FAQ: POLL: how strong is ash ketchum as a trainer?

[Mareepy]

Which is why they are elite trainers setting them apart from rest of people in pokemon world which focus their life on training and battling with pokemon. Champions or E4 members were all at some point inexperienced, arrogant, reckless and overconfident doing mistakes. They achieved such position through hard work, lot of renunciation and learning from mistakes.

No one is born skilled, collected, rational, observant and flexible with wise, smarter apptoach toward battles and opponents taking time to develop.
Underestimating your opponent doesnt mean your bad trainer. It simply means your young, inconsiderate and inexperienced having lot still to learn before reaching bigger heights as trainer.

I Totally Agree with you.

Not to mention some people are simply arrogant and overconfident by nature being part of that personality to think highly of themselves underestimating others. Which was one of main traits about Gary, but he was anything but weakling of a trainer.

Ash was in his beginning days pretty cocky and selfcentered too. Even nowadays when hes much more mature than before he still sometime does mistake of understimating opponents(like Viola or Sanpei). However difference between good and bad trainer is that former one will acknpwledge his mistakes learning lesson from defeat.

While bad one will think it was just luck.

Good Point on there, which is precisely what makes Misty a bad trainer. DID she learn from that mistake? Hardly, you could argue its another soft reset by writers though, who may have forgotten this episode.

Im not sure what is so outrageous or surprising in Starmie losing to Graveler? Paul Weavile lost to Ash Staraptor despite having type advantage. Ash Torterra lost to Volkner Electivire. Dawn Mamoswine despite having type advantage lost easily to Dragonite. Etc. etc.

Most importantly several gym leaders who had type advantage vs Ash still lost to his unusual choice of moves and techniques such as Candice Weavile vs Grotle,Tate and Liza Solrock and Lunaton being overpowered by Swellov and Pikachu, Bugsy Spinarak losing to Chikorita which had double weakness etc.

Does that mean they are weak trainers because their pokemon can lose to those who are at disadvantage? Not really with outcome of battles not being determined just by statistic and numbers but luck, choice of attacks, experience, resistance and fighting spirit as well.

Out of these, I personally think that Paul's Weavile losing out to Staraptor being the only relevant one.

Torterra losing to Volkner's Electivire, I really thought Flint clearly stated that Volkner is no average Trainer. I am not surprised that he can win that one.

Dawn is not a competitive battler, she evolved Mamoswine from Piloswine, we all know how many serious battles that doesn't involve combination attacks and all sparkle stuff he is in. Do you remember that Dragonite doesn't listen to Iris and battle on his own? He has his own tactics and it works out. This proves the Dragonite have an unknown number of battle experience and is able to carry strategies out.

Im not going to discuss who deserved certain wins or didn't, thats matter of perception and what you consider to be believable, well paced battle. But ill just say how there were numerous instances and statements where it was mentioned how Iris or Misty trained their pokemon of screen. Which was practice OS were especially known for with most of Ash training happening of screen as well due to anime having different priorities centered more around aventure emotions and personality growth, discivering and resolving poke world mysteries etc). With battles and training often falling in second plan.

You made me question myself where did my Iris hate come from. Yeah, both of them didn't train onscreen alot, which is because the writers would write everything else before writing a training episode. Off screen training justifies Misty's wins? If it apply on Misty, it should apply on Iris as well.

Naturally not all gym leaders are equally powerful, but based on what they showed when battling battle hardened more experienced trainers or when entering various competitions outside of gym majority of those which got showed werent pushovers displaying more skill, knowledge and ingenuity than your typical average trainers such as Casey, Taylor from pokeringer, Rocky and numerous others.

Most of them brought difficulties to Ash.

I agree with a few of those examples, but a lot of times, Ash is just challenging his first few Gym of the Region, having Pikachu and 1 or 2 NFE Pokemon while facing troubles in Gym Battle. And then there is some Gym Leaders losing out not to Ash's creativity when Ash is in pinch, but simply impulse.

