Race, Racism, And Representation Within The Anime

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Just because you prefaced your views on actions against questionably racist writing as "opinions" doesn't make it okay.

I didn't mean to judge anyone else's viewpoints, and I apologise if it came off as me doing so. That was not what I meant or feel.

 

[KyseL]

I think this is an important conversation to have. However, I think it's necessary to take into account the fact that not everyone here comes from a "colonizer" country with a huge backlog of past instances of racism within their history. So it's not that surprising when some people can't immediately empathize with the plight of PoC living in white dominated countries where those types of histories are way more prominent. I think it's normal to have a heated reaction on issues that can be linked to racism, but at the same time if you want people from (for the lack of a better word) the developing world to fully empathize with an anti-racist posture you can't just assume they/we will know everything from the get go. I can't for sure tell what the best approach is, but from a utilitarian perspective I think it's important to take the history of transgressions like black face to the forefront instead of just assuming everyone knows it as soon as they say something that might come off as insensitive.

 

[JinksChow]

I think this is an important conversation to have. However, I think it's necessary to take into account the fact that not everyone here comes from a "colonizer" country with a huge backlog of past instances of racism within their history. So it's not that surprising when some people can't immediately empathize with the plight of PoC living in white dominated countries where those types of histories are way more prominent. I think it's normal to have a heated reaction on issues that can be linked to racism, but at the same time if you want people from (for the lack of a better word) the developing world to fully empathize with an anti-racist posture you can't just assume they/we will know everything from the get go. I can't for sure tell what the best approach is, but from a utilitarian perspective I think it's important to take the history of transgressions like black face to the forefront instead of just assuming everyone knows it as soon as they say something that might come off as insensitive.

I get what you're saying, but when we live in a world where information is easily accessible with a click of a mouse and where racism is such a widely discussed issue, there is a point where the burden of work shifts from those on the side of criticism to those who do not understand.

 

[KyseL]

I get what you're saying, but when we live in a world where information is easily accessible with a click of a mouse and where racism is such a widely discussed issue, there is a point where the burden of work shifts from those on the side of criticism to those who do not understand.

I get that, trust me. However, at the same time as information is easily accessible, misinformation is too. Telling people who haven't experienced or personally connected with anyone who has experienced racism that they should just get with the program is extremely ineffectual. I've met a lot of people that think of racism as something made up by SJWs/progressives just because they live in their own bubble (which to be fair is often filled with their own kinds of local problems), and that bubble isn't going to burst by assuming they should just know. I've seen some people even resent PoC living in "high class countries" because they honestly believe that even the worst off people in these countries are doing better than them (and it sorta kinda makes sense).

I'm not trying to justify ignorance, though. However, I do believe we should try to approach it with a little more understanding.

 

[Konja7]

You could be a bit more courteous branding something as "oversensitive" specially if the "sensitive" part doesn’t concern you per se. Your post basically declares that any PoC offended by that was being overtly sensitive.

Regarding Gou's nationality:
Comparing dark skinned people to monkeys isn’t a necessarily US exclusive phenomenon. There was a fair amount of animalistic imagery around Indians going on when the UK colonised our country. My countrymen were deemed to be less than human. Let’s not even delve into the Bengal famine.

True. The problem isn't a US exclusive phenomenon.

However, Japanese people likely see Go as a dark skin Japanese.

So, the Japanese writers write a story about a Japanese kid that see his Japanese parents as Rillabooms in a dream.

The racism implication will only start on a country that associate Go's dark skin with a another race.


PS: In Japan, there seems to be certain discrimination against darker skin Japanese, but it seems to be related to beauty standards (and affect mainly women).

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

True. The problem isn't a US exclusive phenomenon.

However, Japanese people likely see Go as a dark skin Japanese.

So, the Japanese writers write a story about a Japanese kid that see his Japanese parents as Rillabooms in a dream.

The racism implication will only start on a country that associate Go's dark skin with a another race.


PS: In Japan, there seems to be certain discrimination against darker skin Japanese, but it seems to be related to beauty standards (and affect mainly women).

