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FAQ: POLL: how strong is ash ketchum as a trainer?

This tread is somehow irrelevant to its title.

1) Isn't this a poll? Where is the poll?
2) The thread title is irrelevant to the opening post question. According to the question in the post, obviously every single one will reply Sinnoh. But according to the question in the title, everyone will differ by a bit, as it implies you are comparing Ash to every trainer in the world.

But still, I'll add my two cents.


For the question in the OP:

^ I think said my answer.
Well, currently the XY Ash seems to be almost equivalent to his DP era, so difficult to say for now.


For the question in the title:

Ash is just average of an average trainer, in the same level as every single common civilian on the street, so plain and ordinary where his skills are nothing special and nothing outstanding.

I'm sure many people wanted to argue about this because of his "epic achievements" of so many badges from many regions, winning the Orange League and Battle Frontier, saving so many Legendary Pokemon, even adding the 'fact' that he is an aura user.

May be let me firstly clarify this matter on my POV. From my eyes and opinions, all Ash's achievements are nothing more than a record on one's CV. Having a nice-looking CV with so many achievement yeah may add points to someone by the first sight, but it is in fact not any form of guarantee certifying the current skill level of a person. And moreover, somehow same as the CV, the achievement quality is more important than quantity. Harvard University often don't admit foreign student into its campus even they may have super long list of the nicest academic record you may think of during their high school era, because there are so many things the record could not tell about one's skill.

And moreover IMO, many of the achievements by Ash may somehow be consider as deceptive, as most of them are fraud of DEM.

In terms of in-universe trainer skill IMO, well Ash does have enough skills to beat the gym leaders, but since gym leaders are there to give conquerable challenges to immature trainers, so beating gym leaders are in fact not much of an achievement to be mentioned. As that is the compulsory pilgrimage road walked by every single league challengers.
When the time he faces against trainers that are not gym leaders, especially the higher trainer classes such as elite four, he is always being swiped overwhelmingly. So, he still has a super large gap between the level of elite four.
If I have to concretize his trainer skill level, then at the very best he is just the trainer class of Ace Trainer where at the level one can encounter on the Victory Road (noticeably, they are all having the passion to challenge the league, yet have pokemon weaker than elite four). Or at the worst just a Youngster on the beginning road, maybe even worst as Ash is often too hot-headed at the beginning to listen to the advices from all the seniors and senpai. Interestingly, even the Youngster at the beginning road will receive major level-up and evolve his whole team when you rechallenging him at the point of before league, yet Ash only evolve half of his team before the league......
 
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I have two answers to this.

1.) End of the Johto run. Johto wasn't a fresh start for Ash. He replaced Pokemon on his team as he caught them.
2.) End of the Sinnoh run. That team was his best ever. Dragon type? Yes please.
 
Ash is just average of an average trainer, in the same level as every single common civilian on the street, so plain and ordinary where his skills are nothing special and nothing outstanding.

Objectively wrong. With many achievements under his belt, why is it so hard to believe he's any good? Oh wait he loses the league and anyone who loses the league must automatically suck, especially if they didn't spam items or are Red.

I'm sure many people wanted to argue about this because of his "epic achievements" of so many badges from many regions, winning the Orange League and Battle Frontier, saving so many Legendary Pokemon, even adding the 'fact' that he is an aura user.

Well of course, if you're allowed to state Red is God for doing things any simple minded person can do, why can't I state Ash is actually a good trainer and use legitimate reasons and answers?

May be let me firstly clarify this matter on my POV. From my eyes and opinions, all Ash's achievements are nothing more than a record on one's CV. Having a nice-looking CV with so many achievement yeah may add points to someone by the first sight, but it is in fact not any form of guarantee certifying the current skill level of a person. And moreover, somehow same as the CV, the achievement quality is more important than quantity. Harvard University often don't admit foreign student into its campus even they may have super long list of the nicest academic record you may think of during their high school era, because there are so many things the record could not tell about one's skill.

Trying to apply things from colleges to a show where education is nonexistent is just...I don't even want to bother with this part of your post.


And moreover IMO, many of the achievements by Ash may somehow be consider as deceptive, as most of them are fraud of DEM.

Lmao, this has to be a joke somehow. I can argue Red was a DEM abusing, item spamming fraud but you'd say he's not because he's Red and he's automatically God. Haha, no. You're using the term wrong, DEM would mean to come out of nowhere and sudden, thinking on the fly or training before a certain event doesn't qualifiy as this. DEM is what the Unova League was, Ashs recent wins aren't.

In terms of in-universe trainer skill IMO, well Ash does have enough skills to beat the gym leaders, but since gym leaders are there to give conquerable challenges to immature trainers, so beating gym leaders are in fact not much of an achievement to be mentioned. As that is the compulsory pilgrimage road walked by every single league challengers.
When the time he faces against trainers that are not gym leaders, especially the higher trainer classes such as elite four, he is always being swiped overwhelmingly. So, he still has a super large gap between the level of elite four.

So beating a Tyrunt that knows Draco Meteor and is bigger than most of your current Pokemon and beating a Mega Lucario that literally went berserk a few weeks before the battle is now a lie? And the Leagues are again, very different. You have to compare something like the Pokemon VGCs to sound valid. And by your logic, the guy who gets second place is a loser for not getting first. A smart person is an idiot for not having the Nobel Prize, etc. And I think you should know by now that the E4 are literally written as Gods in the anime, then the Champion reins over all of them.