Element of shock and surprise can outrun even most competent, poied and smart trainers or persons. We saw TR bringing May father Norman in pinch with their pokemon through Weezing smokescreen blocking visibility. Putting E4 like Aaron in difficulties catching them of guard, or champions like Diantha when catching Gardevoir in super resistant box.

Does that mean theyre weak and incompetent? No because you can be very smart and skilled and still get outrun and put in pinch by less competent people if unexpected envoronment and strategy is used.

The show has shown that TR's technology is no let down, the laser nets and sorts actually works and is immune to Pokemon attacks like a lot of times. Aaron and Diantha simply caught by the element of surprise and, remember, THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE IN SUCH TECHNOLOGY, LET ALONE KNOWING THE WEAKNESS OF THE TECHNOLOGY. Ash also have no idea, so majority of the time, Ash used an outside attack or the Pokemon inside simply blindly full power hit, and then got lucky that it works. Its not like they are incompetent, they can't figure anything out because they have no knowledge of it, therefore no pre-thought strategy. On the other hand, I think if its vs Pokemon and not Technology, Aaron and Diantha will crush everyone on their path. And I also think the next time the meet such super resistance boxes, they will stroll through it because the already know how to deal with it.

Smokescreen is a Pokemon move, having no counter to a Pokemon move once again proves that the Gym Leader is weak.

Gym battles were some of Ash hardest and most challenging matches up to this date requiring lot of planning, training and out of box thinking from Ash side to be able to defeat them. Such as against Whitney, Blaine, Fantina, Brawly, Winona etc.

Ash wins against them wasnt just walk through, but genuine reflect of his ingenuity, composure, strength and steadiness not giving up no matter whats thrown at him.
By depreciating gym leaders strength and challenge they delivered through history of Ash long journey, whole Ash succes and craftiness is underestimated as well.

I kind of disagree that other Trainers have 'good for nothing skills'. They gathered 8 badges, surely they have some skills.

But again, one can argue that by reviewing the Misty battle, beating Gym Battles are actually super easy because they are weaklings, that makes the League competitors just above weaklings, and Ash is just an average trainer, who is stronger than weaklings. That is all I can say.

I did clarify that underestimating Gym Leaders also undermines Ash's success.

I think Ash is an above average trainer, even a good one. But Gym Leaders aren't that strong, really. They are, alot of times just another average trainer.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Good Point on there, which is precisely what makes Misty a bad trainer. DID she learn from that mistake? Hardly, you could argue its another soft reset by writers though, who may have forgotten this episode.

But thing is Misty didn't made any mistake. Graveler is rock, ground type having 2X weakness against water pokemon attacks. Any smart trainer would use water based techniques against such pokemon. How she could know that Giselle Graveler would be so resistant to not only endure but slice through water gun knocking Starmie out?

And she did learned from that battle humbly accepting defeat and being crushed not accusing Giselle how battle was fluke or cheat. Knowing how type advantage doesnt necessarily mean your guaranteed to win.
I think fact that Misty was able to defeat Ash or putting him in pinch in most skirmish(such as Bulbasaur being on last legs when facing Poliwhirl in battle for Totodile)proves she isnt pushover. One of best example is when facing Molly mirage pokemon which because of Unown powers were powered up multiple times but her Staryu breaked free from Mantine Whirlpool and bubblebeam being equal in strength with Molly pokemon despite being double stronger than it should be.

Out of these, I personally think that Paul's Weavile losing out to Staraptor being the only relevant one.

Torterra losing to Volkner's Electivire, I really thought Flint clearly stated that Volkner is no average Trainer. I am not surprised that he can win that one.

Dawn is not a competitive battler, she evolved Mamoswine from Piloswine, we all know how many serious battles that doesn't involve combination attacks and all sparkle stuff he is in. Do you remember that Dragonite doesn't listen to Iris and battle on his own? He has his own tactics and it works out. This proves the Dragonite have an unknown number of battle experience and is able to carry strategies out.

I think each of this examples are releavant ones. Because it proves how pokemon having type advantage only gives to its trainer statistical predominance. But in practice situation is alot more different with numbers not meaning much, but more so how smart, innovative and spirited trainer is. At what level his perception and properly asessing situations is and if his pokemon when in inferior position have adequate defense and neutralizing techniques whch would help stop attacks which are 2X more effective in case of being at advantage. Or whether his/her pokemon are trained enough to be able to resist to moves which hurt them more because of type weakness.