The thing is, the anime is a global product now and it’s been known for quite a while. It’s not as if the Japanese don’t know that the anime airs worldwide. They want to sell a product worldwide so they need to act on worldwide sensitivities as well.

 

[RileyXY1]

The thing is, the anime is a global product now and it’s been known for quite a while. It’s not as if the Japanese don’t know that the anime airs worldwide. They want to sell a product worldwide so they need to act on worldwide sensitivities as well.

Yeah, and the US is their second biggest market. Alienating them would be a catastrophic loss of sales.

 

[Konja7]

The thing is, the anime is a global product now and it’s been known for quite a while. It’s not as if the Japanese don’t know that the anime airs worldwide. They want to sell a product worldwide so they need to act on worldwide sensitivities as well.

The dub seems to be the worried one about the worldwide sensitivities.

The current anime seems to be mainly worried about the Japanese market. That's why they don't release the episodes (with sub) in other countries at the same time.

A company cannot worry about the sensitivities of all countries. So they leave that job to the distributor in that country.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Me and my family all, while living in a country that has never been a "colonizer country", as @KyseL put it, and not being PoC ourselves, hate racism. When I mentioned my mom shaking her head at the Jynx controversy, she was reacting to the American oversensitivity.

Now, I'm not saying that considering how black people or minorities feel is a wrong thing, but sometimes, people take sensitivity and turn it into oversensitivity. Take Brock's brief departure, for example. He left the show because he was assumed to be a racist stereotype, when, if the showrunners had just taken their time to actually ask their audience, they would've learned that the western audience's opinion on Brock couldn't have been further from racism.

 

[prog rocker]

Gotta admit, I gave a pass to the Passimian episode, but this one is... pretty awkward. I want to know the full context here, but I feel this might fall into unfortunate implications...

 

[Hidden Mew]

Me and my family all, while living in a country that has never been a "colonizer country", as @KyseL put it, and not being PoC ourselves, hate racism. When I mentioned my mom shaking her head at the Jynx controversy, she was reacting to the American oversensitivity.

It's still not really a good idea to label the Jynx controversy as Americans being overly sensitivity. While I don't think that they intended to invoke black face imagery with Jynx's original design, the similarities between it and racist depictions of black people are just too apparent. I didn't really get the reaction myself until I saw racist cartoons for the first time in a history class and then it finally clicked. Keep in mind that I am not a person of color, so for a lot of kids or adults who saw Jynx's original design, the connection was probably more obvious right off the bat. Brushing that aside as just people being overly sensitive is still really rude, especially when a lot of people still deal with racism on a daily basis and these kind of racist insults/depictions of black people are still quite apparent too.

Now, I'm not saying that considering how black people or minorities feel is a wrong thing, but sometimes, people take sensitivity and turn it into oversensitivity. Take Brock's brief departure, for example. He left the show because he was assumed to be a racist stereotype, when, if the showrunners had just taken their time to actually ask their audience, they would've learned that the western audience's opinion on Brock couldn't have been further from racism.

I don't think that is an example of being overly sensitive exactly, but rather being catious. The staff wanted to avoid more bad publicity with another potential Jynx situation and I can't really blame them for that. Aside from the Porygon episode, Jynx's original design is one of the more well known controversies in the franchise, so wanting to avoid another potential problem was reasonable. Besides that, I'm not just comfortable with the whole people are being overly sensitive notion. In my experience, it generally isn't a good idea to say that people are being too sensitive. I've rarely seen it done in a way that ultimately doesn't come off as dismissive towards other people's feelings, but saying that in regards to stuff like racist imagery in Jynx's original design just feels too rude, dismissive and lacks empathy for people who do have to deal with racist garbage.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

It's still not really a good idea to label the Jynx controversy as Americans being overly sensitivity. While I don't think that they intended to invoke black face imagery with Jynx's original design, the similarities between it and racist depictions of black people are just too apparent. I didn't really get the reaction myself until I saw racist cartoons for the first time in a history class and then it finally clicked. Keep in mind that I am not a person of color, so for a lot of kids or adults who saw Jynx's original design, the connection was probably more obvious right off the bat. Brushing that aside as just people being overly sensitive is still really rude, especially when a lot of people still deal with racism on a daily basis and these kind of racist insults/depictions of black people are still quite apparent too.



