Possible Gen I Compatibility Issues?

[Joshawott]

As everyone knows by now, the global announcement of the seventh generation games Sun/Moon included the rather surprising announcement that by utilising Bank, the new games will be compatible with the recently released Virtual Console editions of the classic Red/Green/Blue/Yellow. However, the data structure of the games and how certain values are determined has changed radically over the past twenty years, so I was wondering on what your thoughts are in regards to how this compatibility will be handled, as well as whether the implementation could prevent Virtual Console re-releases of Gold/Silver/Crystal?

IVs and The Special Stat:
Back in ye days of olde, the IV range of a Pokémon's stats were a mere 0-15 compared to today's cap of 31. It's possible that these IVs could be left intact and older species forever be nerfed, or Bank could hypothetically double these values for transfer to Sun/Moon - which will make odd-numbered IVs and the coveted 31 impossible, but could still give them a fighting chance.

For the initial transfer, the Special stat will likely be split in the same way it was for the Generation II games; with the Special Attack and Special Defence stats sharing the same IV and EVs. A potential issue could arise however, is EVs. Since Ruby/Sapphire, an Effort Value cap has been placed on Pokémon preventing them from receiving any more than 510 EVs across all stats, but before then a trainer could achieve the maximum 255 points in all stats. I can't see Sun/Moon changing the data structure to make that possible again (at least I hope not), so could we see the transfer process completely wipe EVs before calculating the new stats?

Personality Values and Generation II:
With Generation III's introduction of personality values to determine aspects such as gender and shininess it's likely that a Generation I Pokémon could simply be assigned these during transfer, unlike in Generation II where those values were determined by IVs. If these latest Virtual Console ports were to be followed up by a release of Gold/Silver/Crystal, could that aspect of those games prevent a re-release? Unless Bank is able to identify the parameters for gender and shininess, then assign the correct personality values to that specific Pokémon.

Mew and Other Glitches
Various players have confirmed that the Mew glitch is alive and kicking in the Generation I games, so could compatibility with Sun/Moon severely reduce the value of the first Mythical Pokémon? However, if I remember correctly, one of the Stadium games (I can't remember which) would actually display where a Pokémon was caught; if that worked with Generation I, could Game Freak programme Bank to only allow Mew to be transferred if they were caught in certain locations or had other specific characteristics such as Trainer OT/ID? I imagine Pokémon levelled to be over 100 due to a number of glitches will likely simply revert, as was the case with the Stadium titles too.

What do you think about these possible? Could these be overcome, or could aspects inhibit us moving forwards?

 

[TouyaShiro]

A dedicated topic! Very nice. I'll start us off by addressing what I think will happen with Bank implementation.

I'd imagine the Mew glitch will be subject to the hackmon treatment, running by the same standards as other Pokémon checks in Bank and Poké Transporter. At least, that's what I assume they'll do, with the appropriate event Mew being whitelisted. As for the stats, I think they'll do a system wipe - or do it so that the existing IVs may double, then increase at random by 1.

As I typed this up, I also thought of this possibility. Maybe the Pokémon in the VC remakes, as crazy as this might sound, are saved with all the data generated within the save itself, and it just uses that data once the transfer is initiated - thus, the Pokémon retains its species, the OT, and the moves while the rest of the data reveals itself.

Regardless of how they go about it, we should get a good idea on how it goes when these stats are able to be observed properly in both games under the usual calculations.

 

[Master Cyrus]

Perhaps they're getting rid of EVs and IVs or going back to the old system.

 

[Dorothy]

Perhaps they're getting rid of EVs and IVs or going back to the old system.

That would be a horrible regression. I hope that's not what they're intending, although I strongly doubt it is.

 

[Glaceon Mage]

Perhaps they're getting rid of EVs and IVs or going back to the old system.

This would quite possibly be the worst decision I've ever seen. So much was added from Gens 2 through 6 that discarding that would be an utter waste.

 

[Mitchman]

I think there will be a Retro Facility for gen 1 battles. Trade over your Pokemon, and battle gen 1 style for nostalgia's sake. That or they literally built in the gen 1 IV/EV system and have a Retro Style option. No natures or abilities, just status hax. Would be a a crazy thing to see how later Pokemon and moves work.

 

[JOESTAR*]

I think there will be a Retro Facility for gen 1 battles. Trade over your Pokemon, and battle gen 1 style for nostalgia's sake. That or they literally built in the gen 1 IV/EV system and have a Retro Style option. No natures or abilities, just status hax. Would be a a crazy thing to see how later Pokemon and moves work.