If I have to concretize his trainer skill level, then at the very best he is just the trainer class of Ace Trainer where at the level one can encounter on the Victory Road (noticeably, they are all having the passion to challenge the league, yet have pokemon weaker than elite four). Or at the worst just a Youngster on the beginning road, maybe even worst as Ash is often too hot-headed at the beginning to listen to the advices from all the seniors and senpai. Interestingly, even the Youngster at the beginning road will receive major level-up and evolve his whole team when you rechallenging him at the point of before league, yet Ash only evolve half of his team before the league......

And now he's giving advice to people like a teacher, oh wait he did this in Hoenn AND Sinnoh AND Kalos. And no, that's clearly BS. The anime and games are DIFFERENT, having fully evolved Pokemon means nothing in the anime, period. After all Mega Lucario is a beast in the games, yet Pikachu, a very weak Pokemon going by the games took it out in the anime. Mega Lucario is essentially a Legendary and yet it still went down. So clearly your argument is fueled by misconception after misconception.
 
I have to agree with @クリスタル;. The title and question seem to imply two totally different questions. My answer is almost the same, as well. DP Ash was clearly his peak and XY Ash doesn't seem to be that far behind.

As it relates to Ash compared to other trainers, just based on what we've seen, it's clear he's nothing out of the ordinary. As I've said before in other threads, Ash is not like other standard Anime protagonists who greatly excel their profession compared to pretty much the majority of people they challenge. Like Gingka in Beyblade Metal Fusion or Yugi in Yu-Gi-Oh who were known for being very skilled and rarely lost to the random people that decided to challenge the throughout the show. Ash, on the other hand, has been virtually reset so many times to the point where he and his presumably Lv94 Pikachu can get their asses kicked by what could be a Lv13 Squirtle or a new trainer's Lv5 Snivy and it almost means nothing to us now. Or till manage to lose to Gym Leaders despite that fact that he should be more than used to the Challenge by now. Sure, he comes back and wins in his own ways, but the fact that he lost in the first place proves he's nothing exceptional. Maybe that's what makes him unique, but despite all the Legendaries he's defeated or the Badges he's earned, he's still, based on what we visually see in the show, not any more special than anyone else in the show. He wins some, he loses some.
 
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Objectively wrong. With many achievements under his belt, why is it so hard to believe he's any good? Oh wait he loses the league and anyone who loses the league must automatically suck, especially if they didn't spam items or are Red.

I'm sure many people wanted to argue about this because of his "epic achievements" of so many badges from many regions, winning the Orange League and Battle Frontier, saving so many Legendary Pokemon, even adding the 'fact' that he is an aura user.

Well of course, if you're allowed to state Red is God for doing things any simple minded person can do, why can't I state Ash is actually a good trainer and use legitimate reasons and answers?

May be let me firstly clarify this matter on my POV. From my eyes and opinions, all Ash's achievements are nothing more than a record on one's CV. Having a nice-looking CV with so many achievement yeah may add points to someone by the first sight, but it is in fact not any form of guarantee certifying the current skill level of a person. And moreover, somehow same as the CV, the achievement quality is more important than quantity. Harvard University often don't admit foreign student into its campus even they may have super long list of the nicest academic record you may think of during their high school era, because there are so many things the record could not tell about one's skill.

Trying to apply things from colleges to a show where education is nonexistent is just...I don't even want to bother with this part of your post.


And moreover IMO, many of the achievements by Ash may somehow be consider as deceptive, as most of them are fraud of DEM.

Lmao, this has to be a joke somehow. I can argue Red was a DEM abusing, item spamming fraud but you'd say he's not because he's Red and he's automatically God. Haha, no. You're using the term wrong, DEM would mean to come out of nowhere and sudden, thinking on the fly or training before a certain event doesn't qualifiy as this. DEM is what the Unova League was, Ashs recent wins aren't.

In terms of in-universe trainer skill IMO, well Ash does have enough skills to beat the gym leaders, but since gym leaders are there to give conquerable challenges to immature trainers, so beating gym leaders are in fact not much of an achievement to be mentioned. As that is the compulsory pilgrimage road walked by every single league challengers.
When the time he faces against trainers that are not gym leaders, especially the higher trainer classes such as elite four, he is always being swiped overwhelmingly. So, he still has a super large gap between the level of elite four.

So beating a Tyrunt that knows Draco Meteor and is bigger than most of your current Pokemon and beating a Mega Lucario that literally went berserk a few weeks before the battle is now a lie? And the Leagues are again, very different. You have to compare something like the Pokemon VGCs to sound valid. And by your logic, the guy who gets second place is a loser for not getting first. A smart person is an idiot for not having the Nobel Prize, etc. And I think you should know by now that the E4 are literally written as Gods in the anime, then the Champion reins over all of them.

If I have to concretize his trainer skill level, then at the very best he is just the trainer class of Ace Trainer where at the level one can encounter on the Victory Road (noticeably, they are all having the passion to challenge the league, yet have pokemon weaker than elite four). Or at the worst just a Youngster on the beginning road, maybe even worst as Ash is often too hot-headed at the beginning to listen to the advices from all the seniors and senpai. Interestingly, even the Youngster at the beginning road will receive major level-up and evolve his whole team when you rechallenging him at the point of before league, yet Ash only evolve half of his team before the league......

And now he's giving advice to people like a teacher, oh wait he did this in Hoenn AND Sinnoh AND Kalos. And no, that's clearly BS. The anime and games are DIFFERENT, having fully evolved Pokemon means nothing in the anime, period. After all Mega Lucario is a beast in the games, yet Pikachu, a very weak Pokemon going by the games took it out in the anime. Mega Lucario is essentially a Legendary and yet it still went down. So clearly your argument is fueled by misconception after misconception.

