't like as much. And especially as of late, I see way too many people trying to strip Gen I of any value whatsoever as a visceral reaction to Gen I fans and Game Freak's constant pandering to them. It's become toxic and I really think we need to self-assess and stop. Or we could keep scapegoating the Generation and the people that enjoy it and not think for ourselves to realize how we, as a fandom, have become worse than the people we lash out against. Because, let me be very clear, we absolutely have.

Like I said, unpopular opinion.
 

Icy Wind

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Having said that, the 'genwunners' don't actually give a single flying fuck how we as a fandom feel about them. They're not fans of the series. They were fans of the series. Over 20 years ago. They could give less of a shit about Pokemon now. Let alone being labelled *gasp* genwunner. Their complete and entire interaction with the franchise nowadays begins and ends with the words 'I played the original games and the og 151 are my favorites.'
I don’t know, i’ve seen some people online that wanted LGPE precisely because it only had the first 151 Pokemon and nothing else (and it seems that’s the type of audience GF wanted to attract).

And most people aren’t hating on everything Gen 1 just because it’s gen 1 (or “blaming” Pikachu or whatever). They hate Gen 1’s overexposure in the series. Like, we didn’t need a clone of Prof Oak in SM, or having gen 1 Pokemon be more common than Gen 7 Pokemon.

This pushback against the overexposure of old stuff happens with other franchises too. Look at Star Wars. People hate how nostalgia-reliant the new movies are instead of trying something new.

There is no doubt Gen 1 has it’s merits like every other game in the series, but people just want equal love for every gen and new stuff instead of 90’s nostalgia shoved in their face all the time.
 

RileyXY1

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I don’t know, i’ve seen some people online that wanted LGPE precisely because it only had the first 151 Pokemon and nothing else (and it seems that’s the type of audience GF wanted to attract).

And most people aren’t hating on everything Gen 1 just because it’s gen 1 (or “blaming” Pikachu or whatever). They hate Gen 1’s overexposure in the series. Like, we didn’t need a clone of Prof Oak in SM, or having gen 1 Pokemon be more common than Gen 7 Pokemon.

This pushback against the overexposure of old stuff happens with other franchises too. Look at Star Wars. People hate how nostalgia-reliant the new movies are instead of trying something new.

There is no doubt Gen 1 has it’s merits like every other game in the series, but people just want equal love for every gen and new stuff instead of 90’s nostalgia shoved in their face all the time.
Yeah. I'm against the Kanto pandering in the latest games, not because I hate Gen 1 and everything about it, but because I want the other gens to have equal time in the spotlight instead of always relying on 90s nostalgia.
 

TechSkylander1518

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a simple story that borders open world,
What? Gen 1 games still required you to complete the gyms in order. Just because there wasn't a more intricate plot doesn't mean the game is open-world.
and fun memorable characters
While Kanto's characters did have great personality in the anime and manga, in the games, they had considerably less. Few characters were ever seen outside of their gym/the Plateau, leaving them with only a few lines of dialogue. There's just no way to make memorable characters when they're given so little time in the spotlight.
But that's on GF. It's not the fault of Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle, and Mewtwo that they happened to come first. And hating on anything and everything Gen I because GF is stalking non-fans for their money is...pretty pathetic.
Nobody here is doing that?

I see way too many people trying to strip Gen I of any value whatsoever as a visceral reaction to Gen I fans and Game Freak's constant pandering to them.
Are we reading the same thread?
Nostalgia can be a very special feeling that I love. But GameFreak has, as I said, weaponized it and just utterly destroyed something beautiful for me.
I love Gen 1 as much as most people, but the Gen 1 pandering in the past four years or so has been excessive. Every year it seems like Game Freak/Nintendo finds a new way of topping themselves with Gen 1 promo, and my wish for the future is that they'd just take a step back and focus on designing completely new Pokemon for the Gen 8 games, yet I have a horrible feeling that they'll come up with another gimmick (like Alolan variants in Gen 7) that'll shove Gen 1 Pokemon in our faces again.
It’s not the return to Kanto that bothers me, nor do the references to Kanto in other games. Instead, what bothers me is the fact that Game Freak’s limiting themselves to nostalgia and simplicity being the main selling points of their latest games to the detriment of the games themselves.
I really don't hate Gen I, heck, my favourite Pokémon hails from that generation and having played through it I only have good memories.

BUt this whole goddamn privilege they get. LGEP, only Region to have their Pokémon get Alolan Forms, 2 of their Pokémon got 2 Megas, gift Pokémon in game, references to it, Protagonists always coming from Kanto one way or another. It's as if the makers themselves have some sort of mental incapability of thinking beyond Kanto.