We saw this plenty of times with gym leaders being able to defeat pokemon when they were at disadvantage. Like Roark Onix knocking Paul Azumarill, Chuck Poliwrath defeating Ash Pikachu, Falkner Pidgeot doing same etc.

Ash wins against Trip Serperior with Pikachu, Gary Blastoise or Golem with Charizard, Snorlax defeating Frontier Brain Greta Hariyama and Medichan,Oshawott vs Cilan Pansage, Pikachu vs Roxanne Geodude etc all serve as testament to that. Proving how despite type disadvantage Ash was able to win many battles through better planning ahead and using unpredictable moves confusing opponent.

You made me question myself where did my Iris hate come from. Yeah, both of them didn't train onscreen alot, which is because the writers would write everything else before writing a training episode. Off screen training justifies Misty's wins? If it apply on Misty, it should apply on Iris as well.

If there exists mentions of characters training of screen with Misty or Iris themselves admitting it or someone else bringing it up, that doesn't erase fact how they worked hard in making their pokemon stroger(for example Misty mentioned to Sakura after Whirl Cup how thanks to intense training of Corsola she caught before tournament she was able to reach quarterfinals).

Making their wins justified either because of hard work or lot of persistence and dedication in thinking on fly when developing effective strategy which would bring them upper hand in match.

It just happens writers didn't bothered to show this work on screen using easy way of just making it mentioned.

I agree with a few of those examples, but a lot of times, Ash is just challenging his first few Gym of the Region, having Pikachu and 1 or 2 NFE Pokemon while facing troubles in Gym Battle. And then there is some Gym Leaders losing out not to Ash's creativity when Ash is in pinch, but simply impulse.

Call that inconsistent writing or simple fact of not all gym leaders having equal standards when testing out trainers. Some wil not care if rookie or mediocre trainer challenge them still going harder on that opponent pokemon than others. One of most memorable examples was lt. Surge poutting trainers pokemon in hospital.

While some gym leaders are going to lower their strength, use weaker pokemon or more simple strastegy to give fair chance to chgallenger in effort of winning badge. While Ash is veteran trainer if gym leader isn't aware of his previous record or see him using just newly caught barely trained pokemon logic implies they wouldn't send their best pokemon or use best attacks on battlefield.

The show has shown that TR's technology is no let down, the laser nets and sorts actually works and is immune to Pokemon attacks like a lot of times. Aaron and Diantha simply caught by the element of surprise and, remember, THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE IN SUCH TECHNOLOGY, LET ALONE KNOWING THE WEAKNESS OF THE TECHNOLOGY. Ash also have no idea, so majority of the time, Ash used an outside attack or the Pokemon inside simply blindly full power hit, and then got lucky that it works. Its not like they are incompetent, they can't figure anything out because they have no knowledge of it, therefore no pre-thought strategy. On the other hand, I think if its vs Pokemon and not Technology, Aaron and Diantha will crush everyone on their path. And I also think the next time the meet such super resistance boxes, they will stroll through it because the already know how to deal with it.

But if those elite trainers didn't know how to deal with TR technology when endangering to catch their pokemon making them struggle due to not being familiar with how this gadgets and machines wirk. Than same argument can be applied to gym leaders when struggling against TR machines. We cant justify only some but all trainers failures when not knowing how to find way to overcome TR machines.

Smokescreen is a Pokemon move, having no counter to a Pokemon move once again proves that the Gym Leader is weak.

Norman wasn't weak. His son Max even suggested how Norman might be able to become E4 member one day in case he decides to leave gym and try to reach higher position as pokemon trainer. He was simply caught by surprise due to Jessie and James ambush strategy with his pokemon not having adequate tehniques to scatter smog from Weezing.

I think fact that Norman was one of toughest gym battles Ash experienced in Hoenn defeating him in first battle and Ash winning in second encounter only by a inch with Growyle barely standing proves this gym leader was no slouch. Forcing Ash to intensively train and adapt to his battle style to be able to win.