OK, the Bulbagarden No.1 Ash fanboy is offended by my personal subjective humble opinions. I used many times of "IMO" or "my POV".

Whatever your opinion on Ash is, my opinion will not change. Please note, opinion is subjective, there is nothing objective to begin with. So there is no right or wrong answer. You think Ash is the greatest trainer in the world, fine, but give your remarks and rational logic on that matter to support your statement, don't just defend your thinking by counterattacking my post.

I don't think my logic has any problem, as IMO it is applicable also to the Pokemon World. Do not tell me the Pokemon World has its own logic and could not use the argument and examples of our world for discussion. I've played many fantasy RPG games, watched a lot of fantasy genre TV shows, and also read quite a lot of fantasy novel. The human mind in the fantasy world is still equivalent to the human mind in our world. So even it is a different world having a different moral realm from our world, the story is still written by human of our world, hence it is obvious to consider the human character mind-set in the same mind-set of our world.

Moreover, what is the problem of comparing the anime to the game? Do not forget, the anime was originated from the game, and IMO explain that in the game term is the best comparison to showcase Ash's skill. If there is no comparison, how are you going to know what is the status of the character?

Well, even if not comparing to the game, but only within the anime universe, still Ash is super ordinary in terms of his trainer skill level, as he never win against any of the elite four members. I don't even recall for him challenging any one of the regional champion......
You consider beating down Legendary Pokemon is an epic achievement, but I don't, as in many movies the villains already have the power to take down the Legendaries using one Pokemon. And, beating down the FE and MegaE Pokemon using NE Pokemon in your opinion is epic achievement, but I consider that as fraud of deux ex machina from outside the fourth wall.
From my POV, his overall skill of being a trainer is not to be judge by one single event of saving a Pokemon for one time or defeat a strong Pokemon for one time. I'm looking at the big picture, where in the overall big picture, I see Ash is just an ordinary trainer on the same average level as every single CotD.
 
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Oh wow way to put labels rather than debate the arguement. You said it yourself, these are your opinions, and opinions can be disagreed with. I disagree about your opinions of Ash being average and nothing special, so try and answer my argument instead of playing victim. And I would honestly hardly call your opinions humble in the way you've voiced them.

I acknowledge that your opinion won't change, but I am allowed to disagree and point out why. And I did make actual arguments using examples given through the show that you blatantly ignored and wrote off as nothing at all.

Sigh, Pokemon as a fantasy world can't be compared to other fantasy worlds. And honestly I'm not even going to bother with that as I have nothing I wish to debate on that end.

The games are litterally not a good way to assess Ash's skill level. Look at the different mechanics, there's no levels in the anime, no mid-battle Potion spamming unless you have a Wonder Launcher, Pokemon sizes can grow to all sorts of different ranges, and so on. The games may have been the base of the anime, but the anime is its own thing. It does what it wants, there's no use comparing as both are wildly different.

Okay, he hasn't won against any of the E4 or the Champion. So what? They're portrayed an invincible and very unlikely to be defeated by anyone at all. Who's to say even Tobia's has a chance against any of the Sinnoh E4? He may have a team of Legendaries, but the E4/Champion's power is just too high for him to overcome because of the writing. And Ash has challenged Alder to an unofficial match, same with Diantha.
 
LOL if ash was just a average trainer with no outstanding skills ....then how the hell can he have pokemon like infernape,torterra,sceptile,charizard,staraptor... I mean average trainers with ordinary skills cannot fully evolve their pokemons....
 
Oh wow way to put labels rather than debate the arguement. You said it yourself, these are your opinions, and opinions can be disagreed with. I disagree about your opinions of Ash being average and nothing special, so try and answer my argument instead of playing victim. And I would honestly hardly call your opinions humble in the way you've voiced them.

I acknowledge that your opinion won't change, but I am allowed to disagree and point out why. And I did make actual arguments using examples given through the show that you blatantly ignored and wrote off as nothing at all.

Sigh, Pokemon as a fantasy world can't be compared to other fantasy worlds. And honestly I'm not even going to bother with that as I have nothing I wish to debate on that end.

The games are litterally not a good way to assess Ash's skill level. Look at the different mechanics, there's no levels in the anime, no mid-battle Potion spamming unless you have a Wonder Launcher, Pokemon sizes can grow to all sorts of different ranges, and so on. The games may have been the base of the anime, but the anime is its own thing. It does what it wants, there's no use comparing as both are wildly different.

Well, then same as here, I disagree your opinions of thinking Ash being an extraordinary trainer, because I don't see what is so special about him, especially regarding on his skill of being a trainer.

And of course Pokemon can be compare to other fantasy world, as the very basic literature of this genre means background set in an imaginative fancy world, mostly deal with supernatural elements (but not limited to existence of magics and swordplays and medieval themes). For the fictional fantasy world with settings similar to our nowadays world, such setting tag is also know as contemporary fantasy. Pokemon is under this kind.
As Pokemon is also a form of narrative story, then of course its story structure is bound to the basic narrative literature rules which is also applicable to other fantasy story. Don't ever think Pokemon as a story is so special that it can isolate itself from every other fantasy story. The basics of story structure, and most importantly the characterization structuring is still the same.

But this thread is not for discussion of this kind, so I'll just leave this matter for now, and agree to disagree as I don't wanted to debate against someone that is so inflexible.

