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Ash is just average of an average trainer, in the same level as every single common civilian on the street, so plain and ordinary where his skills are nothing special and nothing outstanding.
I'm sure many people wanted to argue about this because of his "epic achievements" of so many badges from many regions, winning the Orange League and Battle Frontier, saving so many Legendary Pokemon, even adding the 'fact' that he is an aura user.
May be let me firstly clarify this matter on my POV. From my eyes and opinions, all Ash's achievements are nothing more than a record on one's CV. Having a nice-looking CV with so many achievement yeah may add points to someone by the first sight, but it is in fact not any form of guarantee certifying the current skill level of a person. And moreover, somehow same as the CV, the achievement quality is more important than quantity. Harvard University often don't admit foreign student into its campus even they may have super long list of the nicest academic record you may think of during their high school era, because there are so many things the record could not tell about one's skill.
And moreover IMO, many of the achievements by Ash may somehow be consider as deceptive, as most of them are fraud of DEM.
In terms of in-universe trainer skill IMO, well Ash does have enough skills to beat the gym leaders, but since gym leaders are there to give conquerable challenges to immature trainers, so beating gym leaders are in fact not much of an achievement to be mentioned. As that is the compulsory pilgrimage road walked by every single league challengers.
When the time he faces against trainers that are not gym leaders, especially the higher trainer classes such as elite four, he is always being swiped overwhelmingly. So, he still has a super large gap between the level of elite four.
If I have to concretize his trainer skill level, then at the very best he is just the trainer class of Ace Trainer where at the level one can encounter on the Victory Road (noticeably, they are all having the passion to challenge the league, yet have pokemon weaker than elite four). Or at the worst just a Youngster on the beginning road, maybe even worst as Ash is often too hot-headed at the beginning to listen to the advices from all the seniors and senpai. Interestingly, even the Youngster at the beginning road will receive major level-up and evolve his whole team when you rechallenging him at the point of before league, yet Ash only evolve half of his team before the league......
Objectively wrong. With many achievements under his belt, why is it so hard to believe he's any good? Oh wait he loses the league and anyone who loses the league must automatically suck, especially if they didn't spam items or are Red.
I'm sure many people wanted to argue about this because of his "epic achievements" of so many badges from many regions, winning the Orange League and Battle Frontier, saving so many Legendary Pokemon, even adding the 'fact' that he is an aura user.
Well of course, if you're allowed to state Red is God for doing things any simple minded person can do, why can't I state Ash is actually a good trainer and use legitimate reasons and answers?
May be let me firstly clarify this matter on my POV. From my eyes and opinions, all Ash's achievements are nothing more than a record on one's CV. Having a nice-looking CV with so many achievement yeah may add points to someone by the first sight, but it is in fact not any form of guarantee certifying the current skill level of a person. And moreover, somehow same as the CV, the achievement quality is more important than quantity. Harvard University often don't admit foreign student into its campus even they may have super long list of the nicest academic record you may think of during their high school era, because there are so many things the record could not tell about one's skill.
Trying to apply things from colleges to a show where education is nonexistent is just...I don't even want to bother with this part of your post.
And moreover IMO, many of the achievements by Ash may somehow be consider as deceptive, as most of them are fraud of DEM.
Lmao, this has to be a joke somehow. I can argue Red was a DEM abusing, item spamming fraud but you'd say he's not because he's Red and he's automatically God. Haha, no. You're using the term wrong, DEM would mean to come out of nowhere and sudden, thinking on the fly or training before a certain event doesn't qualifiy as this. DEM is what the Unova League was, Ashs recent wins aren't.
In terms of in-universe trainer skill IMO, well Ash does have enough skills to beat the gym leaders, but since gym leaders are there to give conquerable challenges to immature trainers, so beating gym leaders are in fact not much of an achievement to be mentioned. As that is the compulsory pilgrimage road walked by every single league challengers.
When the time he faces against trainers that are not gym leaders, especially the higher trainer classes such as elite four, he is always being swiped overwhelmingly. So, he still has a super large gap between the level of elite four.
So beating a Tyrunt that knows Draco Meteor and is bigger than most of your current Pokemon and beating a Mega Lucario that literally went berserk a few weeks before the battle is now a lie? And the Leagues are again, very different. You have to compare something like the Pokemon VGCs to sound valid. And by your logic, the guy who gets second place is a loser for not getting first. A smart person is an idiot for not having the Nobel Prize, etc. And I think you should know by now that the E4 are literally written as Gods in the anime, then the Champion reins over all of them.
If I have to concretize his trainer skill level, then at the very best he is just the trainer class of Ace Trainer where at the level one can encounter on the Victory Road (noticeably, they are all having the passion to challenge the league, yet have pokemon weaker than elite four). Or at the worst just a Youngster on the beginning road, maybe even worst as Ash is often too hot-headed at the beginning to listen to the advices from all the seniors and senpai. Interestingly, even the Youngster at the beginning road will receive major level-up and evolve his whole team when you rechallenging him at the point of before league, yet Ash only evolve half of his team before the league......
