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SPOILERS Regional Dex Discussion

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Actually, he's not saying that it's a stat problem... the issue with Eviolite is the same "issue" that prevented Eevee from just evolving with a Leaf Stone. GameFreak tries to avoid retcons, so they couldn't introduce new evolutions for any pokemon except for Eevee because suddenly Eviolite would work on a pokemon that it didn't work on before.
Why do I feel that in the parallel dimension in which Spaceworld GS happened people would be complaining about Eevee only using stones to evolve?
 
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Actually, he's not saying that it's a stat problem... the issue with Eviolite is the same "issue" that prevented Eevee from just evolving with a Leaf Stone. GameFreak tries to avoid retcons, so they couldn't introduce new evolutions for any pokemon except for Eevee because suddenly Eviolite would work on a pokemon that it didn't work on before.

Though they could've given us more branched evos. >.> No one would've complained.

But regional variants are "different" so they can add new evos to them because it doesn't count as a retcon.

I probably should've linked this one instead-
View: https://twitter.com/JoeMerrick/status/1159397225123975168
That’s....even more stupid. Just burn the item altogether I’m sure no one is going to miss endless Chansey stall battles anyway.
 
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That’s....even more stupid. Just burn the item altogether I’m sure no one is going to miss endless Chansey stall battles anyway.
As much as I love Chansey being the legendary tank that it is... it already was that before Eviolite, and I think GameFreak really needs to get over its retcon allergy. We really didn't need to have to look for a bigger grass rock just to evolve Eevee, and I really don't want to see cross-gen evos restricted to regional variants now.
 
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As much as I love Chansey being the legendary tank that it is... it already was that before Eviolite, and I think GameFreak really needs to get over its retcon allergy. We really didn't need to have to look for a bigger grass rock just to evolve Eevee, and I really don't want to see cross-gen evos restricted to regional variants now.
Yeah no kidding; I even blame Game Freak's retcon allergy for Dexit in the first place! They'd be less likely to think that the first proper Pokémon home console game required a cull if they didn't have to deal with introducing all of these new methods of evolution and items to keep track of for each and every game.

Not saying it would be prevented in that scenario, just that the sheer number of evolution methods likely contributed to implement the cull on some level.
 
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GameFreak tries to avoid retcons, so they couldn't introduce new evolutions for any pokemon except for Eevee because suddenly Eviolite would work on a pokemon that it didn't work on before.
Game Freak will retcon 22 Pokemon to an all new type, add never before-seen Pokemon to a remake's dex, and update movepools every gen, but won't add one evolution because then Eviolite will start working. :/ (not that I doubt you-I just hate that this is their reasoning)
 
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Yeah no kidding; I even blame Game Freak's retcon allergy for Dexit in the first place! They'd be less likely to think that the first proper Pokémon home console game required a cull if they didn't have to deal with introducing all of these new methods of evolution and items to keep track of for each and every game.

Not saying it would be prevented in that scenario, just that the sheer number of evolution methods likely contributed to implement the cull on some level.
Especially the ones that require you to evolve in a certain place or obtain a certain item- finding a place to give out that Electirizer is too much of a pain? Better cut Electabuzz from the game! Gosh where are we going to put a special magnetic field? Meh, just cut out Magnemite, Nosepass and Grubbin!

I don't like the possibilities that the Dex cut opens, or the implications of their retcon avoidance. I feel like so much of this is just resulting in a domino of too many unnecessary mechanics leading to overcomplication... and restrictions on what pokemon can receive after the Gen they're introduced.

I gotta say... Gen 7's concepts made me excited for the future of this franchise, but this Gen has done a 180 and is just making me uncomfortable with its future.
 
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Especially the ones that require you to evolve in a certain place or obtain a certain item- finding a place to give out that Electirizer is too much of a pain? Better cut Electabuzz from the game! Gosh where are we going to put a special magnetic field? Meh, just cut out Magnemite, Nosepass and Grubbin!

I don't like the possibilities that the Dex cut opens, or the implications of their retcon avoidance. I feel like so much of this is just resulting in a domino of too many unnecessary mechanics leading to overcomplication... and restrictions on what pokemon can receive after the Gen they're introduced.

I gotta say... Gen 7's concepts made me excited for the future of this franchise, but this Gen has done a 180 and is just making me uncomfortable with its future.
Other than less options, how bad can it possibly be?
 
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Interwsting new fairy, normal and dark types? How strong stats and ability wise will be the new dragon, ghost and psychic types of this gen?
 
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I doubt eviolite would be that much of a problem; they could easily rename/tweak it. Items aren't transferrable, anyway.

Also, they've retconned much bigger stuff.

So, no, I don't think it's a deliberate move. Sorry, Joe.
 