Them using Gen I everywhere is what causes me to hate it.
This thread is full of people saying that they like Kanto, they're just not happy that it's taken attention away from other regions.
Or we could keep scapegoating the Generation and the people that enjoy it and not think for ourselves to realize how we, as a fandom, have become worse than the people we lash out against. Because, let me be very clear, we absolutely have.
A fandom is not a hivemind. Some people being rude does not mean everyone who enjoys Pokemon needs to feel guilty about it. If you someone being rude to people who like Gen 1, just report them instead of telling people it's a widespread problem in the community.
 

Arylett Charnoa

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I do find the first gen pandering annoying. Although I am an old fan who began during the Kanto anime, my true "nostalgia," lies with Gen 2. My first game was Silver. Gen 1 and Kanto feel totally incomplete without Gen 2 and Johto. The two compliment each other so well. All of the new evolutions introduced improve the older Pokemon, are more iconic to me, and still fit in with the style of Gen 1. (Unlike some introduced in Gen 4, in my opinion.) A piece here is missing. The least they could do is at least have some kind of post game where you can get Johto evolutions in LGPE. Hell, throw in the Gen 4 ones too. Teach people about SOME Pokemon that exist outside of the original 151!

Because if you keep advertising the original 151, nothing else will become iconic. And we will never move on. I think that's the main crux of my rage. I don't hate Kanto, but it just becomes a perpetual self-fulfilling circle jerk that we'll never get out of. No one outside of this fandom will ever know of other iconic Pokemon. And yes, they do exist! We at least one from every generation, in my opinion. Tyranitar, Flygon, Lucario, Volcarona, Greninja, Decidueye! These are all Pokemon I've heard people gush over.

I think Game Freak is starting to feel the weight of the increasing complexity of the Pokemon series, of all the Pokemon, items, and mechanics they've added. LGPE is a reaction to not just this, but also the popularity of GO, which proved that the public needs nothing but a simple concept to be drawn in. They wish to trim things down, and thought this the perfect opportunity! Let's go back to the beginning.

Except we can't anymore. I think if they want to trim things down, they should remove things like redundant items, moves, and only extremely obscure and unpopular Pokemon that most people wouldn't mind being removed.

But honestly, this makes me fear that someday, in about one or two generations from now, we may be on the verge of a complete reboot with only the first 151 Pokemon. And I mean, I have plenty of favorites from there, but losing all of these great things we've added over the years for the sake of pandering/becoming overwhelmed by too much complexity... it just seems wrong. I mean, I may be totally wrong and be overreacting. But I really have no idea where the future will go after Gen 8. We're a really lucky franchise for now, as most other monster franchises don't have every monster introduced reprise their roles in the next games for years to come. I will appreciate that until otherwise happens.
 
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PkmnTrainerV

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Except we can't anymore. I think if they want to trim things down, they should remove things like redundant items, moves, and only extremely obscure and unpopular Pokemon that most people wouldn't mind being removed.
How about not removing any Pokemon? The beauty of the series is that every Pokemon is someone's favourite.
 

Arylett Charnoa

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How about not removing any Pokemon? The beauty of the series is that every Pokemon is someone's favourite.
I'm aware of this. But we still have to take the possibility of them doing such, because the series is becoming kind of unwieldy and I think they are concerned about this. We are truly blessed as is, but I do think that this can't continue forever, and the Kanto pandering might be pointing in that direction. One of their solutions to this has been to decrease the amount of new Pokemon being introduced, after all.

Of course, I'm not saying it is a guarantee or anything. It's probably not going to happen. Just presenting an unpleasant far off (Gen 10, perhaps) possibility and fear of mine. I'd like them not to remove any, but if they are going to reboot the series at some point, I would rather that than culling everything but the first 151.
 
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prog rocker

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You know what's also exhausting? The people that keep saying "Kanto-pandering this, Kanto-pandering that, series ruined, etc." like certain people here. Jesus Christ, dudes, you're being as annoying as the genwunners, or the guys that keep asking for Led Zeppelin songs in Rock Band, or those guys that say every Final Fantasy after VII is bad. Just chill the hell out.
 