And now he's giving advice to people like a teacher, oh wait he did this in Hoenn AND Sinnoh AND Kalos. And no, that's clearly BS. The anime and games are DIFFERENT, having fully evolved Pokemon means nothing in the anime, period. After all Mega Lucario is a beast in the games, yet Pikachu, a very weak Pokemon going by the games took it out in the anime. Mega Lucario is essentially a Legendary and yet it still went down. So clearly your argument is fueled by misconception after misconception.
Oh wow way to put labels rather than debate the arguement. You said it yourself, these are your opinions, and opinions can be disagreed with. I disagree about your opinions of Ash being average and nothing special, so try and answer my argument instead of playing victim. And I would honestly hardly call your opinions humble in the way you've voiced them.
I acknowledge that your opinion won't change, but I am allowed to disagree and point out why. And I did make actual arguments using examples given through the show that you blatantly ignored and wrote off as nothing at all.
Sigh, Pokemon as a fantasy world can't be compared to other fantasy worlds. And honestly I'm not even going to bother with that as I have nothing I wish to debate on that end.
The games are litterally not a good way to assess Ash's skill level. Look at the different mechanics, there's no levels in the anime, no mid-battle Potion spamming unless you have a Wonder Launcher, Pokemon sizes can grow to all sorts of different ranges, and so on. The games may have been the base of the anime, but the anime is its own thing. It does what it wants, there's no use comparing as both are wildly different.
Okay, he hasn't won against any of the E4 or the Champion. So what? They're portrayed an invincible and very unlikely to be defeated by anyone at all. Who's to say even Tobia's has a chance against any of the Sinnoh E4? He may have a team of Legendaries, but the E4/Champion's power is just too high for him to overcome because of the writing. And Ash has challenged Alder to an unofficial match, same with Diantha.
LOL if ash was just a average trainer with no outstanding skills ....then how the hell can he have pokemon like infernape,torterra,sceptile,charizard,staraptor... I mean average trainers with ordinary skills cannot fully evolve their pokemons....
Well, then same as here, I disagree your opinions of thinking Ash being an extraordinary trainer, because I don't see what is so special about him, especially regarding on his skill of being a trainer.
But this thread is not for discussion of this kind, so I'll just leave this matter for now, and agree to disagree as I don't wanted to debate against someone that is so inflexible.
OK, so you are also agreeing that Tobias with Legendaries on his hand had no chance against E4/Champion, huh?
Yeah, so obviously, no one expect Ash will win against E4/Champion, as he was defeated by Tobias.
And take in regards of common knowledge of Pokemon fandom that Legendary Pokemon are much more powerful than ordinary Pokemon (Note: this is not game canon, but shared canon setting amongst all medium), than in fact that gap between Tobias and Ash is much greater. Consequentially, Ash has a super great gap between E4/Champion.
Hence, Champion > E4 >>>>>>>>>> Tobias >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ash
......So is Ash Ketchum really such a strong trainer that is significant enough to be consider as "special"?
......Even regardless of his trainer strength, I still don't see what makes him so "special". Especially with the over-interference from outside the fourth wall, writer(s) trying to force him to look extraordinary just oppositely make his so-called extraordinariness feels like fake, and hence oppositely making him look ordinary.
LOL if ash was just a average trainer with no outstanding skills ....then how the hell can he have pokemon like infernape,torterra,sceptile,charizard,staraptor... I mean average trainers with ordinary skills cannot fully evolve their pokemons....
The average trainers of course can fully evolve their Pokemons. There are just so many league challengers and rivals possess more FE Pokemon than Ash have when the time they challenge the league.
Granted, even quite a number of CotD possess large amount of fully evoved Pokemons. Just go and take a look, then you'll just notice FE Pokemon is nothing special.
Ok i agree that even average trainers do have fully evolved pokemon.......U must have seen ash vs tobias.....ash lost but he was the only one who beat his darkrai and latios.......in the preliminary rounds all the average trainers with "good for nothing " skills ended up losing to his darkrai. All the average trainers were kicked out with darkrai's sleeptalk. The same move was used on ashs sceptile, but it seemed useless. It just took one move to finish off darkrai and pikachu knocking out latios. Analysing ashs all battles till date his level is higher than that of a gymleader. He even won the battlefrontier and orange league.....in my opinion ash is definitely better than many of the ordinary trainers in the anime
Gym Leaders are actually pretty weak, you seems to think that Gym Battle is only a test, I would have agreed if it was the game, but Anime, NO. There are a few very strong Gym Leaders, but FEW. (Like Volkner, who is shown to be as strong as Elite 4 with his Raichu, who is not used in his Gym Battle)
If you needed any proof, MISTY, go take a look on her (REALLY PERSONAL) battles, especially that one vs GRAVELER, PATHETIC. REALLY PATHETIC. SHE USED HER SPECIALIZED TYPE AND LOST TO A ROCK/GROUND TYPE! SPEAK ABOUT WEAK! This battle Type Advantages actually apply, because they even stated it clearly!