I don't think that is an example of being overly sensitive exactly, but rather being catious. The staff wanted to avoid more bad publicity with another potential Jynx situation and I can't really blame them for that. Aside from the Porygon episode, Jynx's original design is one of the more well known controversies in the franchise, so wanting to avoid another potential problem was reasonable. Besides that, I'm not just comfortable with the whole people are being overly sensitive notion. In my experience, it generally isn't a good idea to say that people are being too sensitive. I've rarely seen it done in a way that ultimately doesn't come off as dismissive towards other people's feelings, but saying that in regards to stuff like racist imagery in Jynx's original design just feels too rude, dismissive and lacks empathy for people who do have to deal with racist garbage.

I didn't mean to be rude or insult anyone. My bad. Different people just see things differently, and we Europeans may see the line between sensitivity and oversensitivity differently than Americans do.

 

[Alola]

I didn't mean to be rude or insult anyone. My bad. Different people just see things differently, and we Europeans may see the line between sensitivity and oversensitivity differently than Americans do.

Just my opinion, but I do not think you should generalize like that. A personal anecdote - my dad is from London and his family is spread across the UK; thus, European. I have had a conversation with him before regarding the Jynx scandal and he immediately connected the imagery to blackface. Nothing sensitive about it. Also, I imagine that Europeans of color may not necessarily see that line as differently as you might think. Although, you are right that there are European nations, such as Finland, that have not experienced the same degree of racism, achievement gaps, etc. to be as aware or perceptive to these topics compared to US citizens, for example.

Also, when you say "Americans," are you referring to North America and South America? Or United States citizens? Too many people use only 'Americans" for the US populace and it's incorrect - the US does not represent "America" in its entirety; there are so many countries and viewpoints contained within the Americas. I know it is a global phenomenon with years of being reinforced, but I'm trying to do my part and challenge that whenever it comes up in conversation.

 

[DynamicFusion]

Probably referring to Americans meaning people living in USA. South America itself is culturally very different from USA No way near even similar.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

The dub seems to be the worried one about the worldwide sensitivities.

The current anime seems to be mainly worried about the Japanese market. That's why they don't release the episodes (with sub) in other countries at the same time.

Well because there’s a division taking care of that. The Japanese makers are clearly aware that their product has a global placement and it will go out to the world.

The distributor and the creator in this case are seen as one in the same a lot of the times, so the reputation of one hinges on that of the other. If Pokemon expects to sell to other countries, they need to be perspective to them. Pokémon as a franchise is really dependent on the non-Japanese audience but the audience itself won’t be too phased if Pokemon disappears specially if it’s due to racist reasons.

 

[ii kanji]

I do think it’s too early to completely condemn this upcoming episode before it airs, but this whole saga raises a much more interesting/important issue on a kind of meta production/fandom level.

I am very understanding that lots of people are not sensitised to race related issues because they may themselves live in a more ethnically homogenous place.

Not knowing is fine, and I am also ‘guilty’ of this plenty - I haven’t made a connection between a single one of these big Pokemon/racism controversies myself until I read other people’s writings online. I do think it is important to develop a self awareness though about what things you know/understand, and therefore when to pay attention when someone who is actually the minority group in question says that something is not right.

For some reason people get very disturbed by the word racism, as if equal to committing a murder. I doubt there’s a single person who hasn’t mistakenly held a racist view or said or did something that oppresses (in some small way) some minority group. 99% would be unintentional and not meaning to cause harm, but it still does cause harm and is therefore still racism.

We can all learn from each other as a community which is fine, but I don’t understand why people get so up in arms about defending the producers of the show. This is not just one naive Japanese person trying to make a cute show, this is an arm of the world’s biggest media franchise which undoubtedly has (or bloody well should do) a process to make these checks.

