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Rumour thread (SPOILERS - ALLEGED LEAKS)

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Stratelier

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

To be fair, every sequel is to some degree about "catering to fans"....
 

TFerro

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Personally, I hope not because I want Chespin to be either part Rock, Ground or Steel. I WANT TO BELIEVE.

Yep. Grass/Rock sweeper, I hear ya sister.

Preferably just speed and attack out the wazoo if starters are going to stick around the 525 base stat total limit.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Will Chespin learn Rollout? Hopefully, it will.
 

Dr. Buni

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

I pretty much lost any hope about Chespin becoming Grass/Rock, Grass/Steel or even Grass/Fighting. Let the thing evolve into Grass/Dark then. I just hope it have a terrific design, because in the end that is what matters the most to me, but since most Dark-type Pokémon look awesome, I am not really worried about its design.
 

ArginX

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Now that I think about it, that rumor about Mewtwo is very similar to Deoxys. That makes me believe it even less, especially since the new Mewtwo form that we know was featured in a movie before the games were released and they created hype for that form.

...which doesn't change what I said. If you missed it, I'll repeat: Deoxys-S was released around the same time as M07 aired back in '04. The fact that the formes featured in M07 were available in already-released games while the new Mewtwo forme is not is completely irrelevant to the equation.

And again, it would be awfully strange if it were made up given that every piece of information given by MageLeif thus far has turned out to be true.

It actually would make sense for some of the information to be fabricated so that he wouldn't be caught.

I see no reason to believe the Mewtwo rumor any more or less than any of the other rumors we've been given.
 

Mordicuno

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Really? Since when was this confirmed?

ChespinMoves.jpg
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Oh, I didn't see that before.

@ArginX Why not? It's reasonable to doubt the Mewtwo rumor for that reason. Also, by the way, how was my reason irrelevant?
 

ArginX

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

It's easy to doubt pretty much any of his remaining rumors based on your logic, but why this one more than any of the others?

Your reason was irrelevant because the relevant focus should be the fact that Deoxys-S proved that formes from games released the following fall can be announced prior to movie releases without being in those movies. Whether a movie-featured forme is available in-game by the time of movie release really has nothing to do with it.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

And what is your reason for believing the Mewtwo rumor? Because the other rumors became true?

If the previously revealed forme of Mewtwo can be said to look roughly similar to Mewtwo’s original design, the second supposed form of Mewtwo can be said to look roughly/vaguely similar to Mew‘s design.

Here's the Pokébeach rumor for Mewtwo. Why would there be a form that's similar to Mew?

A new move, Belch, is a Poison-type attack that has a base power of 120. The user must consume a held Berry to perform it.

There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

Draining Kiss is a Fairy-type attack that heals the user for the same amount of damage performed. It has a base power of 60.

Although Drain Kiss was confirmed to be a move, I don't believe the rest of this rumor. Why? All of the attacks that drain hp only restore 1/2 of the damage performed (except Leech Seed, but that deals continuous damage). Why should this move be any different?
 
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testflightwright

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

are there any rumors on how transferring Pokemon from gen 5 to 6 will work yet? I I can't say I will be very happy if they over look this.
 

Neptune's Disciple

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

And what is your reason for believing the Mewtwo rumor? Because the other rumors became true?

Well it certainly makes more sense to believe a rumour when other leaks from the same person have been found to be true than to believe a rumour from an unknown source.

Here's the Pokébeach rumor for Mewtwo. Why would there be a form that's similar to Mew?

Because it would support the whole Nature vs Nurture debate. Mewtwo is the way he is due to nurture, so what would he have been like without the human input?

A new move, Belch, is a Poison-type attack that has a base power of 120. The user must consume a held Berry to perform it.

There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

There are several examples of moves with a similar base, yet with different power or typing. Just look at the increased priority attacks - sure, they could have just kept with Quick Attack, but they've constantly added variations of it with different types, base powers, or secondary effects

Draining Kiss is a Fairy-type attack that heals the user for the same amount of damage performed. It has a base power of 60.

Although Drain Kiss was confirmed to be a move, I don't believe the rest of this rumor. Why? All of the attacks that drain hp only restore 1/2 of the damage performed (except Leech Seed, but that deals continuous damage). Why should this move be any different?

See previous point. Just because a particular type of move functioned one way in a previous gen, doesn't mean a new variation of it will function the same in a future gen. Compare Quick Attack and Suckerpunch. Prior to SP's intro, you would automatically assume that a new +priority move would have 40 base power, 100% accuracy, and little else, however SP changed that preconceived idea of a priority move rather drastically. And yes, I know there is Extremespeed, but that just furthers my point that not all variation moves function the same way.

are there any rumors on how transferring Pokemon from gen 5 to 6 will work yet? I I can't say I will be very happy if they over look this.

The current idea is that it will be done via a downloadable app for the 3DS, though no confirmation as yet.
 

LimitCrown

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Here's the Pokébeach rumor for Mewtwo. Why would there be a form that's similar to Mew?

