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SPOILERS Regional Dex Discussion

PocketMonster

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honest question... why does everyone act like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution when technically Alolan Riachu is? I mean you don't do anything different in Alola than you do in Kanto to get a Riachu. Is it because they both have the same name?
 

AngryBinacle

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honest question... why does everyone act like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution when technically Alolan Riachu is? I mean you don't do anything different in Alola than you do in Kanto to get a Riachu. Is it because they both have the same name?
Nope it is not. Raichu is Raichu; whether it's Alolan or not. We now have a usually-full-staged Pokémon (Linoone) who happens to evolve only in its regional form.

It would be somewhat comparable if Alolan Raichu, and Alolan Raichu alone, could evolve again.

Obstagoon is a completely new species; a new dex entry. Alolan Raichu was just a variant on the regular one, more comparable to Galarian Weezing.
 

Esserise

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A good point, though I would definitely say that I find it likely Eviolite still played some kind of role.

Personally, though, I found cross-gen evos more enjoyable than Megas/Regional Variants. It would have been preferable to me to have them in addition to those mechanics rather than being cut in their favor (but maybe I’m just greedy, heh).
I also can’t speak for the fandom but I think much of the criticism of cross gen evos comes from distaste of design choice rather than the mechanic itself. I like how they’re bringing it back in a fresh new way, though.
To me, citing the Eviolite it just feels like people looking for something to blame for the "removal" of a thing that they liked. But it's entirely possible that the designers just got creatively bored or frustrated with the straightforward cross-gen evolutions and simply decided to do other things. (Just to be clear, I like most of the Gen 4 evolutions.)

And yes, the criticism wasn't aimed at the mechanic itself, but the mechanic itself is kind of inherently bound to the artistry of it. The thing is, the very task of creating cross-gen evolutions requires that they attempt to continue developing a concept that was previously envisioned as fully developed. It's like making a fourth movie in a series that already got told as a satisfying trilogy - you want to be able to bring something new to the table so that it doesn't feel redundant or tacked on, but finding a way to do that so that it feels natural can often be difficult. Regional variants are a little more adept at navigating that obstacle, because they wipe a given Pokémon's conceptual slate clean to some extent.
 
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swiftgallade46

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To me, citing the Eviolite it just feels like people looking for something to blame for the "removal" of a thing that they liked. But it's entirely possible that the designers just got creatively bored or frustrated with the straightforward cross-gen evolutions and simply decided to do other things. (Just to be clear, I like most of the Gen 4 evolutions.)

And yes, the criticism wasn't aimed at the mechanic itself, but the mechanic itself is kind of inherently bound to the artistry of it. The thing is, the very task of creating cross-gen evolutions requires that they attempt to continue developing a concept that was previously envisioned as fully developed. It's like making a fourth movie in a series that already got told as a satisfying trilogy - you want to be able to bring something new to the table so that it doesn't feel redundant or tacked on, but finding a way to do that so that it feels natural can often be difficult. Regional variants are a little more adept at navigating that obstacle, because they wipe a given Pokémon's conceptual slate clean to some extent.
I think Eviolite is just one reason of many. At the end of the day, we don’t really know the exact reason; we can only speculate. It just appears to be a likely culprit (again, one of many).

Totally agreed. This actually applies to any new feature. The mechanic itself could be stellar but it will never become popular if the execution is [perceived as] poor. This actually is likely what plays (played?) a role in which Pokémon get cross-gen evos: they have to consider which species can be comprehensively built upon further without it looking forced/ugly and without it taking away from the original lore and design concepts. Luckily, they do have some room to play around with this if they deign to give an evolution line a pre-evolution instead of an evolution or a branch instead of another step-up. Pokémon like Blissey, Kingdra, Crobat, Gliscor, and Mamoswine have proven to me that they can do this right.
 

Oriden

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honest question... why does everyone act like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution when technically Alolan Riachu is? I mean you don't do anything different in Alola than you do in Kanto to get a Riachu. Is it because they both have the same name?
Alolan Raichu is a regional variant. Regional evolutions are entirely new evolutions only available for regional forms.
 

Tuoko

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Nope it is not. Raichu is Raichu; whether it's Alolan or not. We now have a usually-full-staged Pokémon (Linoone) who happens to evolve only in its regional form.

It would be somewhat comparable if Alolan Raichu, and Alolan Raichu alone, could evolve again.

Obstagoon is a completely new species; a new dex entry. Alolan Raichu was just a variant on the regular one, more comparable to Galarian Weezing.
Alolan Raichu is a regional variant. Regional evolutions are entirely new evolutions only available for regional forms.
I think they meant that Alolan Raichu (and by extension, Exeggutor & Marowak) are cross-gen evos in that their pre-evolutions could never evolve into those forms until Gen 7. They're branch-evos, but in this case they're forms instead.