I think Ash is an above average trainer, even a good one. But Gym Leaders aren't that strong, really. They are, alot of times just another average trainer.

I still wouldn't say theyre average. Theyre definitely better than your typical run of a mill trainer because sole precondition to even have right to be gym leader is in having lot of knowledge, adaptability to react properly to stressful and unexpected situations, using creative plans to fix problems and posessing high level of skill. As evidenced with inspector Joy when Mist passed test in preventing gym from shutting down when sisters went on world cruise having to put on hold her dreams of becoming water master taming Gyarados or when Brock younger brother Forest earned right to be Pewter gym leader.

Obviously gym leaders aren't super strong high class trainers like some of battlers at higher positions are(such as E4, Champions, type masters or caliber like Paul) and their position can at times lead to stagnation with some like Volkner and Blaine complaining of being tired of facing weak trainers not being able to learn anything new improving that way. However most gym leaders are not bottom of barrel either being somewhere above average giving to Ash alot more hard time than not.

Testing his attainment, creativity and bond he has with his pokemon working like team.

 

[Duosion]

If we comparehim with real-world pros, he doesnt stand a chance since stats doesnt exist in the anime, so he has no way of knowing which pokemon are stronger than others.

If we compare him to in-universe trainers like Stephan and Paul, he seem to be pretty top procentage, being able to craft strategies before battles, and generally dealing with Type advantage really well, all things considered. Only issue is that e4 are blatently OP in the anime, and their pokemon are super powerful for no explained reason.

 

[Sakuraa]

I honestly don't think Ash is anything special either. If anything he's average or maybe slightly above average.

With all of Ash's "years" of experience he still struggles and outright loses in battles from time to time. Hell, in the beginning of XY he lost to Viola using the ice field strategy that he's see and fought on several times before. And do I even need to explain the mess that was the Elesa battle? Or Cameron's battle? Ash has been, imo, on par with a majority of his opponents if not below them in terms of strength. Example, I found Ash to be about equal in power to his Hoenn rivals while he was obviously shown to be below Paul and Trip for a majority of their sagas. Ash may be pretty damn creative at creating his own unique flair to win certain battles, but so are other trainers. So overall I really don't view Ash as anything amazing.

 

[PrettyVenomoth]

Ash is a GOOD trainer below that top tier bracket and well below Elite four bracket

 

[Steel_Justice]

It depends on which region were talking about

Kanto: Newbie; makes dumb mistakes, wins many battles at first through luck but makes progress at the end. But we've all been there before so it's alright.
Orange Islands: Better than kanto since he's learned from his mistakes and is learning more on how to properly raise strong Pokemon.
Johto: Better than Orange Islands, he's now using his head more often and is raising different kinds of Pokemon with different issues to be strong.
Hoenn/Battle Frontier: Definitely at his peak he usually has a well thought out plan when going into battle and makes far less stupid mistakes than he use to.
Sinnoh: Competence went down quite a lot. He doesn't use his head as often and is easily goaded into acting recklessly especially if he's battling Paul. A bit better than Kanto imo.
Unova: I have more trainer skills in my small toe than Ash does in his whole being. Loosing to a newbie will do that to you.
Kalos: Better than Unova which isn't saying much. Probably around his Sinnoh self, let's hope he improves like he did in that generation.

I'd say overall he's an average trainer except for 3rd gen where he's definitely a skilled trainer. Though ultimately his skill level is what the plot demands so he can be good in one episode/season to getting outdone by new trainers and wild pokemon.

 

[CrystaI]

Recently when I look into Ash's gym battle records, I'd notice just one thing about his training attitude towards his Pokemon.

He always go train his Pokemon only like after losing a match with someone else, or seeing the interesting battle strategies of someone else so trying to have his Pokemon imitating the others. Almost for every single gym battles (and also other important battles), he never do any sort of advance preparation, just simply barge in and challenge the gym leaders immediately without much thinking.