Now this sounds like a really cool idea. A retro style would be really fun. A section for retro online battles would be great too.

 

[Cute Charm]

Like I said before in the other glitch concerns thread. There is evidence that they edited the ROMs. Even if they're just minor edits, it still shows that they were in there messing around. I'm still standing by my assumption that they put in some kind of markers to keep at least the glitches from being traded over. Another idea is they could be basing the gender, natures, and characteristics of an RNG. Like once it's traded over to Pokemon Bank, Bank does all the calculating and giving the pokemon an overhaul. One sex species or genderless species have markers making them bypass this step.

Considering it took this long to come up with a way to transfer Game Boy and GBC era pokemon over to the DS and 3DS eras, I'm sure they managed to cover all the bases and concerns about the difference in programming. Besides, it's not like they're going to be directly beamed to SM they still have to go through Pokemon Bank to get there so it's definitely going to act like a firewall of sorts and only let legit pokemon through as well as where the stats are going to be decided.

 

[-Luster Purge-]

Have they confirmed that gen 3-6 pokemon will transfer to Sun and Moon? Between the gen 1 transfer and the suggestion that Go pokemon will be able to transfer and interviews in the past suggesting that GF wants to simplify things.. Im weary of pokemon going backwards and neglecting the metagame and competitive crowd. However if gen 3-6 are a go.. I would assume Sun and Moons RNG would just fill in the missing data on RBY pokemon.

 

[The Outrage]

IVs and The Special Stat:
Back in ye days of olde, the IV range of a Pokémon's stats were a mere 0-15 compared to today's cap of 31. It's possible that these IVs could be left intact and older species forever be nerfed, or Bank could hypothetically double these values for transfer to Sun/Moon - which will make odd-numbered IVs and the coveted 31 impossible, but could still give them a fighting chance.

I've posted this in another thread where PokeBank would randomly assign new IV values based on the Pokemon's currently existing value:

0: 0-1, 1: 2 - 3, 3: 4 - 5, 4: 6 - 7...

I'm not writing out the whole thing again, but you get the gist of it. When I initially did the full set (and someone corrected me for my error), the random assignment between two IV values accounted for all possible Gen III-onward IVs.

For the initial transfer, the Special stat will likely be split in the same way it was for the Generation II games; with the Special Attack and Special Defence stats sharing the same IV and EVs. A potential issue could arise however, is EVs. Since Ruby/Sapphire, an Effort Value cap has been placed on Pokémon preventing them from receiving any more than 510 EVs across all stats, but before then a trainer could achieve the maximum 255 points in all stats. I can't see Sun/Moon changing the data structure to make that possible again (at least I hope not), so could we see the transfer process completely wipe EVs before calculating the new stats?

Simple solution--since Gen III, we've been able to reduce our EVs with berries. Pokebank can create a rule that all Pokemon has their EVs reduced to 0.

Personality Values and Generation II:
With Generation III's introduction of personality values to determine aspects such as gender and shininess it's likely that a Generation I Pokémon could simply be assigned these during transfer, unlike in Generation II where those values were determined by IVs. If these latest Virtual Console ports were to be followed up by a release of Gold/Silver/Crystal, could that aspect of those games prevent a re-release? Unless Bank is able to identify the parameters for gender and shininess, then assign the correct personality values to that specific Pokémon.

I think that GSC will be ported eventually, and the way I think it would be this:

Step 1: Pokebank reads the corresponding Gen II values for shininess and gender
Ste 2: Pokebank generates personality values that will maintain the Pokemon's shininess and gender
Step 3: After assigning the appropriate personality values, Pokebank will randomly reassign IVs based on the rule set I mentioned above (i.e., 0: 0-1, 1: 2 - 3, 3: 4 - 5, 4: 6 - 7...)

I think fans are overthinking how complicated this is. I recall debates about this a few months ago, and after I highlighted these very same arguments (I even noted a plan for Gen II, which I reiterated here), the only argument anyone else could make was "but if we're reassigning these values, are they really the same Pokemon". If we're going to be pedantic like that, I'd like to note that whenever you trade, you're actually creating a copy of your Pokemon in the recipient's game and deleting yours so if you're going to get that sentimental over mechanics...