Okay, he hasn't won against any of the E4 or the Champion. So what? They're portrayed an invincible and very unlikely to be defeated by anyone at all. Who's to say even Tobia's has a chance against any of the Sinnoh E4? He may have a team of Legendaries, but the E4/Champion's power is just too high for him to overcome because of the writing. And Ash has challenged Alder to an unofficial match, same with Diantha.

OK, so you are also agreeing that Tobias with Legendaries on his hand had no chance against E4/Champion, huh?
Yeah, so obviously, no one expect Ash will win against E4/Champion, as he was defeated by Tobias.

And take in regards of common knowledge of Pokemon fandom that Legendary Pokemon are much more powerful than ordinary Pokemon (Note: this is not game canon, but shared canon setting amongst all medium), than in fact that gap between Tobias and Ash is much greater. Consequentially, Ash has a super great gap between E4/Champion.

Hence, Champion > E4 >>>>>>>>>> Tobias >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ash

......So is Ash Ketchum really such a strong trainer that is significant enough to be consider as "special"?
......Even regardless of his trainer strength, I still don't see what makes him so "special". Especially with the over-interference from outside the fourth wall, writer(s) trying to force him to look extraordinary just oppositely make his so-called extraordinariness feels like fake, and hence oppositely making him look ordinary.

LOL if ash was just a average trainer with no outstanding skills ....then how the hell can he have pokemon like infernape,torterra,sceptile,charizard,staraptor... I mean average trainers with ordinary skills cannot fully evolve their pokemons....

The average trainers of course can fully evolve their Pokemons. There are just so many league challengers and rivals possess more FE Pokemon than Ash have when the time they challenge the league.

Granted, even quite a number of CotD possess large amount of fully evoved Pokemons. Just go and take a look, then you'll just notice FE Pokemon is nothing special.
 
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Well, then same as here, I disagree your opinions of thinking Ash being an extraordinary trainer, because I don't see what is so special about him, especially regarding on his skill of being a trainer.

I don't see why would anyone think he's not special at all. Sure his personality isn't very in depth, I can admit to that, but saying that beating two legendary Pokemon in a row isn't special just doesn't make sense. Applying game logic means nothing at all in an anime that allows much more evolved Pokeon to be beaten with weaker Pokemon.

But this thread is not for discussion of this kind, so I'll just leave this matter for now, and agree to disagree as I don't wanted to debate against someone that is so inflexible.

Ironic that you say I'm the one being inflexible about this.

OK, so you are also agreeing that Tobias with Legendaries on his hand had no chance against E4/Champion, huh?
Yeah, so obviously, no one expect Ash will win against E4/Champion, as he was defeated by Tobias.

I'm just stating that the E4/Champion are written as Gods so it's not likely anyone could beat them logically unless their skill level gets around the same level.
Wrong, there are people who believe eventually he can face up to one of them, but again doesn't matter this early into the XY series and if you try and use DP examples, remember that battling them won't make anyone a Master, it's just a step towards that.

And take in regards of common knowledge of Pokemon fandom that Legendary Pokemon are much more powerful than ordinary Pokemon (Note: this is not game canon, but shared canon setting amongst all medium), than in fact that gap between Tobias and Ash is much greater. Consequentially, Ash has a super great gap between E4/Champion.

Wrong once again, Legendary Pokemon aren't always the end all end all. The gap between Ash and Tobias isn't clear due to the rushed time in the episode. Of course Ash isn't an idiot like you assume as the team he built wasn't just a random assortment. Pikachu for being Pikachu, Sceptile was very useful in the Battle Frontier, Swellow was his second best flier since Staraptor needed to recover, Gible because Dragons are the most powerful type portrayed in the games and anime, Torkoal because he did battle a Registeel, and Heracross for having a difect type advantage over Darkrai. So yeah Ash isn't a total moron like you think.

Hence, Champion > E4 >>>>>>>>>> Tobias >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ash

Wrong, the skill gap is much closer. Watch the battle again.

......So is Ash Ketchum really such a strong trainer that is significant enough to be consider as "special"?
......Even regardless of his trainer strength, I still don't see what makes him so "special". Especially with the over-interference from outside the fourth wall, writer(s) trying to force him to look extraordinary just oppositely make his so-called extraordinariness feels like fake, and hence oppositely making him look ordinary.

Is Red really such a strong trainer that he doesn't spam items or has such an amazing character that is good enough to be considered special? Nope.
Ironic you say that and yet you praise Red for being the exact same thing. Underneath all the over praise, he's just an ordinary kid who only did everything he did because of plot and the need to make him look cool. I'd argue that Red is the one who gets this treatment you're speaking of.


LOL if ash was just a average trainer with no outstanding skills ....then how the hell can he have pokemon like infernape,torterra,sceptile,charizard,staraptor... I mean average trainers with ordinary skills cannot fully evolve their pokemons....

The average trainers of course can fully evolve their Pokemons. There are just so many league challengers and rivals possess more FE Pokemon than Ash have when the time they challenge the league.

Granted, even quite a number of CotD possess large amount of fully evoved Pokemons. Just go and take a look, then you'll just notice FE Pokemon is nothing special.

Did you also know that having fully evolved Pokemon doesn't matter much in anime land? Think about that, this is the same anime that allows Pachirisu to beat Gabite. Having evolved Pokemon isn't equal to skill, because remember Cameron? That guy who had a team of fully evolved Pokemon but was such a moron he actually brought 5 Pokemon to a 6v6? Yeah, doesn't even matter Ash has mostly NFE's, because anime =/= games.
 
Ash average? lol.

The anime and games have there own thing when it comes to trainer skill.

Even Cynthia said Ash will eventually end up in the Champions League. Come on guys .-.
 