So it went out that his decision of training Pokemon is either esprit de l'escalier of losing, or passive stimulation by other nearby people. I just don't see a situation where Ash goes take initiative of calling his Pokemon to do intensive training without reminding by his companions or someone else (Or rather, I personally haven't seen such situation yet, because I skipped quite a lot of episodes since AG). And for a few times, he abandon his Pokemon training when he saw some other things that interested him.

As Ash being so passive towards training his own Pokemon, other trainers even many CotD are on the opposite actively go train their own Pokemon, they don't need to be prompt by other people about trainings, they just take the initiative on their own. So it makes me wonder, if he doesn't have any companions, will he become more lazy on training? Or rather the situation is opposite, is that because he has companions taking care of him, it makes him depends on others' benevolence.

And hence, that's why I don't see Ash as a strong trainer, because he is not taking enough effort to train his Pokemon when many others are doing their best they can every single day. Of course I don't mean he is taking no effort at all, but when compare to many other trainers, it just seems Ash doesn't devote enough in training his Pokemon. His "achievements" doesn't justify his strength IMO, because I'm not looking at the result, but rather on how he achieved his result.

And for the same reason, that's why I see Ash's strength as being a trainer is deceitful. What makes him so strong that he can even defeat Legendary Pokemon when he didn't train his Pokemon intensively enough when compare to many others? Sometimes he may come up with creative strategies, but so as other trainers. And I don't buy the idea of he was born with excellent innate talent, because from what I saw, his level of talent is nothing different from many other average trainers, or maybe it is worse because he always learn something only after making mistake, or only in a passive way when someone told him about it, he doesn't take initiative to learn. On top of that, his thoughtless impulsiveness where getting emotional too easily makes him rather unsuitable to be a trainer from my personal opinion.

 

[Darthbane2007]

Without Misty and Brock, I'll bet Ash would have never made it to the pokemon league....

 

[Jersey Jimmy]

Ash is... pretty goddamn good. But he isn't the greatest trainer in the world, no. He's to Pokemon training what the San Jose Sharks are to hockey, or the Atlanta Hawks are/soon to be were to basketball. Generally really, really good, but chokes in crunch time. He has never finished below the Top 16 in a league tournament, which when you consider upwards of 400 trainers enter each one, is pretty damn good. He beat the Orange Islands champion and owned the Battle Frontier. And that's without mentioning his bond with his Pokemon... think about it. Charizard might as well be a legendary, considering he beat one, basically his entire Sinnoh team defined the Badass Crew trope (and if Frogadier evolves into Greninja and Fletchinder evolves into Talonflame, so will his Kalos team), he's got other pretty tough mons such as Sceptile, Kingler, Glalie, Torkoal, Unfezant, Snorlax, Heracross, Krookodile, a SHINY FUCKING NOCTOWL... who am I forgetting? Oh yeah, GOD- er, I mean, PIKACHU. The day that thing evolves into Raichu is the day we're all fucked.

 

[overlordreubs]

Quite strong, if you ask me. Although quite can be a strong word... Lemme explain...

Ash has caught several super-strong Pokemon and even some Psuedo-Legends, but he never seems to utilise their full power. He is good at catching those Pokemon and raising them, but isn't very good at getting the best out of them. He doesn't have a strategy or a tactic in most cases, which can lead to his downfall; Ash only seems to think what's 2 seconds ahead instead of looking at the big picture.

Is Ash strong?

Yes, because he is determined and knows how to make a balanced team.

No, because he is not very strategical and doesn't really care about moves that his team learns A̶N̶D̶ ̶H̶E̶ ̶S̶T̶I̶L̶L̶ ̶W̶O̶N̶'̶T̶ ̶E̶V̶O̶L̶V̶E̶ ̶P̶I̶K̶A̶C̶H̶U̶

That's my opinion anyway!

 

[Osprey]

I'd say his strength and competence as a trainer is in constant flux. People cite certain episodes or arcs as examples of his commendable skill, yet those examples are usually followed (sometimes immediately) by a glorious display of incompetence. One episode, he'll be all clever and smart with some random fight with a CotD, and the next episode he'll be flailing about as he forgets basic type matchups that your average seven-year-old could memorize (don't say they can't, I speak from first-hand experience).

