• Hello all! The forum staff have introduced a new rule set. We've reduced the number of rules, made trick language easier to understand, and have hopefully simplified the rules to make understanding them easier. Please have a read over the new forum rules here.
  • Hey guys! Have you heard? We now have popup
    Yes, Popups!
    messages for your forum posts. Learn more about it here!
  • Hey everyone, if you hadn't heard, information about Sword and Shield has been leaking. Outside of the designated threads in our Current Events section, please keep all unrevealed Pokemon, names, or any other information in spoiler tags. This policy will be in effect until January 3rd. This is an exciting time for Pokémon fans, enjoy yourselves!
  • Recently, some of our fellow Pokémon fan sites have received legal requests to take down leaked Sword and Shield images. We have not received one of these requests yet, but we are taking some preemptive measures to stay on the safe side. We ask that from now until the games release (November 15th) that you do not post any new leaked images anywhere on the forums.

    For more information, see this thread

SPOILERS: Rainbow Rocket and the 4 timelines

Dieter
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
961
Reaction score
658
Since these games remind me somewhat of BW2, I kinda view this as this game's version of the PWT. The main thing that interest me about this concept though, would be actually seeing these alternative worlds.

A Kanto-Johto where Rocket has succeeded and installed a Pokemon racket(?) Ironically, this world is the hardest for me to define despite this team having the simplest goal.

. . .

Honestly, I can see why Gio, Max, Arch, Ghet, and Faba would pool together for self benefit, but the genocidal duo make it a bit of a stretch. They would either want to repeat their own outcomes, or would simply be content within their dark timelines imo. I also only feel like Gio is the leader simply because he was the first (tbf he is the most business-wise/sane), which I suppose doesn't matter as the real leader is probably just Ghetsis again anyways. I guess Ghetsis & Gio may be smart enough to manipulate Cyrus? Certainly Lysandre.

I know we likely wouldn't get to see the dark timelines, but a Switch side game follow up would be a cool way to capitalize on the concept.
Especially Cyrus I could see wanting to further influence other realities/dimensions, or simply eliminating them. Considering he can't even handle the notion of one flawed world already...

As for a dark Kanto/Johto, I think it wouldn't differ that much from how we see it in the games. Or rather, the things we see in the games already would have more presence. Part of the E4 or the entire E4 might be replaced with Rocket affiliates (maybe what would become the Johto Admins). Giovanni is pretty much a behind the schemes guy
 
Stuck
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,017
Reaction score
11,356
Giovanni is from the USUM world and there is no indication that he's taken over Kanto/Johto. I don't think that Game Freak have put much thought into any of this. The other bosses were yanked away from their universes as soon as they won, so for all we know they're temporary victories at best.
 
Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2016
Messages
144
Reaction score
151
I don't think that Game Freak have put much thought into any of this. The other bosses were yanked away from their universes as soon as they won, so for all we know they're temporary victories at best.
Pretty much this.
Pokemon is a role play game featuring a protagonist with blank personality. The player needs to fill the loose ends with their own headcanons, and insert or create a personality and motivation the the main character. Taking this account, it's pretty clear that Game Freak is going to the route that "every experience on every version is it's own universe", so following game script, there's thousands of alternate realities in Pokemon.

I particularly like the Rainbow Rocket concept with all villains fighting together in an apocalyptic moment, but i'm not fan of the alternate realities, because IMO it's a cheap storytelling. I have no choice but to accept it though.

Also I understand why this plot device was used: the games timeline were already a mess and if they gave some canon answers (issue that probably developers were divided and most didn't care enough) it would make the personal experience of each player less enjoyable crashing the role play element.
 
Stuck
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,017
Reaction score
11,356
It was used because in any "canon" world (for any version), Lysandre should be dead, Cyrus is no longer around, and Maxie and Archie have turned good.

The original plan was to have the villains make cameos in the Battle Agency, by the way.

At first, we were planning to just have some of the bosses from previous games appear in the Battle Agency, but these characters have so much personality, and our story writer felt like he could come up with a story featuring them that could be possible only in Pokémon Ultra Sun and Pokémon Ultra Moon. That's how the post-game Team Rainbow Rocket scenario got its start.
Lastly, I wouldn't call the story apocalyptic at all. Nothing much happens aside from vague references to other worlds.
 
New Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
18
Reaction score
14
  1. I'm surprised no one brought this up yet: why and how does Giovanni have Mewtwo? Neither the Kanto nor Johto games establish that Team Rocket ever attempted to capture and use Mewtwo (let alone know of its existence; we already know Mewtwo's creation was independent of Team Rocket). Okay, so Team Rocket took over Silph Co., and although it was never outright stated, we can somewhat safely assume that the takeover was so that Giovanni can steal the Master Ball. So...if Giovanni had succeeded in this quest, does the RR plot imply that he planned to use it on Mewtwo?
  2. It would be nice if this could be cleared up for me. Is RR Giovanni supposed to be the one from the USUM universe? A couple things seem off to me. First: at the conclusion of the RR episode, Giovanni makes his leave via a wormhole. Although getting swallowed up by the wormhole was voluntary (in contrast with all the other leaders), what disqualifies RR Giovanni from being another villain who came from an alternate universe if he has the ability to travel via wormholes? Second: if RR Giovanni is the same one as the Kanto mega-verse (AKA the one who USUM Red defeated several years back), then why and how does he have Mewtwo? Okay, so assuming that the answer for my first question is that Giovanni did plan to capture Mewtwo had his Silph Co. takeover not been thwarted, shouldn't USUM Red have stopped Giovanni (like his RBY and FRLG counterparts)? To my knowledge, the reason why all the other villainous leaders succeeded in their universes was because the main protagonists opposing them either didn't exist or did not progress enough in their adventures to stop the leaders (seeing as how the leaders talk about their successes as the result of no kid like the USUM PC having attempted to stop them, as opposed to having succeeded because they conquered the PC's in their home universe). We see USUM Red as a legendary trainer and a former Champion. Doesn't this imply that he defeated Team Rocket? If yes to all my above inquiries, then I guess we can say that Giovanni did indeed get busy after the Celebi event (assuming it occurred in mega-verse Johto), and his presence in the PWT didn't necessarily warrant that he gave up on his evil plans (again, assuming it occurred in mega-verse Unova).
  3. About Maxie and Archie. In the original Hoenn, the reason why they messed up and lost control of their Titans was because they stole the wrong Orb, which agitated the Titan. Wouldn't this have occurred even if the PC wasn't there to stop them? Unless I am remembering incorrectly (I probably am tbh), the reason why Maxie/Archie stole the wrong Orb was because they were stupid and clueless without Zinnia there to guide them, not because the presence/interference of the PC at Mt. Pyre freaked them out and messed up during the chaos. So, did the PC really have to be there for Maxie/Archie to lose control of the Titan? Because in USUM, it seems that Maxie/Archie have full control of their Titan. Speaking of which, if RSE Maxie/Archie had indeed stolen the right orbs, would they actually have been able to control the Titan? I'm not 100% certain if the Ultimate Weapon occurrence has a direct correlation to the existence of Primal Reversion, as in, in-universe wise, if RSE Maxie/Archie had the right orbs, would Primal Reversion have been possible? (Which would mean there is another reason why USUM Maxie/Archie are able to control their Titans, since stealing the right Orb would have resulted in what happened in ORAS anyways.)
  4. I would like to try and clear up Giovanni's moral compass. In the original RBGY Kanto universe, it did seem like Giovanni was genuinely motivated to becoming a better person and someone who trains Pokemon for sport (and the resultant disbanding of Team Rocket was due to his reformation). In FRLG, Giovanni's dialogue slightly changed to imply that he intended to get stronger so he can lead Team Rocket again rather than bettering himself as a person. His subsequent talk/argument with Silver, which seems to have taken place right after his defeat in Viridian Gym, makes it clear that Giovanni had every intention of returning to evil when the time was right (along with the PC's actions in the Celebi event). Based on his participation at the PWT, it seems like Giovanni may have returned to his position as Gym Leader (or at least something that warrants him being able to show up publicly without being arrested), although nothing indicates that this Giovanni reached a point of redemption. In USUM, Giovanni is clearly still evil and a megalomaniac (and if we are to assume that this Giovanni was the same one who USUM Red defeated, then we know that mega-verse Giovanni is just as non-redeemed as FRLG/HGSS Giovanni). So basically, in essence, aside from the original Giovanni (whose incarnation we have not seen in 20 years), Giovanni is as evil to heart as ever?
 
Last edited:
Stuck
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,017
Reaction score
11,356
1. As you said, Giovanni wanting the Master Ball for Mewtwo was always a reasonable theory. He could have discovered Fuji's diary just as Red did.

2. No idea since his dialogue is so minimal. On the one hand, the castle is from another world, which would imply the same for Team Rocket. On the other hand, Giovanni considered the battle with the player nostalgic, whereas the other villains said no such thing (Lysandre said the opposite).

FRLG/HGSS and SM/USUM probably share very similar events for Kanto and Johto. It is perfectly possible that USUM Giovanni never wanted to redeem himself and he managed to catch Mewtwo in the 7+ years between his second defeat and USUM.

3. I doubt that Primal Reversion existed as a secret in RSE, and the titans certainly don't hold their orbs in USUM. Stealing the right orbs should have done the trick, and let's remember that their victories are exaggerated since they were yanked away from their worlds right as they seemed to have been in control. As far as we know, all the villains simply caught the titans the same way as the player does.

4. Yes. At least Origins did something more interesting, and the optimist in me would like to think that SM Giovanni follows the Origins route. By the way, the PWT should be considered non-canon.
 
Last edited:
Explore.
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
3,582
Reaction score
2,393
I have a funny feeling that the little cliffhanger with Giovanni at the end was put there on purpose. It's probably a stretch, but we may see Rainbow Giovanni as a possible big bad in the Switch game. In Gen 6 with both XY and ORAS, they were pretty blatant with hints towards what the next games(Gen 7) had in store: Ultra Wormholes and "fallers" with Looker showing up out of nowhere in ORAS without a memory, Zinnia mentioning alternate universes existing, Strange Souvenir, ect.

Some people probably don't like this suggestion because "lol Gen 1 pandering", but so what? As long as the plot and gameplay are good, I don't see a problem.
 
Stuck
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,017
Reaction score
11,356
It isn't a stretch at all. I don't recall anything this blatant going nowhere. The only time we had a villain on the loose was with Ghetsis, but that was solved by the end of B2W2.

Episode RR isn't good plot-wise, though, so I have mixed feelings about this. It is clear to me that Giovanni needs Silver to gain some depth.
 
Last edited:
Explore.
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
3,582
Reaction score
2,393
It isn't a stretch at all. I don't recall anything this blatant going nowhere.

Episode RR isn't good plot-wise, though, so I have mixed feelings about this. It is clear to me that Giovanni needs Silver to gain some depth.
I agree. While I did really like a few aspects of the episode (the boss battles, characterizations and interactions of characters, and battle theme remixes), I felt that something more could have been done. But at the same time, IMO the main story of both SM and USUM were done really well... so if RR does return in the form of just Rocket members on the Switch for the main plot, I do somewhat have confidence in Game Freak to pull it off.
 
live fast die frequently
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
1,164
Reaction score
134
TL;DR canonizing alternate timelines was a stupid idea. Leave that shit to fanfics.
 
Top