Ok i agree that even average trainers do have fully evolved pokemon.......U must have seen ash vs tobias.....ash lost but he was the only one who beat his darkrai and latios.......in the preliminary rounds all the average trainers with "good for nothing " skills ended up losing to his darkrai. All the average trainers were kicked out with darkrai's sleeptalk. The same move was used on ashs sceptile, but it seemed useless. It just took one move to finish off darkrai and pikachu knocking out latios. Analysing ashs all battles till date his level is higher than that of a gymleader. He even won the battlefrontier and orange league.....in my opinion ash is definitely better than many of the ordinary trainers in the anime
 
Not to mention Ash has won the Orange League, beat the Battle Frontier. He was even offered a position to be a Battle Frontier brain.

Ash is definitely above Gym Leader status, Gym leaders are no push overs either.

Remember the episode when Ash entered a Pokemon contest with Dawn and the others? Zoey said to herself the amount of power his Buizel had and how Ash could have easily have beaten her. This is coming from the person who won the Grand Festival.

He even beat that Articuno in the Battle Frontier series. Sure type advantage did help Ash but still...


If we are going by anime logic, not game logic Ash is definitely not average.
 
Ok i agree that even average trainers do have fully evolved pokemon.......U must have seen ash vs tobias.....ash lost but he was the only one who beat his darkrai and latios.......in the preliminary rounds all the average trainers with "good for nothing " skills ended up losing to his darkrai. All the average trainers were kicked out with darkrai's sleeptalk. The same move was used on ashs sceptile, but it seemed useless. It just took one move to finish off darkrai and pikachu knocking out latios. Analysing ashs all battles till date his level is higher than that of a gymleader. He even won the battlefrontier and orange league.....in my opinion ash is definitely better than many of the ordinary trainers in the anime

I kind of disagree that other Trainers have 'good for nothing skills'. They gathered 8 badges, surely they have some skills.

But @クリスタル is completely wrong on Ash being average.

As firejet69 stated, Ash did manage to beat Darkrai and Latios where other who managed to get 8 badges failed to even scratch Darkrai.

I do agree that the Elite 4 is impossible even for Tobias to beat, but to be fair the skill range should be like:
Champion>Elite Four>>>>>Tobias>>Ash

Gym Leaders are actually pretty weak, you seems to think that Gym Battle is only a test, I would have agreed if it was the game, but Anime, NO. There are a few very strong Gym Leaders, but FEW. (Like Volkner, who is shown to be as strong as Elite 4 with his Raichu, who is not used in his Gym Battle; Roxie, who gives advantages to opponents and still thrashed them like nothing)
If you needed any proof, MISTY, go take a look on her (REALLY PERSONAL) battles, especially that one vs GRAVELER, PATHETIC. REALLY PATHETIC. SHE USED HER SPECIALIZED TYPE AND LOST TO A ROCK/GROUND TYPE! SPEAK ABOUT WEAK! This battle Type Advantages actually apply, because they even stated it clearly!

Although Ash used DEM to win against that trainer (I forgot her name), but still, Ash has creativity with that Leer. And there was Counter Shield, Ice Aqua Jet, now we even have Iron Tail deflector. Ash, even if you still think he is an average trainer, is clearly atleast A MORE CREATIVE AVERAGE TRAINER.

And Ash has beaten Battle Frontier and is offered a chance to become a Frontier Brain, that proves he is atleast above average trainers.

But again, one can argue that by reviewing the Misty battle, beating Gym Battles are actually super easy because they are weaklings, that makes the League competitors just above weaklings, and Ash is just an average trainer, who is stronger than weaklings. That is all I can say.
 
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Im actually shocked that people say Ash is average trainer because thats just mind blowing. Ash in his skill levels, perception, knowledge and creativity may have not been on E4 member, champion level. Let alone pokemon master type of class.

However through hard work, lot of passion and effort invested in training his pokemon and huge numer of achievements Ash accomplished over past 17 years he is definitely above average run of a mill trainers. Gym leaders and Frontier Brains. In fact only reason why he even sometime struggle or lose against some mediocre trainers or gyms giving him hard time is primarily because of leaving all pokemon behind relying on newly captured ones which are nowhere near as strong and experienced like older ones are. While Pikachu always go through somesort of nerf caused by TR or legendary pokemon like Zekrom to water down his fighting prowess.

Ash was consistently recognized and respected for his out of boy unorthodox type of strategies and thinking he is capable of applying in battles. Ability to think on fly and completely turn tide of duel in his favor catching older, much more experienced opponents by surpise never expecting to see such use of attack combinations and tactics.

Such as heating ground with Charizard to make Gary Blastoise immobilized and unable to prevent coming close to perform seismic toss. Using Pikachu thunder as barrier against Frontier Brain Lucy Milotic twister using speed of it by accelerating volt tackle increasing damage it could deal.

Using shattered chunk of ice Candice Abomasnow destroyed as skateboard for Chimchar to increase its speed and agility giving him advantage winning battle. Etc, etc.

This was acknowledged by several powerful trainers out there such as Agatha who he delivered unexpected difficulties when battling with Pikachu against Gengar. Frontier Brain Palmer, Volkner , battle palace Tucker whee it was revealed that Ash even formed his own fangroup chasing him down and showing how his name and talent break through in world media netting him certain amount of fame.

