DISCUSSION: Review Specifications

[diamondpearl876]

Hey, all! I'm currently tackling a plan for editing a bunch of chapter drafts for one of my fics, and as I go through all my older chapters, I intend to make a list of what readers thought I did right and what readers thought could be improved. You know, to help me figure out what to focus on in the edits.

One thing I've noticed, though, is how a lot of reviewers seem embarrassed by what they say. I can certainly understand that, so I've been wondering about a way I could maybe steer my readers in a direction that would make them more confident when reviewing my fics... or really, just reviewing fics in general, because feedback is an absolute necessary for all writers, and there can never be enough of it.

In short, I'm thinking of making a list of themes/scenes/specific characters/whatever I'd want feedback on, good or bad, at the top of each chapter post of my fics.

Some questions about this method:

1) Would this be helpful as a guide at all for reviewers, both new and experienced?
2) Would reviewers be hesitant to talk about things outside of this list?
3) If a reviewer had nothing to say about some or all of this list, would they just not review or...?

Thoughts?

 

[Beth Pavell]

I remember we kind of kicked this idea around in principle some months ago ... and admittedly my opinion may be less valuable given that I tend to simply tell you what I think. As a reviewer, I don't mind the idea of the author asking for specific focus areas. I don't mind keeping that in mind when I do my reviewing. What would turn me off, in principle, would be getting a response like "I wasn't asking about x. I was asking about y" if I commented on something other than that

 

[diamondpearl876]

I remember we kind of kicked this idea around in principle some months ago ... and admittedly my opinion may be less valuable given that I tend to simply tell you what I think. As a reviewer, I don't mind the idea of the author asking for specific focus areas. I don't mind keeping that in mind when I do my reviewing. What would turn me off, in principle, would be getting a response like "I wasn't asking about x. I was asking about y" if I commented on something other than that

That's the kind of thing I think would turn people off from reviewing and is exactly why I think author/reviewer communication needs to be improved. For the author's part, I don't personally think authors should silence or limit reviewers for talking about things off the request list, but others could think differently, which is one of my questions is related to non-list feedback.

 

[Misfit Angel]

1) Would this be helpful as a guide at all for reviewers, both new and experienced?

It would definitely be helpful for me, as that's what my feedback is meant to be -- help. This would help me help you.

2) Would reviewers be hesitant to talk about things outside of this list?

3) If a reviewer had nothing to say about some or all of this list, would they just not review or...?

Personally, I wouldn't be hesitant. With people specifying what they want, I might run the risk of having little to say on their specific subject, and I don't feel comfortable with small reviews. Would other people? I think that depends, especially if they aren't comfortable with their reviews or do them frequently.

Ultimately I think it's up to the author if they really want to limit what they get as feedback, even if it narrows the scope a lot. It might be unwise in the long run, but they may also be comfortable with other things and are looking to focus specifically on one area.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

I think that review specification can be helpful to both reviewer and writer, but Beth and Angel have rightly raised potential adverse reactions on either side. I think the key is for everyone to understand that "I'd especially like x" does not mean "y is unacceptable to mention". It's also perfectly okay to say "sorry, but I don't have much to say about x!" (This is technically saying something — that it didn't leave such a strong impression.)

I don't know if I'd ask specific things like this for my fics, but I'm sure that hesitant reviewers might appreciate some pointers on what to focus on when providing feedback.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

I think that review specification can be helpful to both reviewer and writer, but Beth and Angel have rightly raised potential adverse reactions on either side. I think the key is for everyone to understand that "I'd especially like x" does not mean "y is unacceptable to mention". It's also perfectly okay to say "sorry, but I don't have much to say about x!" (This is technically saying something — that it didn't leave such a strong impression.)

I don't know if I'd ask specific things like this for my fics, but I'm sure that hesitant reviewers might appreciate some pointers on what to focus on when providing feedback.

I am a hesitant reviewer. I definately want pointers on what to focus on.

I'm not sure if anyone here's read my reviews, but I've put future reviews on hold until I understand my own reviewing style more. I've had some complaints in private, and I'm taking then as seriously as possible...

...but at the same time, I've been going through some of my past reviews and found very positive reactions, for the very things that irked others? I think my writing style is "love it or hate it", and so I think writers pointing out what they appreciate would help me greatly...

...but at the same time, I'm not sure how this could be policed. For instance, if an author requests reviewers to "lay it on them, no matter what", then what happens if someone rips the author to shreds? From my outsider's perspective, that's a murky gray zone where forum rules butt heads with an author's stated wishes. Which leaves me scared to "lay it on them", even if they explicitly ask for it. Even if they legitimately want it.