Of course the difference between those three & Galarian Zigzagoon line is Linoone gets an evolution added on top of it.
 

AngryBinacle

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I think they meant that Alolan Raichu (and by extension, Exeggutor & Marowak) are cross-gen evos in that their pre-evolutions could never evolve into those forms until Gen 7. They're branch-evos, but in this case they're forms instead.

Of course the difference between those three & Galarian Zigzagoon line is Linoone gets an evolution added on top of it.
They're not "branch-evo's, but forms", they're just regional forms; nothing branched about it. What Oriden and I said earlier. Incomparable.
 

Tuoko

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They're not "branch-evo's, but forms", they're just regional forms; nothing branched about it. What Oriden and I said earlier. Incomparable.
How exactly are they not branched, though? Yes, they're regional forms, but for those three Pokemon there's two different results when you evolve them: their Kantonian evolution or their Alolan evolution.

If that's not the definition of branched, then what is? Does Rockruff not count as branched even though it can evolve into two different results?
 

AngryBinacle

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How exactly are they not branched, though? Yes, they're regional forms, but for those three Pokemon there's two different results when you evolve them: their Kantonian evolution or their Alolan evolution.

If that's not the definition of branched, then what is? Does Rockruff not count as branched even though it can evolve into two different results?
It's not branched the way Rockruff's evo's are, as the region where you've captured the 'mon determines in what it will evolve; it's predestined, no choice whatsoever.
 

Cresselia92

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Well, Exeggutor and Marowak could be considered an extreme variant of Wormadam formes, and vary greatly depending from the area where Cubone/Exeggcute evolve. In this case, rather than evolving in grass/caves/buildings, they need to evolve in completely different regions.
 

swiftgallade46

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This is all just semantics but personally I feel like if you consider Meowstic or Lycanroc as branched evos then the same would apply to Alolan Raichu, Alolan Exeggutor, and Alolan Marowak and vice versa. I myself think they’re alternate forms, though, not branched evolutions. Having the same name is the determining factor for me.
 

Oriden

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I think they meant that Alolan Raichu (and by extension, Exeggutor & Marowak) are cross-gen evos in that their pre-evolutions could never evolve into those forms until Gen 7. They're branch-evos, but in this case they're forms instead.

Of course the difference between those three & Galarian Zigzagoon line is Linoone gets an evolution added on top of it.
The thing is, what we mean when we say "regional evolution" is brand new evolutions for regional forms. This term came from the leaker who used it in that same context to refer to Farfetch'd new regional evolution. Alolan Raichu wasn't the first "regional evolution" in this context (or any context... Alolan Exeggutor says hi) because it was just a regional variant of an already existing pokemon, not a new evolution entirely.

Gotta remember that Regional Evolution isn't even an official term, it's only derived from that leak where it mentions Sirfetch'd. It's basically a fan term right now that happens to refer to the concept of new evolutions for only regional variants of old pokemon, of which Obstagoon is definitely the first that we've seen.

And nooo... Alolan Raichu, Exeggutor and Marowak really aren't branch evos, they're just different forms, for the same reasons that everyone else has been pointing out about Meowstic and Lycanroc.
 

Knightwolf09

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I still think regional evolutions is still a broader term. By that I mean not just regional variants get evolutions, but I feel regular pokemon can also get regional evolutions. Like farfetch'd. They can only evolve in a certain region.
 

Tuoko

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It's not branched the way Rockruff's evo's are, as the region where you've captured the 'mon determines in what it will evolve; it's predestined, no choice whatsoever.
The region the Pokemon is captured in has never mattered. You can evolve a Pikachu/etc from Kanto, Johto, etc. into their Alolan variants, vice versa as well - you can evolve the ones caught/bred in Alola into their Kantonian counterparts.

This is all just semantics but personally I feel like if you consider Meowstic or Lycanroc as branched evos then the same would apply to Alolan Raichu, Alolan Exeggutor, and Alolan Marowak and vice versa. I myself think they’re alternate forms, though, not branched evolutions. Having the same name is the determining factor for me.
I'd argue they're all essentially branched-evos considering there's at least two different options for each of those, though Espurr itself doesn't get a choice unlike Rockruff, Pikachu, Exeggcute, Cubone since its evolution path is decided on gender.

The thing is, what we mean when we say "regional evolution" is brand new evolutions for regional forms. This term came from the leaker who used it in that same context to refer to Farfetch'd new regional evolution. Alolan Raichu wasn't the first "regional evolution" in this context (or any context... Alolan Exeggutor says hi) because it was just a regional variant of an already existing pokemon, not a new evolution entirely.