Mew and Other Glitches
Various players have confirmed that the Mew glitch is alive and kicking in the Generation I games, so could compatibility with Sun/Moon severely reduce the value of the first Mythical Pokémon? However, if I remember correctly, one of the Stadium games (I can't remember which) would actually display where a Pokémon was caught; if that worked with Generation I, could Game Freak programme Bank to only allow Mew to be transferred if they were caught in certain locations or had other specific characteristics such as Trainer OT/ID? I imagine Pokémon levelled to be over 100 due to a number of glitches will likely simply revert, as was the case with the Stadium titles too.

What do you think about these possible? Could these be overcome, or could aspects inhibit us moving forwards?

There's already a discussion on this with a fair amount of posts but the gist is this:

There is a legitimate Mew event in Japan. In that event, Mew is traded into your game from another 3DS, meaning it won't share your OT and ID. An easy flag for Game Freak is to block all Mew transfers that do not have that OT and ID. Its perfectly doable for Game Freak--its just whether they want to do it.

 

[Silktree]

There are no compatibility "issues". The solutions are all very simple.

Bank could hypothetically double these values for transfer to Sun/Moon - which will make odd-numbered IVs and the coveted 31 impossible, but could still give them a fighting chance.

Or more sensibly, the function should be f(x)=2x+1 so that 15 corresponds to 31. I'm sure that no one will complain about 0 being assigned to 1, disregarding the rare Trick Room users.

 

[TouyaShiro]

I think there will be a Retro Facility for gen 1 battles. Trade over your Pokemon, and battle gen 1 style for nostalgia's sake. That or they literally built in the gen 1 IV/EV system and have a Retro Style option. No natures or abilities, just status hax. Would be a a crazy thing to see how later Pokemon and moves work.

I'm training up this very moment for what's probably going to be the closest we can get to that in Generation VI, the Kanto Classic. I'm doing it a bit hastily because there's only a few days left before registration closes (save for the moment the gate closes with its 50,000 participant limit), but it should be interesting to see how battling works under the modern system with classic rules! No items, singles, all 6 Pokémon.

 

[Glitchipedia]

A relatively simple way to convert the IVs would be (IV ÷ 15) × 31, rounded down. The result would effectively be the same as doubling them, except that a value of 15 would result in a modern IV of 31.

I suppose one could reset the Pokémon's EVs, but I'd recommend doing this only if its EV total actually exceeds the cap of 510. Alternatively, rather than being wholly reset, each EV could simply be reduced with a formula like (EV ÷ total) × 510, rounded down. That way you wouldn't have to start from scratch.

 

[Hellpest]

As everyone knows by now, the global announcement of the seventh generation games Sun/Moon included the rather surprising announcement that by utilising Bank, the new games will be compatible with the recently released Virtual Console editions of the classic Red/Green/Blue/Yellow. However, the data structure of the games and how certain values are determined has changed radically over the past twenty years, so I was wondering on what your thoughts are in regards to how this compatibility will be handled, as well as whether the implementation could prevent Virtual Console re-releases of Gold/Silver/Crystal?

IVs and The Special Stat:
Back in ye days of olde, the IV range of a Pokémon's stats were a mere 0-15 compared to today's cap of 31. It's possible that these IVs could be left intact and older species forever be nerfed, or Bank could hypothetically double these values for transfer to Sun/Moon - which will make odd-numbered IVs and the coveted 31 impossible, but could still give them a fighting chance.

For the initial transfer, the Special stat will likely be split in the same way it was for the Generation II games; with the Special Attack and Special Defence stats sharing the same IV and EVs. A potential issue could arise however, is EVs. Since Ruby/Sapphire, an Effort Value cap has been placed on Pokémon preventing them from receiving any more than 510 EVs across all stats, but before then a trainer could achieve the maximum 255 points in all stats. I can't see Sun/Moon changing the data structure to make that possible again (at least I hope not), so could we see the transfer process completely wipe EVs before calculating the new stats?

Personality Values and Generation II:
With Generation III's introduction of personality values to determine aspects such as gender and shininess it's likely that a Generation I Pokémon could simply be assigned these during transfer, unlike in Generation II where those values were determined by IVs. If these latest Virtual Console ports were to be followed up by a release of Gold/Silver/Crystal, could that aspect of those games prevent a re-release? Unless Bank is able to identify the parameters for gender and shininess, then assign the correct personality values to that specific Pokémon.