And I'm speaking from an author's perspective, as well. I tend to write very personal fiction, which means criticizing the content of my work could require a personal attack (i.e. criticizing a self-insert for being unlikeable). But I don't mind! I enjoy personal criticism, targeted at me, the author. I like the introspection that brings, the self-improvement I get out of hearing difficult opinions. But if a third party stumbles in and reports the criticism, and that criticism technically violates the rules, then there might be a chilling effect. People might stop personally criticizing me, and then what'd they have to review? Grammah? The fact I spell grammah with an H should tell you how valuable I find grammah (not at all).

And I do agree with the consensus so far that review specifications could potentially scare people off. But if you're not interested in my review, don't you want to scare me off? For instance, I've never viewed grammah as particularly important to fiction, so long as the message gets across. But if you forced me to review someone's grammah, it's not going to be a good review. Not only is it a subject I know little about, it's also something I have a negative opinion towards. I'll be at my keyboard cranky and miserable, and that's absolutely going to leak into my review's tone. Thus, if an author explicitly gave review guidelines, then I could determine ahead of time whether a review would be helpful.

All in all, while I'm a little scared an intentionally lax review specification might erode the forum rules, I'm all in favor of letting fic authors give PERSONAL review guidelines. I put personal in all caps because writers are going to have different perspectives, they're going to react to reviews differebtly, and having universal standards may, no, will rob them of the criticism they seek the most. And even on the reviewer's end, we all have different skills. Knowing what criticism an author wants may scare away the low-quality reviewers, but it could just as well inform your dream reviewer that yes, they should focus on that thing.

Just my nightly ramble. I'm actually planning to write a Review Policy for my poetry collection in an effort to make reviews useful to on-the-fence readers. Things like "please disclose any relationship you have wuth me" and "all reviews get a like, no matter what". I think I have a very different view of reviews thsman what's normally expected in fan fiction - that is, the reviewer is the one that should be protected, not the author. But if you don't agree wuth thay, then we can just have different review policies, and then we can all coexist. This seems like such a good idea, I want to.finish my Review Policy sooner rather than later. Like, right now. If I don't fall asleep. I'm falling asleep. Moving it up my forum todo list, then! Goid night!

 

[diamondpearl876]

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean any official rule implementation by the mods or another long thing to read before reviewing fics. Nor by any means am I talking about restricting reviewer comments to an author’s Christmas list to Santa.

I’m talking about small notes at the beginning of chapters. Say, for instance, I’m unsure of my dialogue in chapter 2 of my fic. Instead of quietly being anxious about it and hoping someone will comment on it, I would say in a quick author’s note, “Hey, if anyone could comment on the dialogue in this chapter, that’d be great because I’m not sure how to improve it.” But, as usual, any comments are fantastic, because yeah, people might not have anything specific to say. Maybe I’d want to ask about multiple things in a chapter, and the reviewer then has more than one idea of what to focus on when reading but, ultimately, can review whatever. Does this/would this actually help anybody?

I brought this up because I’ve seen many times an author express disappointment that no one commented on a specific aspect of a chapter... and that doesn’t automatically mean that aspect was bad or anything. It’s entirely likely the reviewer, having nothing to say except “this was fine,” said nothing because there seems to be a common assumption in any fandom that you have to give a lot of feedback for the review to be worthwhile (which is not necessarily true).

Just wanted to clarify because maybe I came off as suggesting, indeed, detailed guidelines with nuanced caveats and some intense system that might need oversight by others. And that wasn’t my intention. That means “specifications” was a bad, formal word for this thread title, I guess? haha.

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean any official rule implementation by the mods or another long thing to read before reviewing fics. Nor by any means am I talking about restricting reviewer comments to an author’s Christmas list to Santa.

I’m talking about small notes at the beginning of chapters. Say, for instance, I’m unsure of my dialogue in chapter 2 of my fic. Instead of quietly being anxious about it and hoping someone will comment on it, I would say in a quick author’s note, “Hey, if anyone could comment on the dialogue in this chapter, that’d be great because I’m not sure how to improve it.” But, as usual, any comments are fantastic, because yeah, people might not have anything specific to say. Maybe I’d want to ask about multiple things in a chapter, and the reviewer then has more than one idea of what to focus on when reading but, ultimately, can review whatever. Does this/would this actually help anybody?

I brought this up because I’ve seen many times an author express disappointment that no one commented on a specific aspect of a chapter... and that doesn’t automatically mean that aspect was bad or anything. It’s entirely likely the reviewer, having nothing to say except “this was fine,” said nothing because there seems to be a common assumption in any fandom that you have to give a lot of feedback for the review to be worthwhile (which is not necessarily true).