On a broader scale, take a look at what happened between the Sinnoh and Unova arcs: in the former, he retained skill, had a strong team (with several members in the final forms, no less), and made it very far in the final tournament and was only beaten by some diabolus-ex-machina that used a freaking Darkrai, a Pokemon that's recognized as overpowered even in the video games. In the latter... ugh. I think Pikachu's electric powers weren't the only thing to take a hard reset, because Ash reverted to an incompetent, inexperienced noob.

So, I have no idea what to make of his power level. It keeps changing inexplicably, going straight from high-ranking tourney participant to losing to a new trainer's Snivy, or something a lot like that. At present in Kalos, he seems to average out into "decently good." Who knows about what that'll turn into later, though... I've already bet all my money that he won't win the league this time around either.

 

[Yankees4life]

AG Ash definitely. He won the BF and could've gotten the position to be a Frontier Brain but declined. That to me is the strongest Ash we got. Honorable mention might be OS Ash near the end (Orange Islans/Johto). I don't remember him losing a gym battle in that saga either. Sounds strong to me

 

[Darthbane2007]

I know one thing; I'm surprised his Kanto self even managed to make it to the pokemon league in the first place...

 

[Natu? Natu!]

BlackOsprey: I agree. I think that what people tend to forget is that the anime isn't always very logical. I think one reason for the striking inconsistency when it comes to Ash's battling skill (i.e., beating the Battle Pyramid yet losing to a level 5 Snivy after that) is that the anime, despite what some have assumed earlier in this thread, isn't very logically consistent in itself (e.g., Ash's age). From one perspe3ctive, I think it would be psosible to argue that Ash is potentially strong, in that he trusts his Pokémon and vice versa, and that he has a certain tendency to think outside the box, sometimes coming up with creative and inventuive battling styles. On the other hand, he is weaker than he could be, as he constantly fails to learn from mistakes (he may learn from mistakes within a story arc, but a couple of episodes later he may very well make the same mistake or a similar mistake again) and that he sometimes is a bit too rash and impulsive, not coming up with strategies. If he had learned from experience, he would have been much stronger. Having said that, of course, it can be argued that he has defeated some really strong opponents, so simply saying that he is weak or nothing special is not completely accurate. After all, he always gets farther than a majority of the contestants in the various Pokémon leagues, he has beaten the Kanto Battle Frontier and the Battle Pyramid, and most trainers wouldn't do that. He has a fairly high level when he is at his best, and a surprisinlgy low level when he is at his worst, and from an in-universe perspective I think this has a lot to do with his impulsivity and lack of planning. From an 'outside' perspective, I think that the anime creators make sure that he doesn't constantly improve, as they use the anime as a way to recruit new people to the franchise. If he had constantly improved his theoretical skill level, at this point he would probably be calculating EVs and IVs and that would be too difficult for newcomers. That's why they make him forget about type matchings etc., over and over again.

 

[Jersey Jimmy]

AG Ash definitely. He won the BF and could've gotten the position to be a Frontier Brain but declined. That to me is the strongest Ash we got. Honorable mention might be OS Ash near the end (Orange Islans/Johto). I don't remember him losing a gym battle in that saga either. Sounds strong to me

He lost to Whitney, but let's be fair: everyone did.

 

[Yankees4life]

AG Ash definitely. He won the BF and could've gotten the position to be a Frontier Brain but declined. That to me is the strongest Ash we got. Honorable mention might be OS Ash near the end (Orange Islans/Johto). I don't remember him losing a gym battle in that saga either. Sounds strong to me

He lost to Whitney, but let's be fair: everyone did.

Oh yea, I forgot

 

[Boots2@sses]

Ash's strength as a trainer varies from saga to saga, if we go by his peak form(which in my opinion was in SL)then i'd say he is around the level of a solid frontier brain like brandon or palmer but i think xy ash will even surpass that judging by how he is doing in kalos i wouldn't be surprised if he managed to beat elite four members by the end of this saga.

 

[sc190191]

If Ash had a memory he would be an amazing trainer.