Mew and Other Glitches
Various players have confirmed that the Mew glitch is alive and kicking in the Generation I games, so could compatibility with Sun/Moon severely reduce the value of the first Mythical Pokémon? However, if I remember correctly, one of the Stadium games (I can't remember which) would actually display where a Pokémon was caught; if that worked with Generation I, could Game Freak programme Bank to only allow Mew to be transferred if they were caught in certain locations or had other specific characteristics such as Trainer OT/ID? I imagine Pokémon levelled to be over 100 due to a number of glitches will likely simply revert, as was the case with the Stadium titles too.

What do you think about these possible? Could these be overcome, or could aspects inhibit us moving forwards?

What I'm more interested in is all the new broken strategies that will become available, such as Fissure on a Machamp (or even Machop) with No Guard. Set up a trick room and you got a guaranteed OHKO every turn on a pokemon with 55 base speed (or 35 with Machop). It even learns Smack Down to guarantee that Fissure, a Ground-type move, will hit all pokémon.

Movesets were reveamped in GenIII, allowing transfer from GenI with all of it's unique TMs will open up a huge new area in competive with all of the new move/ability combos, as well as all the new egg move chains opened up.

(Now to get GenII re-releases so I can finally get a Bulbasaur with Razor Wind. It used it in the anime, I want it in-game too :/)

 

[TechSkylander1518]

They might just make it where No Guard doesn't affect OHKO moves. (has anyone tried this before with Skill Swap? I feel like if it worked, it would already be used to death) And they could do like they did with HM moves and not let them be transferred up without forgetting the move.

 

[Hellpest]

They might just make it where No Guard doesn't affect OHKO moves. (has anyone tried this before with Skill Swap? I feel like if it worked, it would already be used to death) And they could do like they did with HM moves and not let them be transferred up without forgetting the move.

It was tested in GenVI at least, and it worked as expected.

If it were to be done with Skill Swap, that would limit it to double battles, and take three/four turns to set up - two for Skill Swap, one for Trick Room, and one for switching Machamp in. A Fissure Machamp only needs Trick Room, and works in all scenarios.

As for the HM thing - was that GenI to GenIV? I don't remember that being a thing, but I didn't start to move pokémon up through the games until GenV. I can confirm it definitely isn't the case in GenV though, I used a Ducklet with Surf in W2 which I traded up from W.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I wasn't considering Trick Room a necessity-you could have a faster Pokemon with a OHKO move, after all-but it does require a bit of setup.

You can trade Pokemon with HMs just fine, but you can't transfer Pokemon between generations that know HM moves. W and W2 are in the same generation, so it wasn't an issue for you, but transferring Pokemon between generations usually required it, like with Pal Park in Gen 4 and the Poke Transfer Lab in Gen 5. They removed that requirement in Gen 6, but that doesn't mean that they can't put in new restrictions to Gen 1 Pokemon.

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

I wouldn't put it past them to not restrict No Guard this generation. It took a whole generation for them to patch Shadow Tag.

 

[Gengarzilla]

I wouldn't put it past them to not restrict No Guard this generation. It took a whole generation for them to patch Shadow Tag.

They really should, this is a lot more problematic and broken than the situation of two Struggling Wobbuffet with Leftovers. Anything on the ground is at risk without Sturdy. It would be stupid to overlook that.

 

[Almonds]

It was tested in GenVI at least, and it worked as expected.

If it were to be done with Skill Swap, that would limit it to double battles, and take three/four turns to set up - two for Skill Swap, one for Trick Room, and one for switching Machamp in. A Fissure Machamp only needs Trick Room, and works in all scenarios.

As for the HM thing - was that GenI to GenIV? I don't remember that being a thing, but I didn't start to move pokémon up through the games until GenV. I can confirm it definitely isn't the case in GenV though, I used a Ducklet with Surf in W2 which I traded up from W.

I wasn't considering Trick Room a necessity-you could have a faster Pokemon with a OHKO move, after all-but it does require a bit of setup.

You can trade Pokemon with HMs just fine, but you can't transfer Pokemon between generations that know HM moves. W and W2 are in the same generation, so it wasn't an issue for you, but transferring Pokemon between generations usually required it, like with Pal Park in Gen 4 and the Poke Transfer Lab in Gen 5. They removed that requirement in Gen 6, but that doesn't mean that they can't put in new restrictions to Gen 1 Pokemon.

I wouldn't put it past them to not restrict No Guard this generation. It took a whole generation for them to patch Shadow Tag.

They really should, this is a lot more problematic and broken than the situation of two Struggling Wobbuffet with Leftovers. Anything on the ground is at risk without Sturdy. It would be stupid to overlook that.

What if all the VC mons get hidden abilities by default when transferring over?