Just wanted to clarify because maybe I came off as suggesting, indeed, detailed guidelines with nuanced caveats and some intense system that might need oversight by others. And that wasn’t my intention. That means “specifications” was a bad, formal word for this thread title, I guess? haha.

Aaaaah. My bad, might have projected myself onto your suggestion. I still do wonder if polite suggestions by the author might unintentionally invoke some Bulbagarden rules, as going against the author's explicit wishes seems like a bad move in general. But that's just me extrapolating from some past personal experiences.

Still, even if it's just suggestions, it'd give me more confidence as a reviewer. Either A) the author wants feedback in an area I feel proficient in, and so I am qualified to give a review, ir B) the author wants feedback in an area I'm not proficient in, in which case I save myself the trouble of a possibly messy review. This is just my personal take, as someone newer to these forums and still figuring things out. Though even then, I bet some other new users might review for entirely different reasons for me.

May I make a suggestion myself? Add a poll to this thread. Ask how someone might react to review focus areas suggested by an author. Everyone here's suggested quite a few possibilities; I wonder if we can test them out. Might get rid of all these mights, if 'dem lurkers check some boxes. I.E. if 90% of 30 people check "Ignore the guidelines and focus on making a good review", then that might answer your questions. And I have the same questions too, so I'd be interested to see datapoints.

EDIT: Grammah

 

[diamondpearl876]

@Snuggle Tier List Sure, I put up a poll for those who don't want to post. I usually don't think of polls because discussions are nice for seeing peoples' reasoning and to bounce ideas back and forth. ^^

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

...but at the same time, I'm not sure how this could be policed. For instance, if an author requests reviewers to "lay it on them, no matter what", then what happens if someone rips the author to shreds? From my outsider's perspective, that's a murky gray zone where forum rules butt heads with an author's stated wishes. Which leaves me scared to "lay it on them", even if they explicitly ask for it. Even if they legitimately want it.

The rules don't protect people from being told that their dialogue is dull or that their plot is implausible. They do protect people from being told that they're a shit writer. It's perfectly possible to lay heavy criticism on prose fiction without breaking the forum rules. In fact, I have a recent example of a review I left someone which was largely pretty tough criticism, but was received well by the recipient. You can read it here.

criticizing the content of my work could require a personal attack (i.e. criticizing a self-insert for being unlikeable).

I would not consider criticism of a character based on a real person to be an attack on that person. Of course, the specifics of the criticism do matter. "X character is unlikeable" is fairly useless feedback, since it doesn't explain why the reviewer felt such antipathy or help the author in any way. "X character is always putting other people down and I don't think that's a likeable trait in a protagonist" is both much more useful, and acknowledges the subjective nature of the feedback.

All in all, while I'm a little scared an intentionally lax review specification might erode the forum rules, I'm all in favor of letting fic authors give PERSONAL review guidelines. I put personal in all caps because writers are going to have different perspectives, they're going to react to reviews differebtly, and having universal standards may, no, will rob them of the criticism they seek the most. And even on the reviewer's end, we all have different skills. Knowing what criticism an author wants may scare away the low-quality reviewers, but it could just as well inform your dream reviewer that yes, they should focus on that thing.

The workshop mods have no intention of enforcing universal review standards, and as Kris has clarified, such a thing has not been called for.

Aaaaah. My bad, might have projected myself onto your suggestion. I still do wonder if polite suggestions by the author might unintentionally invoke some Bulbagarden rules, as going against the author's explicit wishes seems like a bad move in general. But that's just me extrapolating from some past personal experiences.

Authors can make whatever feedback requests they please. Reviewers abiding by those wishes is a matter of courtesy, not of Forum Law.

May I make a suggestion myself? Add a poll to this thread.

Want a poll, @diamondpearl876?

 

[diamondpearl876]

@unrepentantAuthor Already added one, but if you can think of better wording, by all means. xD

 

[Snuggle Tier List]

After a week of polling, I have made a hypothesis:

Very few people bother to answer polls.

You may serve me my crow, please. And it seems the conversation has hit a brick wall, at least until a new perspective joins in. It doesn't seem like anyone so far is 100% against "reviewer's guides", but I personally wouldn't assume the general reviewing public agrees. At least not with our sample size of four EDIT: Five, as of time of edit

I'd guess the next step would be for someone to actually write up a reviewer's guide and see what happens. I've been mulling over the possibility myself, though other fic-related projects have sapped my time lately. It's still information I'd want to know, and writing my own "author's thoughts on reviews" might help me untangle what exactly my thoughts are.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

@Snuggle Tier List This is a pretty small community, and forum thread polls added after the thread is founded aren't high visibility. This isn't that bad a response rate, considering.

Good luck with your developing sense for feedback!