Gotta remember that Regional Evolution isn't even an official term, it's only derived from that leak where it mentions Sirfetch'd. It's basically a fan term right now that happens to refer to the concept of new evolutions for only regional variants of old pokemon, of which Obstagoon is definitely the first that we've seen.

And nooo... Alolan Raichu, Exeggutor and Marowak really aren't branch evos, they're just different forms, for the same reasons that everyone else has been pointing out about Meowstic and Lycanroc.
I know that, I'm not saying A-Raichu is the first regional evolution, it's not at all. I was just saying that maybe they meant it's a cross-gen evo.

Also why exactly aren't the four considered branch-evos when they fit in with the term? Any Pikachu can essentially evolve into Kantonian or Alolan. It's just in this case, all four evolution choices are forms, but it doesn't change that they're all different evolution choices for those Pokemon.
 

swiftgallade46

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I'd argue they're all essentially branched-evos considering there's at least two different options for each of those, though Espurr itself doesn't get a choice unlike Rockruff, Pikachu, Exeggcute, Cubone since its evolution path is decided on gender.
Honestly I feel like either opinion is totally valid. I just personally define a branched evo based on having different species names rather than evolution method. I see where you’re coming from, though.
 

AngryBinacle

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The region the Pokemon is captured in has never mattered. You can evolve a Pikachu/etc from Kanto, Johto, etc. into their Alolan variants, vice versa as well - you can evolve the ones caught/bred in Alola into their Kantonian counterparts.



I'd argue they're all essentially branched-evos considering there's at least two different options for each of those, though Espurr itself doesn't get a choice unlike Rockruff, Pikachu, Exeggcute, Cubone since its evolution path is decided on gender.



I know that, I'm not saying A-Raichu is the first regional evolution, it's not at all. I was just saying that maybe they meant it's a cross-gen evo.

Also why exactly aren't the four considered branch-evos when they fit in with the term? Any Pikachu can essentially evolve into Kantonian or Alolan. It's just in this case, all four evolution choices are forms, but it doesn't change that they're all different evolution choices for those Pokemon.
Pretty sure a Pikachu caught in Alola can't evolve into a normal Raichu; it's not a branched line, it's a region-specific line. And it's not a new 'species' (as in, dex-entry), so it doesn't hold up.
 

Esserise

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Pretty sure a Pikachu caught in Alola can't evolve into a normal Raichu; it's not a branched line, it's a region-specific line. And it's not a new 'species' (as in, dex-entry), so it doesn't hold up.
It can if you take it to Ultra Space.

For what it's worth though, I don't really think of Raichu/Exeggutor/Marowak as "branch evos" per se. The context surrounding them is clearly different from, say, Politoed.
 

TechSkylander1518

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Also why exactly aren't the four considered branch-evos when they fit in with the term?
As a fan term, whether or not they're considered branched depends on the person, but I'd personally argue that a branched evolution is specifically about the fact that a Pokemon can evolve into two different Pokemon. A form difference in a Pokemon doesn't qualify as a separate Pokemon, according to the PokeDex.

A better example of the counterargument IMO would be Vivillion. Spewpa can evolve into 18 different forms of Vivillion depending on the region set for the game. And, like Lycanroc, Meowstic, or Alolan forms, Vivillion's form can't be changed. Despite this, nobody seems to put Vivillion in the category of branched evolutions, because it's still the same Pokemon, just in a different form.
 

Oriden

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Really don't want to bother with the branched evo argument because I guess it is a personal thing but I do believe that it is simpler to consider branched evolutions as being entirely different pokemon rather than different forms of the same pokemon, or else, like @TechSkylander1518 pointed out, every form of Vivillon could be considered a branch. And if alternate forms are a branch, then what about regional variants for every member of a line? They're not branching, but they're not a separate species either. It's simpler to consider variants as being an alternate version or subspecies of the same pokemon rather than being a branched evo. A branch implies going off in a different direction and Pikachu evolving into Alolan Raichu isn't going in a different direction in the way that Gloom evolving into Bellossom does- it's still going the Raichu path, just a different version of Raichu.

Plus this whole branched evo argument is really falling away from the original point that brought this up, which was "why is everyone acting like Obstagoon is the first regional evolution instead of Alolan Raichu?" and that's because the term "regional evolution" is being used to refer to entirely new evolutions that are unique to a region's variants, not regional variants of old evolutions. Alolan Raichu is just a new form of an old pokemon, not a new evolution, therefor it isn't the first example of this "regional evolution" concept in the way that it is currently being used.

Bottom line- we're borrowing the phrase from the leak and we don't have a better term for "new cross-gen evolutions exclusive to regional variants."
 
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