Dieter

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I still don't get why people get so incredibly riled up over LGPE. In all likelihood, nobody on this forum is in the actual target audience. If you read any of the interviews you'll notice that while representatives hope people of all ages will enjoy LGPE, the way children (and their parents) might play the game is stressed. I think this quote is pretty telling:

"Well, we had to update the graphics without making them too realistic – we wanted to maintain the game’s fantastical elements, so as not to surprise any parents who may be watching, for example. For instance, we pictured a child playing the game in the living room while their mother watches from the kitchen; it needed to seem like the kind of game that would give her peace of mind. We based the sound design off of a similar philosophy. We were particularly conscious of the need to express a sense of gentleness and ease throughout the games’ world, so we primarily utilized classical instruments"
The entire game is designed to bring in GO players and a younger audience, the latter which they deem necessary to ensure another 20 years of Pokemon. It's tailored to them and the reason they went with the first 151 pokemon rather than the 800+ pokemon we have now is because GF thought having all of those at once would be overwhelming to new players.

And it's not like they're not aware people might not like certain decisions: "I have to wonder if people will enjoy that sort of straightforward mechanic more so than the previous mechanic" (Masuda). He also mentioned " The 2019 title will truly be a game for those that are already fans of the core Pokemon series", so honestly all the rumours about a reboot or extreme simplification in the next generation seem like baseless fear mongering to me. And I could at least understand it a little if we hadn't had the announcement for the 2019 games. Judging by what is said in these interviews, they consider LGPE the start of a separate but parallel core series (depending on LGPE's popularity of course).

Honestly, the complaints about LGPE feel like an adult walking into a bookstore, grabbing a book from the childrens' section, then complaining that it's not suitable to them, the book is not challenging enough and it's too much like what they read when they were young. Frankly, it's a little ridiculous.

That said, the emphasis on generation I pokemon and Kanto in recent generations is something that sometimes gets on my nerves. Arceus knows that the pokemon that got a regional variant needed them, but those aren't the only older pokemon that need a buff. But why they didn't include Gen II regional variants in USUM will remain a mystery to me. I also can't say I mind the presence of Kanto and Johto (which are about equal), because that's based on real life. It's a nice nod.
 

Icy Wind

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“You’re not the target audience therefore you cannot complain about LGPE!!!1!” is the worst excuse i’ve seen thrown around to defend LGPE.

Pokemon has always been a franchise with kids as the primary target audience, but in previous installments they didn’t dumb down the gameplay or remove Pokemon for the sake of it.

It’s also ridiculous to exclude 600+ Pokemon because it would be “overwhelming”, when FRLG of all games still had post gen 1 pokemon in the postgame. LGPE doesn’t even have that.
 

prog rocker

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It's not that, it's that every single time LGPE is mentioned (even in passing), people come there, saying it's the worst thing ever, that they won't support the franchise anymore, or just posting the same thing over and over like a certain person here. There are people that are against even against the good things the game did, saying "it doesn't count" because it's not in a game they like. I guess I'm a little bit stressed so I'm sorry if it sounds like I exploded at your comment. I appologize for that. I guess I'm also just stressed at the "ruined forever" people that flood certain games like Pokémon, Final Fantasy or Rock Band (because asking over and over for Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd is going to bring them over to the game).

Again, sorry, I needed to vent.
 

Dieter

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“You’re not the target audience therefore you cannot complain about LGPE!!!1!” is the worst excuse i’ve seen thrown around to defend LGPE.

Pokemon has always been a franchise with kids as the primary target audience, but in previous installments they didn’t dumb down the gameplay or remove Pokemon for the sake of it.

It’s also ridiculous to exclude 600+ Pokemon because it would be “overwhelming”, when FRLG of all games still had post gen 1 pokemon in the postgame. LGPE doesn’t even have that.
Far be it for me to keep you from complaining. Rant as much as you want.

The difference now is that previous games were aimed at preteens and GF realised their initial target audience was growing up with the franchise as they continued to make games, while also attempting to draw in new, younger people. LGPE specifically has kids in mind who do not own a smartphone (yet), but old enough to play games, so that comes closer to an age range of 6-10. Simultaneously, they did attempt to make the game at least somewhat appealing to anyone. And really, I would have a lot more sympathy for complaints and criticism if most of it didn't boil down to 'the skillset these games require are much lower than the skillset I have". And that's where the very specific target audience comes in.

As for the amount of Pokemon, GO hasn't even released all pokemon yet, we still have three generations to go. So why would LGPE suddenly have pokemon of all generations? Additionally, DLC could solve the amount of poekmon and introduce later generations (which I do not necessarily expect).
 

Icy Wind

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And really, I would have a lot more sympathy for complaints and criticism if most of it didn't boil down to 'the skillset these games require are much lower than the skillset I have".
More like “These games have far less content than previous entries in the same entries, but this one costs more”.