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The reason Leafeon doesn't evolve from a Leaf Stone isn't to avoid a retcon, it's clearly because new Eeveelutions are always linked to new evolution methods. That's been part of the deal for as long as they've been adding new ones. Time of day/friendship, special locations, and then Amie and the Fairy type. Honestly, new Eeveelutions aren't really added for their own sake so much as they are for tying in with and promoting new mechanics.

Game Freak will retcon 22 Pokemon to an all new type, add never before-seen Pokemon to a remake's dex, and update movepools every gen, but won't add one evolution because then Eviolite will start working. :/ (not that I doubt you-I just hate that this is their reasoning)
How do we know that it is their reasoning, though? Bringing up the Fairy type addition as a refutation feels like a strawman.

I don't believe anybody at GF has ever attributed to cessation of cross-gen evolutions to the Eviolite. That's just a theory, and I find it kind of preposterous to think that they would let a single dumb rock whose effect they could change or remove at any time if they felt it was a problem stand in the way of all that an actual new Pokémon has to offer in the way of promotional value and potential revenue. And there are certainly other factors that I think are more compelling than the Eviolite: Gen 5 was intended to be all-new, so obviously it wouldn't make sense to have any new evolutions for old Pokémon in that wave. And then in Gen 6, they decided to experiment with Mega Evolution. Cross-gen evolutions would be rather redundant in that context, with Sylveon being an exception (again, because of Eevee's heavy association with types, we can understand why they would use it to promote a new one). And then in Gen 7, with regional variants, they thought of a way to revisit old designs in an arguably less awkward way, by overhauling and adapting them to the environment of that specific region and seeing if there are new thematic ideas they can explore rather than having to pretend like Rhydon wasn't designed as a "completed" creature and proceeding to slap on something bigger that, aesthetically, really comes out of left field. And now Obstagoon is just the logical next step from regional variants - if an environment could cause a Pokémon to change its type and appearance, then why couldn't it cause it to evolve differently as well? (Technically, the Gen 4 location evolutions are already kind of this, but they're not as directly woven into the setting.)

Funny thing is, Diamond & Pearl introduced 107 new Pokémon. But if you trim out all of the ones that are linked to old Pokémon, then they actually introduced only 77 (78 if you count Regigigas even though it is also building on an existing concept). And conversely, if you count the 30 Mega Evolutions that they designed for X & Y (we know that they designed Mega Latias and Latios by then, even if they were held back), then those games could be said to have introduced 102 new Pokémon. It's as if, numerically, cross-gen evolutions didn't really go anywhere - but rather that GF have just been trying to find more interesting or organic ways of revisiting old designs beyond the straightforward option of "just add another stage," which last time led to mixed and highly criticized results.
 
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SirFafetch is coming.
Good pokemon like Dunsparce need this. Dragon/normal and dragon/fairy.

Those 3 gen bug pokemon Volbeat and Illuminise always though they should get electric or fire typing via evo.

Hmmm regional form of Basculin evolution anyone? Barracuda water/ghost pokemon?

Maybe winguls regional evolution will be the ice/flying bird instead of peliper?
 
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The reason Leafeon doesn't evolve from a Leaf Stone isn't to avoid a retcon, it's clearly because new Eeveelutions are always linked to new evolution methods. That's been part of the deal for as long as they've been adding new ones. Time of day/friendship, special locations, and then Amie and the Fairy type. Honestly, new Eeveelutions aren't really added for their own sake so much as they are for tying in with and promoting new mechanics.



How do we know that it is their reasoning, though? Bringing up the Fairy type addition as a refutation feels like a strawman.

I don't believe anybody at GF has ever attributed to cessation of cross-gen evolutions to the Eviolite. That's just a theory, and I find it kind of preposterous to think that they would let a single dumb rock whose effect they could change or remove at any time if they felt it was a problem stand in the way of all that an actual new Pokémon has to offer in the way of promotional value and potential revenue. And there are certainly other factors that I think are more compelling than the Eviolite: Gen 5 was intended to be all-new, so obviously it wouldn't make sense to have any new evolutions for old Pokémon in that wave. And then in Gen 6, they decided to experiment with Mega Evolution. Cross-gen evolutions would be rather redundant in that context, with Sylveon being an exception (again, because of Eevee's heavy association with types, we can understand why they would use it to promote a new one). And then in Gen 7, with regional variants, they thought of a way to revisit old designs in an arguably less awkward way, by overhauling and adapting them to the environment of that specific region and seeing if there are new thematic ideas they can explore rather than having to pretend like Rhydon wasn't designed as a "completed" creature and proceeding to slap on something bigger that, aesthetically, really comes out of left field. And now Obstagoon is just the logical next step from regional variants - if an environment could cause a Pokémon to change its type and appearance, then why couldn't it cause it to evolve differently as well? (Technically, the Gen 4 location evolutions are already kind of this, but they're not as directly woven into the setting.)