Is Red really such a strong trainer that he doesn't spam items or has such an amazing character that is good enough to be considered special? Nope.
Ironic you say that and yet you praise Red for being the exact same thing. Underneath all the over praise, he's just an ordinary kid who only did everything he did because of plot and the need to make him look cool. I'd argue that Red is the one who gets this treatment you're speaking of.
Did you also know that having fully evolved Pokemon doesn't matter much in anime land? Think about that, this is the same anime that allows Pachirisu to beat Gabite. Having evolved Pokemon isn't equal to skill, because remember Cameron? That guy who had a team of fully evolved Pokemon but was such a moron he actually brought 5 Pokemon to a 6v6? Yeah, doesn't even matter Ash has mostly NFE's, because anime =/= games.
Gym Leaders are actually pretty weak, you seems to think that Gym Battle is only a test, I would have agreed if it was the game, but Anime, NO. There are a few very strong Gym Leaders, but FEW. (Like Volkner, who is shown to be as strong as Elite 4 with his Raichu, who is not used in his Gym Battle)
If you needed any proof, MISTY, go take a look on her (REALLY PERSONAL) battles, especially that one vs GRAVELER, PATHETIC. REALLY PATHETIC. SHE USED HER SPECIALIZED TYPE AND LOST TO A ROCK/GROUND TYPE! SPEAK ABOUT WEAK! This battle Type Advantages actually apply, because they even stated it clearly!
I don't think that example is valid display of Misty or any gym leader skills. Because first of all Misty battled school top student Giselle being needed to take in account how as trainer Misty wasnt as experiienced and powerful as she would become later. We do not know for how long she had Starmie with Staryu showing higher level of battling experience and richer pool of attacks and there was also element of surprise with Misty underestimating her opponent.
Most importantly writers point of "School of Hard Knock!" episode was in teaching important lesson . How type advantage isn't everything and how with better strategy, smarter choice of attacks or pokemon having more experience trainers can win even if their pokemon are in inferior position on paper. Which was evidenced with Misty Starmie defeating Joe Weepinbell, Giselle Graveler beating Starmie and Ash Pikachu overcoming Cubone despite being ground specie.
I wouldnt say gym leaders are weak, it just happens they have ungrateful job of having to hold back and not battle at full power often when facing challengers in search for badge. When theyre facing veterans or entering tournaments being on road they display usually much bigger power, resiliance and creativity which was quite well depicted with Viola and Grant match at battle Chateau. Misty topping several tournaments or competitions like Princess tournament, Seaking competition, top 8 in Whirl Cup, tamed pokemon out of control Gyarados establishing bond much faster than Dawn did with Mamoswine or Iris with Dragonite etc.
Cilan making top 4 in Junior Cup or top 8 in Don George tournaments. Pryce stopping berserk Red Gyarados from destroying Mahagony town with his Dewgong powerful ice beam which left Ash phased. Etc.
Gym leaders are abover average in my opinion, but weaker than E4, champions, Frontier bRains and ace traners like Paul, Gary(when he was still trainer), Tyson, Harrison, Tobias etc.
It just happens their true potential often isnt accurately displayed in pokemon series with gym battles against ordinary tainers who try to win badge not being true reflect of their skills.
Underestimating anyone is an indication of bad at it. Cynthia, Diantha and the other Elite 4 and Champion that ever appear on the show never underestimate anyone, they stay calm throughout battles, calculating the possibilities and make sure they works
She doesn't know her Pokemon. If she can still get her license as Gym Leader I have no comment. That Joe guy, we all know his type, 纸上谈兵 (which means a person who thinks he knows everything but never carried out them before, aka 0 field experience). He lost to Misty, who has a lot of field experience, which is normal.
Losing to Graveler is unforgivable, SHE DOESN'T KNOW her own Pokemon's weakness? She, being a Gym Leader, assumed fought with Starmie alot, don't have a good strategy and can't pick a smarter choice of attack?
And yet I thought alot of people agree that Iris doesn't deserve any win, despite training as less as Misty (in average), who has 2 Generation of episodes.
So Iris is fluke, Misty isn't... Right...?
Roxie, Cilan, Pryce, Volkner...... who else? that so far only 4/48 Gym Leaders that proved to be a superior trainer.
Thats why I kinda pick up againts personal business episodes. Most of the Gym Leaders don't have such episode, but when they have, the are often shown to be not that strong, sometimes even being put into pinch by Team Rocket without mechs.