Nevertheless it is well known how qualifying for regional pokemon league isn't easy thing to do in slightest with Ash results such as top 16 in Indigo league on first try ot of 250+ competitors, top 8 in Silver Conference, Ever Grande and Vertress, top 4 in Lily Valley conference.
Becoming Orange league champion and conquering Battle Frontier.
Winning several important side competitions and events such as Sumo conference, Extreme pokemon race, both Pokeringers defeating tough competition Hearthome tag battle tournament, Matine Cup, engong ranked high in contests and many others. Connsecutively doing well not just in his main domain( battles) but various other events with which Ash was completely unfamiliarized still making siccessfulk and prominent resuts.

Serves as testament to Ash strength.

He can sometime be absentminded, forgetful(such as ordering Charizard to use phgysical moves vs Brandon Susclops or Pikachu thunder vs ground types like Ecadril) , underestimate opponents losing badly because of that(one of examples from XY series was first battle vs Viola).
Anime bad handing of continuity and intermittent flow of storyline resetting Ash character and having weak connections to previous knopwledge and growth formed before doesnt sometime help either. Doing injustice to Ash character and others around hims which can be applied to bad writing and lack of care from pokemon staff.

However when looking at pokemon series history as whole and in general Ash is above ordinary trainers. Proving to posess characteristics of battler who is well above most of his peers being ahead of his time in innovation and groundbreaking strategies capable of pulling of. Fact how he saw Ho-Oh not just once but three times in his life(something which most people never are privileged to witness)appearing to only exceptional and special kind of trainers and persons was another interesting detail adding to his prowess and talent.

Gym Leaders are actually pretty weak, you seems to think that Gym Battle is only a test, I would have agreed if it was the game, but Anime, NO. There are a few very strong Gym Leaders, but FEW. (Like Volkner, who is shown to be as strong as Elite 4 with his Raichu, who is not used in his Gym Battle)
If you needed any proof, MISTY, go take a look on her (REALLY PERSONAL) battles, especially that one vs GRAVELER, PATHETIC. REALLY PATHETIC. SHE USED HER SPECIALIZED TYPE AND LOST TO A ROCK/GROUND TYPE! SPEAK ABOUT WEAK! This battle Type Advantages actually apply, because they even stated it clearly!

I don't think that example is valid display of Misty or any gym leader skills. Because first of all Misty battled school top student Giselle being needed to take in account how as trainer Misty wasnt as experiienced and powerful as she would become later. We do not know for how long she had Starmie with Staryu showing higher level of battling experience and richer pool of attacks and there was also element of surprise with Misty underestimating her opponent.

Most importantly writers point of "School of Hard Knock!" episode was in teaching important lesson . How type advantage isn't everything and how with better strategy, smarter choice of attacks or pokemon having more experience trainers can win even if their pokemon are in inferior position on paper. Which was evidenced with Misty Starmie defeating Joe Weepinbell, Giselle Graveler beating Starmie and Ash Pikachu overcoming Cubone despite being ground specie.

Something Ash quite often does defeating big number of pokemon and trainers despite having type advantage

I wouldnt say gym leaders are weak, it just happens they have ungrateful job of having to hold back and not battle at full power often when facing challengers in search for badge. When theyre facing veterans or entering tournaments being on road they display usually much bigger power, resiliance and creativity which was quite well depicted with Viola and Grant match at battle Chateau. Misty topping several tournaments or competitions like Princess tournament, Seaking competition, top 8 in Whirl Cup, tamed pokemon out of control Gyarados establishing bond much faster than Dawn did with Mamoswine or Iris with Dragonite etc.

Cilan making top 4 in Junior Cup or top 8 in Don George tournaments. Pryce stopping berserk Red Gyarados from destroying Mahagony town with his Dewgong powerful ice beam which left Ash phased. Etc.

Gym leaders are abover average in my opinion, but weaker than E4, champions, Frontier bRains and ace traners like Paul, Gary(when he was still trainer), Tyson, Harrison, Tobias etc.
It just happens their true potential often isnt accurately displayed in pokemon series with gym battles against ordinary tainers who try to win badge not being true reflect of their skills.
 
Is Red really such a strong trainer that he doesn't spam items or has such an amazing character that is good enough to be considered special? Nope.
Ironic you say that and yet you praise Red for being the exact same thing. Underneath all the over praise, he's just an ordinary kid who only did everything he did because of plot and the need to make him look cool. I'd argue that Red is the one who gets this treatment you're speaking of.

When was the last time I praised about Red? Where is the post I ever said Red is the greatest trainer on the world? Don't put words I never said before into my mouth!!!

If you were talking about I like Origin, that was not the proof of I like Red as a trainer, it was I like Origin the anime as a whole, not just Red alone.
For Origin!Red's skill as being a trainer, I would not say he is the greatest either. At the first gym where he faces against Brock, he was a rookie at that time, just trying to battle using brutal impulse and recklessness same as Ash. If it was not the non-existence of limitation of amount of Pokemon to participate in the battle, which it greatly handicapped the gym leader side, yeah he should had lose immediately. Therefore I would also have to say, that first gym match was an unfair win.

I would not deny and also agreed, that Origin also have its scriptwriting problems. But still Red manages to pull a much better battles in episodes 2~4, much better than what Ash can do. What I meant by "better" is that in later stages he wins by the accumulation of experience and building up his trainer skills, and by strengthen his bonds between Pokemon. Unlike the main anime where many of Ash's wins are not causes by his trainer skills, but DEM of writings.