Funny thing is, Diamond & Pearl introduced 107 new Pokémon. But if you trim out all of the ones that are linked to old Pokémon, then they actually introduced only 77 (78 if you count Regigigas even though it is also building on an existing concept). And conversely, if you count the 30 Mega Evolutions that they designed for X & Y (we know that they designed Mega Latias and Latios by then, even if they were held back), then those games could be said to have introduced 102 new Pokémon. It's as if, numerically, cross-gen evolutions didn't really go anywhere - but rather that GF have just been trying to find more interesting or organic ways of revisiting old designs beyond the straightforward option of "just add another stage," which last time led to mixed and highly criticized results.
A good point, though I would definitely say that I find it likely Eviolite still played some kind of role.

Personally, though, I found cross-gen evos more enjoyable than Megas/Regional Variants. It would have been preferable to me to have them in addition to those mechanics rather than being cut in their favor (but maybe I’m just greedy, heh).
I also can’t speak for the fandom but I think much of the criticism of cross gen evos comes from distaste of design choice rather than the mechanic itself. I like how they’re bringing it back in a fresh new way, though.
 
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honest question... why does everyone act like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution when technically Alolan Riachu is? I mean you don't do anything different in Alola than you do in Kanto to get a Riachu. Is it because they both have the same name?
 
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honest question... why does everyone act like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution when technically Alolan Riachu is? I mean you don't do anything different in Alola than you do in Kanto to get a Riachu. Is it because they both have the same name?
Nope it is not. Raichu is Raichu; whether it's Alolan or not. We now have a usually-full-staged Pokémon (Linoone) who happens to evolve only in its regional form.

It would be somewhat comparable if Alolan Raichu, and Alolan Raichu alone, could evolve again.

Obstagoon is a completely new species; a new dex entry. Alolan Raichu was just a variant on the regular one, more comparable to Galarian Weezing.
 
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A good point, though I would definitely say that I find it likely Eviolite still played some kind of role.

Personally, though, I found cross-gen evos more enjoyable than Megas/Regional Variants. It would have been preferable to me to have them in addition to those mechanics rather than being cut in their favor (but maybe I’m just greedy, heh).
I also can’t speak for the fandom but I think much of the criticism of cross gen evos comes from distaste of design choice rather than the mechanic itself. I like how they’re bringing it back in a fresh new way, though.
To me, citing the Eviolite it just feels like people looking for something to blame for the "removal" of a thing that they liked. But it's entirely possible that the designers just got creatively bored or frustrated with the straightforward cross-gen evolutions and simply decided to do other things. (Just to be clear, I like most of the Gen 4 evolutions.)

And yes, the criticism wasn't aimed at the mechanic itself, but the mechanic itself is kind of inherently bound to the artistry of it. The thing is, the very task of creating cross-gen evolutions requires that they attempt to continue developing a concept that was previously envisioned as fully developed. It's like making a fourth movie in a series that already got told as a satisfying trilogy - you want to be able to bring something new to the table so that it doesn't feel redundant or tacked on, but finding a way to do that so that it feels natural can often be difficult. Regional variants are a little more adept at navigating that obstacle, because they wipe a given Pokémon's conceptual slate clean to some extent.
 
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To me, citing the Eviolite it just feels like people looking for something to blame for the "removal" of a thing that they liked. But it's entirely possible that the designers just got creatively bored or frustrated with the straightforward cross-gen evolutions and simply decided to do other things. (Just to be clear, I like most of the Gen 4 evolutions.)

And yes, the criticism wasn't aimed at the mechanic itself, but the mechanic itself is kind of inherently bound to the artistry of it. The thing is, the very task of creating cross-gen evolutions requires that they attempt to continue developing a concept that was previously envisioned as fully developed. It's like making a fourth movie in a series that already got told as a satisfying trilogy - you want to be able to bring something new to the table so that it doesn't feel redundant or tacked on, but finding a way to do that so that it feels natural can often be difficult. Regional variants are a little more adept at navigating that obstacle, because they wipe a given Pokémon's conceptual slate clean to some extent.
I think Eviolite is just one reason of many. At the end of the day, we don’t really know the exact reason; we can only speculate. It just appears to be a likely culprit (again, one of many).

Totally agreed. This actually applies to any new feature. The mechanic itself could be stellar but it will never become popular if the execution is [perceived as] poor. This actually is likely what plays (played?) a role in which Pokémon get cross-gen evos: they have to consider which species can be comprehensively built upon further without it looking forced/ugly and without it taking away from the original lore and design concepts. Luckily, they do have some room to play around with this if they deign to give an evolution line a pre-evolution instead of an evolution or a branch instead of another step-up. Pokémon like Blissey, Kingdra, Crobat, Gliscor, and Mamoswine have proven to me that they can do this right.
 
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honest question... why does everyone act like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution when technically Alolan Riachu is? I mean you don't do anything different in Alola than you do in Kanto to get a Riachu. Is it because they both have the same name?
Alolan Raichu is a regional variant. Regional evolutions are entirely new evolutions only available for regional forms.
 
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