Kids also don’t need dumbed down gameplay to play a game. Kids play far more complex games than Pokemon these days, like Minecraft or Fortnite. And the franchise regularly sells 15 million + (new gens), it’s not like they had a problem attracting newcomers to the series, you can’t do these numbers with just old fans.
As for the amount of Pokemon, GO hasn't even released all pokemon yet, we still have three generations to go. So why would LGPE suddenly have pokemon of all generations?
By the same logic, then why does LGPE lack gen 2 and gen 3 Pokemon, since those are in Go?

Additionally, DLC
There is absolutely no indication that LGPE will receive DLC.
 
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Poke Dragon

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Again, the pandering is what bothers me the most, however, what bothers me more are people who just won't let me criticize Game Freak's decisions on LGPE even though those are extremely valid criticism, like excluding 90% of Pokemon in the series is just not okay at all in my book and also making motion controls being a core important thing in a Pokemon game just doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention the candy system is already broken from the start, meaning a Pokemon can get to higher levels a lot quicker to the point where later parts of the game is basically a walk in the park as soon as you get to them. If I wanted to relax with a game, I would play Animal Crossing instead, Pokemon is not the place to coast through the game.
 

Silktree

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Poke Dragon said:
meaning a Pokemon can get to higher levels a lot quicker to the point where later parts of the game is basically a walk in the park as soon as you get to them.
Here's an idea: Don't use candies. They aren't forced upon you like EVs in the traditional games (you can reset those, but still).
 
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I don't dislike the first Generation, and I actually still enjoy playing through the classic games every now and again. Just recently wrapped up a great run of Yellow, and I plan on going back to Red on VC at some point too. But I do think that it's characters and setting have been exhausted.

Going back to Kanto in the Johto games was a pleasant surprise. In HGSS, they went a bit further and brought back parts of the map that were absent in the originals. Cerulean Cave, Seafoam Islands, Viridian Forest, and even little things like the Pewter Museum or that Pokemon Center at the foot of Mt. Moon. That along the game's updated Pokemon availability, post-game trainer rosters and game mechanics and made the world feel appropriately modernized. This is probably my favorite way to experience the Region.

Then of course you have the PWT, a grand gathering of boss battles from across Pokemon's history, Kanto's League included. Like in HGSS, everyone comes with updated teams and surprisingly well thought out strategies. Not to mention stipulations that were previously impossible in their games of origin, like Doubles, Triples, Rotation, and the mono-type challenges. Fighting everyone again in feature this was special, and felt like a fond farewell to the 2D era as a whole.

X&Y is where things get kinda weird. We somehow made our way back to Viridian Forest in the Kalos Region. Then we picked up our Kanto starter from the local Professor. It's pretty cool that they have Mega forms now, but disappointing that they've basically upstaged the newcomers in their own game. Booted Snorlax off of another bridge with the Pokeflute on Route 7. Caught Mewtwo again in a post-game dungeon. And also the Legendary Birds are here, because...They...Had scrapped Megas...? Maybe? And can someone tell me why your first encounter on Route 2 is programmed to always be a Pidgey?

Part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt, and say that these little moments were a way to 'look back' as we headed further into the future...But now here we are! In the future. With a whole game that's just reliving Kanto. All of those little shoutouts come off as excessive in hindsight. And while I'm a-lot more lenient on the 7th Generation in this regard, since they were a set of anniversary games, they've still made me less enthusiastic about doing anything more with the 1st Generation. You're player character is from Kanto, Lillie embarks on a journey to Kanto, we fought Red and Blue again, Team Rocket was thwarted for the 3rd time, etc. etc.

That isn't to say that I'm opposed to another remake...I would've loved to go back in a console level game, if things weren't so samey. The map in Let's Go is that same grid from every other game, instead of a more realized landscape. The Dex is worse than FRLG, which at least let you access Johto's Pokemon and Evolutions in the post-game. The story progression is somehow the same as Red & Blue's adventure, even though it takes place afterwards...?

TLDR; Gen 1 is tired. It's characters and setting have been remade, re-released, referenced, and celebrated across multiple games and systems, to the point where its lost nostalgic value (at least to me). A return to Kanto on consoles isn't a bad idea, but Let's Go plays it disappointingly safe. If they ever want to take us back again, it'd be nice if it were something truly different.
 
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SinnohEevee

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Kanto-pandering = $$$, so I don't see it stopping. Plus, you have Kanto's anniversary that we celebrate every 5 or 10 years.
Also, the kids who started with LGPE will be nostalgic for Kanto in 10 or 20 years.
 
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