Fans defending the corporation when a person who has been affected by an issue like racism is saying that a certain portrayal is racist really peeves me. Also what peeves me is this generalisation that ‘Americans are quick to offend’. A lot of the online English speaking fanbase are in the US, but plenty aren’t and are still affected by racism.

 

[swiftgallade46]

I want to also emphasize that racism is definitely not an issue limited to the US. I would be absolutely shocked if someone claimed it didn’t exist in Japan (or almost anywhere) at all. It just exists in different ways.

But, again, if you are releasing a product or media to another part of the world, the responsibility lies on you to learn about your audience in those areas.

 

[cjd1207]

Shouldn't we wait for own dub to make to see how the grookey episode goes because they do edit or skip stuff that inappropriate for our culture. I mean this episode is made for a japanese audience and we are pirating with the number people on this forum not knowing their language and saying they are going to wait for the sub

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Just my opinion, but I do not think you should generalize like that. A personal anecdote - my dad is from London and his family is spread across the UK; thus, European. I have had a conversation with him before regarding the Jynx scandal and he immediately connected the imagery to blackface. Nothing sensitive about it. Also, I imagine that Europeans of color may not necessarily see that line as differently as you might think. Although, you are right that there are European nations, such as Finland, that have not experienced the same degree of racism, achievement gaps, etc. to be as aware or perceptive to these topics compared to US citizens, for example.

Also, when you say "Americans," are you referring to North America and South America? Or United States citizens? Too many people use only 'Americans" for the US populace and it's incorrect - the US does not represent "America" in its entirety; there are so many countries and viewpoints contained within the Americas. I know it is a global phenomenon with years of being reinforced, but I'm trying to do my part and challenge that whenever it comes up in conversation.

I feel like I'm digging myself into a deeper hole every time I try to explain myself and my opinion on this matter... Surely it's not wrong to see the Jynx controversy the way I do?

EDIT: Sorry about the generalization.

 

[ii kanji]

I feel like I'm digging myself into a deeper hole every time I try to explain myself and my opinion on this matter... Surely it's not wrong to see the Jynx controversy the way I do?

You know, I actually think it's very brave and admirable of you to be explaining your view/reasoning on this matter, when it is a sensitive issue and people can sometimes be quick to try to shut you down.

I think I'm right in understanding that you're a native Finnish person living in Finland? I don't want to teach you to suck eggs or tell you what opinion to have, but if you haven't had any exposure to what racism is/is like yourself then it can be hard to understand how people who have been affected by racism seem to get 'triggered' so easily. So I am going to use an analogy to explain my experience of racism.

Probably you have some aspect of yourself that you were born with that you didn't choose, but that the world makes you feel bad about having. Let's say, for example, it's something 'small' and 'common' like wearing glasses. In little ways people who don't wear glasses constantly remind you that you are different and they consider you slightly lesser for it. You might have had a really bad experience when you were younger like being bullied emotionally with name calling, or even physically. Many people might try to do/say things with good intentions but that still make you feel 'other' like a teacher always making you sit at the front of the classroom, or as an adult people saying stupid things like that you can probably see better than them.

Because of all this you would be quite sensitive to how characters who wear glasses are portrayed in your favourite Pokemon anime. You might be annoyed that glasses-wearing characters are always nerdy, or that no main girl has ever worn them. If there were a character in whom this trait was portrayed really insensitively, for example that they are considered ugly and made a joke out of and can never find love because of wearning glasses, you would rightly feel offended by this.

I hope you get the idea that even something simple might sensitise you to a particular issue. Now imagine this, except with race, where there is a deep history of systemic oppression, slavery .etc. You would naturally feel more strongly on not just a personal but a societal level that a bad portrayal of a POC is offensive. Especially when that offensive portrayal is not just a bad characterisation or stereotype, but involving an actual historical slander such as blackface or monkey analogies.

So now, if you look at black jynx and then the horrible golliwog character-type, can you see the visual similarity? And can you see why, even if the original intention was not a racist one and just a ganguro reference, a person who has been affected by that sort of horrible imagery would find it offensive?