Despite I did enjoy watching Origin, still I would not say Origin is my ideal Pokemon anime, because it is still far from perfect. From my POV where I had watched so many other animes, none of the Pokemon anime are perfect TBH. (Not just current TV and Origin, but includes movies and specials, even the B2W2 anime trailer. Though, B2W2 trailer is best within the realm of Pokemon anime)

Did you also know that having fully evolved Pokemon doesn't matter much in anime land? Think about that, this is the same anime that allows Pachirisu to beat Gabite. Having evolved Pokemon isn't equal to skill, because remember Cameron? That guy who had a team of fully evolved Pokemon but was such a moron he actually brought 5 Pokemon to a 6v6? Yeah, doesn't even matter Ash has mostly NFE's, because anime =/= games.

Well, alternatively speaking, beating a team of FE and/or Legendary Pokemon merely using a team of NFE Pokemon is surely some epic achievement, something proud to brag about and to be look up by many people.

But, because I don't see Ash doing intensive training that will make his NFE Pokemon so strong which will beat even the FE and/or Legendary Pokemon, and don't forget while other trainers oppositely trained their Pokemon intensively and evolve to a stronger stage in order to compete the Pokemon League or for other battle tournaments. So from my POV it just felt so unrealistic to the point of inconceivable and unconvincing that Ash wins against FE and/or Legendary Pokemon, especially when his wins are not barely win by an inch, but for so many times an easy win where the opponents look like standing there to receive attacks, and defeated just by one single hit.
(Though, the Pokemon anime always made NFE Pokemon win against FE Pokemon even it was not Ash but CotD. So anime in any case is not making any sense from the very start......)

Creative strategies can surely help ones to win even with NFE Pokemon, but Ash is not always that creative, rather he often relies on thoughtless impulse and reckless battle instinct. When looking at him for 16 years, his battle creativeness becomes a minor character traits that eventually fades into obscurity by continuous flanderization which still happens by now.

And if creative strategies is the only thing that needs to guarantee a win, then one could also expected the anime to do a super-farfetched battle of Caterpie win against Arceus using the most creative strategy the writer(s) could thought of. F*ck it, the almighty Alpha One that created the universe also have to bend before the God from fourth wall that wishes victory upon the small maggot, how ridiculous and sarcastically laughable that is......
 
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Gym Leaders are actually pretty weak, you seems to think that Gym Battle is only a test, I would have agreed if it was the game, but Anime, NO. There are a few very strong Gym Leaders, but FEW. (Like Volkner, who is shown to be as strong as Elite 4 with his Raichu, who is not used in his Gym Battle)
If you needed any proof, MISTY, go take a look on her (REALLY PERSONAL) battles, especially that one vs GRAVELER, PATHETIC. REALLY PATHETIC. SHE USED HER SPECIALIZED TYPE AND LOST TO A ROCK/GROUND TYPE! SPEAK ABOUT WEAK! This battle Type Advantages actually apply, because they even stated it clearly!

I don't think that example is valid display of Misty or any gym leader skills. Because first of all Misty battled school top student Giselle being needed to take in account how as trainer Misty wasnt as experiienced and powerful as she would become later. We do not know for how long she had Starmie with Staryu showing higher level of battling experience and richer pool of attacks and there was also element of surprise with Misty underestimating her opponent.

Underestimating anyone is an indication of bad at it. Cynthia, Diantha and the other Elite 4 and Champion that ever appear on the show never underestimate anyone, they stay calm throughout battles, calculating the possibilities and make sure they works

Most importantly writers point of "School of Hard Knock!" episode was in teaching important lesson . How type advantage isn't everything and how with better strategy, smarter choice of attacks or pokemon having more experience trainers can win even if their pokemon are in inferior position on paper. Which was evidenced with Misty Starmie defeating Joe Weepinbell, Giselle Graveler beating Starmie and Ash Pikachu overcoming Cubone despite being ground specie.

She doesn't know her Pokemon. If she can still get her license as Gym Leader I have no comment. That Joe guy, we all know his type, 纸上谈兵 (which means a person who thinks he knows everything but never carried out them before, aka 0 field experience). He lost to Misty, who has a lot of field experience, which is normal.

Losing to Graveler is unforgivable, SHE DOESN'T KNOW her own Pokemon's weakness? She, being a Gym Leader, assumed fought with Starmie alot, don't have a good strategy and can't pick a smarter choice of attack?

I wouldnt say gym leaders are weak, it just happens they have ungrateful job of having to hold back and not battle at full power often when facing challengers in search for badge. When theyre facing veterans or entering tournaments being on road they display usually much bigger power, resiliance and creativity which was quite well depicted with Viola and Grant match at battle Chateau. Misty topping several tournaments or competitions like Princess tournament, Seaking competition, top 8 in Whirl Cup, tamed pokemon out of control Gyarados establishing bond much faster than Dawn did with Mamoswine or Iris with Dragonite etc.

And yet I thought alot of people agree that Iris doesn't deserve any win, despite training as less as Misty (in average), who has 2 Generation of episodes. Iris picked up as many title as Misty in way less episodes.

So Iris is fluke, Misty isn't... Right...? Don't tell me it is because Misty is superior to Ash, Ash never beat Iris too, Ash never beat both of them.

Cilan making top 4 in Junior Cup or top 8 in Don George tournaments. Pryce stopping berserk Red Gyarados from destroying Mahagony town with his Dewgong powerful ice beam which left Ash phased. Etc.

Roxie, Cilan, Pryce, Volkner...... who else? that so far only 4/48 Gym Leaders that proved to be a superior trainer.

Gym leaders are abover average in my opinion, but weaker than E4, champions, Frontier bRains and ace traners like Paul, Gary(when he was still trainer), Tyson, Harrison, Tobias etc.
It just happens their true potential often isnt accurately displayed in pokemon series with gym battles against ordinary tainers who try to win badge not being true reflect of their skills.

Thats why I kinda pick up againts personal business episodes. Most of the Gym Leaders don't have such episode, but when they have, the are often shown to be not that strong, sometimes even being put into pinch by Team Rocket without mechs.
 
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Underestimating anyone is an indication of bad at it. Cynthia, Diantha and the other Elite 4 and Champion that ever appear on the show never underestimate anyone, they stay calm throughout battles, calculating the possibilities and make sure they works

Which is why they are elite trainers setting them apart from rest of people in pokemon world which focus their life on training and battling with pokemon. Champions or E4 members were all at some point inexperienced, arrogant, reckless and overconfident doing mistakes. They achieved such position through hard work, lot of renunciation and learning from mistakes.

No one is born skilled, collected, rational, observant and flexible with wise, smarter apptoach toward battles and opponents taking time to develop.
Underestimating your opponent doesnt mean your bad trainer. It simply means your young, inconsiderate and inexperienced having lot still to learn before reaching bigger heights as trainer.

Not to mention some people are simply arrogant and overconfident by nature being part of that personality to think highly of themselves underestimating others. Which was one of main traits about Gary, but he was anything but weakling of a trainer.

Ash was in his beginning days pretty cocky and selfcentered too. Even nowadays when hes much more mature than before he still sometime does mistake of understimating opponents(like Viola or Sanpei). However difference between good and bad trainer is that former one will acknpwledge his mistakes learning lesson from defeat.

While bad one wont thinking it was just luck.

She doesn't know her Pokemon. If she can still get her license as Gym Leader I have no comment. That Joe guy, we all know his type, 纸上谈兵 (which means a person who thinks he knows everything but never carried out them before, aka 0 field experience). He lost to Misty, who has a lot of field experience, which is normal.

Losing to Graveler is unforgivable, SHE DOESN'T KNOW her own Pokemon's weakness? She, being a Gym Leader, assumed fought with Starmie alot, don't have a good strategy and can't pick a smarter choice of attack?

Im not sure what is so outrageous or surprising in Starmie losing to Graveler? Paul Weavile lost to Ash Staraptor despite having type advantage. Ash Torterra lost to Volkner Electivire. Dawn Mamoswine despite having type advantage lost easily to Dragonite. Etc. etc.

Most importantly several gym leaders who had type advantage vs Ash still lost to his unusual choice of moves and techniques such as Candice Weavile vs Grotle,Tate and Liza Solrock and Lunaton being overpowered by Swellov and Pikachu, Bugsy Spinarak losing to Chikorita which had double weakness etc.

Does that mean they are weak trainers because their pokemon can lose to those who are at disadvantage? Not really with outcome of battles not being determined just by statistic and numbers but luck, choice of attacks, experience, resistance and fighting spirit as well.

Misty didnt made any fatal mistake. If i recall right she commanded Starmie to use water gun against Graveler roll out which was most logical type of attack to use against ground pokemon. However Graveler managed to break through water gun and smashed Starmie core knocking it out from window with intensity of attack. Shocking everyone including Brock who assumed water gun would overpower Graveler.

It just happens Giselle Graveler had more experience and higher resistance allowing him to endure water based techniques and overpower them.

And yet I thought alot of people agree that Iris doesn't deserve any win, despite training as less as Misty (in average), who has 2 Generation of episodes.

So Iris is fluke, Misty isn't... Right...?

Im not going to discuss who deserved certain wins or didn't, thats matter of perception and what you consider to be believable, well paced battle. But ill just say how there were numerous instances and statements where it was mentioned how Iris or Misty trained their pokemon of screen. Which was practice OS were especially known for with most of Ash training happening of screen as well due to anime having different priorities centered more around aventure emotions and personality growth, discivering and resolving poke world mysteries etc). With battles and training often falling in second plan.

Roxie, Cilan, Pryce, Volkner...... who else? that so far only 4/48 Gym Leaders that proved to be a superior trainer.

Naturally not all gym leaders are equally powerful, but based on what they showed when battling battle hardened more experienced trainers or when entering various competitions outside of gym majority of those which got showed werent pushovers displaying more skill, knowledge and ingenuity than your typical average trainers such as Casey, Taylor from pokeringer, Rocky and numerous others.

Most of them brought difficulties to Ash.

Thats why I kinda pick up againts personal business episodes. Most of the Gym Leaders don't have such episode, but when they have, the are often shown to be not that strong, sometimes even being put into pinch by Team Rocket without mechs.

Element of shock and surprise can outrun even most competent, poied and smart trainers or persons. We saw TR bringing May father Norman in pinch with their pokemon through Weezing smokescreen blocking visibility. Putting E4 like Aaron in difficulties catching them of guard, or champions like Diantha when catching Gardevoir in super resistant box.

Does that mean theyre weak and incompetent? No because you can be very smart and skilled and still get outrun and put in pinch by less competent people if unexpected envoronment and strategy is used.

Gym battles were some of Ash hardest and most challenging matches up to this date requiring lot of planning, training and out of box thinking from Ash side to be able to defeat them. Such as against Whitney, Blaine, Fantina, Brawly, Winona etc.

Ash wins against them wasnt just walk through, but genuine reflect of his ingenuity, composure, strength and steadiness not giving up no matter whats thrown at him.
By depreciating gym leaders strength and challenge they delivered through history of Ash long journey, whole Ash succes and craftiness is underestimated as well.
 
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Logically speaking a gabite would rip apart a pachirisu within seconds!!!!
 
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