Because it would support the whole Nature vs Nurture debate. Mewtwo is the way he is due to nurture, so what would he have been like without the human input?

Uhh.... Mewtwo is already nurtured. How does this logic even make sense? What is Mewtwo's confirmed alternate form supposed to represent, then? Also, the Nature/Nurture debate would be more appropriate in Gen V.

A new move, Belch, is a Poison-type attack that has a base power of 120. The user must consume a held Berry to perform it.

There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

There are several examples of moves with a similar base, yet with different power or typing. Just look at the increased priority attacks - sure, they could have just kept with Quick Attack, but they've constantly added variations of it with different types, base powers, or secondary effects.

That would make sense, if those increased priority moves were related to each other in any other way. For example, Extremespeed is a stronger Quick Attack. Besides the increased power, they function the same way. Sucker Punch, on the other hand, does not. Also, Sucker Punch follows different rules than the others: if the opponent is not going to use a direct damage attack, then the move fails; if the opponent moves first, the move fails. In my opinion, 120 base damage is too much for a move like that.

Draining Kiss is a Fairy-type attack that heals the user for the same amount of damage performed. It has a base power of 60.

Although Drain Kiss was confirmed to be a move, I don't believe the rest of this rumor. Why? All of the attacks that drain hp only restore 1/2 of the damage performed (except Leech Seed, but that deals continuous damage). Why should this move be any different?

See previous point. Just because a particular type of move functioned one way in a previous gen, doesn't mean a new variation of it will function the same in a future gen. Compare Quick Attack and Suckerpunch. Prior to SP's intro, you would automatically assume that a new +priority move would have 40 base power, 100% accuracy, and little else, however SP changed that preconceived idea of a priority move rather drastically. And yes, I know there is Extremespeed, but that just furthers my point that not all variation moves function the same way.

All of the HP-draining moves that dealt damage only once (which is all except Leech Seed) only heal 1/2 of the damage dealt. Even the new move Parabolic Charge follows this rule. Your example doesn't make sense at all and it doesn't match this context. Also, if this actually happened, the move would become overpowered because it heals for all of the damage dealt instead of half. Combine it with Big Root, and you would recover 130% of the damage dealt. How would that make sense?
 
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The Outrage

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

It's the equivalent of Fling with more restrictions on what can be held. I don't see how that's too high a base damage given that it's likely going to be a single use and we have Fling that can reach up to 130 base power.

Perhaps in your opinion its too high, but there's really no precedence to say that given that both Natural Gift and Fling are very different in how they function in terms of damage and effect. For instance, Natural Gift's power ranges from 60 to 80 at 10 point increments with the move's type varying on the type of berry used but has no secondary effects. Fling on the other hand starts with 10, then jumps to a range of 30 - 100 at 10 point increments, then jumps to 130. It also gains a secondary effect based on the item held and is always a Dark type move.

This move, as far as we can tell has a set base power but is also set as being Poison and has no secondary effects. The only thing we can assume is similar is that after the held item is consumed, the move cannot be used again.
 
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LimitCrown

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There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

It's the equivalent of Fling with more restrictions on what can be held. I don't see how that's too high a base damage given that it's likely going to be a single use and we have Fling that can reach up to 130 base power. Perhaps in your opinion its too high, but there's really no precedence to say that given that both Natural Gift and Fling are very different in how they function in terms of damage and effect.

Of course it can reach up to 130 base power because you can fling a dense, Iron Ball at the opponent. Of course that would hurt a lot. Fling still retains its Dark typing, too.

With Belch, on the other hand, you can use any berry you want and it would deal 120 damage. That's too much for one berry to do. Not even Natural Gift could deal that much damage by using a berry.
 

The Outrage

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Of course it can reach up to 130 base power because you can fling a dense, Iron Ball at the opponent. Of course that would hurt a lot. Fling still retains its Dark typing, too.

With Belch, on the other hand, you can use any berry you want and it would deal 120 damage. That's too much for one berry to do. Not even Natural Gift could deal that much damage by using a berry.
So your problem with it isn't based on any particular precedence on game mechanics despite you lecturing people about the similarities between Quick Attack variants and how Sucker Punch/Extreme Speed doesn't violate established rules, but is based on the fact that you can't figure out how any berry can produce equal effects?

Have you ever thought that, unlike Natural Gift which clearly draws power from the berries, that the food is simply something to help it throw up and what's doing damage is the stomach acids? You're basically criticizing a move based on how you think it plays out even though you don't know how it actually works "in-universe"

Also, if this actually happened, the move would become overpowered because it heals for all of the damage dealt instead of half. Combine it with Big Root, and you would recover 130% of the damage dealt. How would that make sense?
It's only as over-powered as the move itself. Giga-drain has a base power of 75. Let's just make the assumption that base power = damage dealt for simplicity's sake.

If a Pokemon were to use Giga Drain and do 75 damage, it would heal 37 HP.

If Draining Kiss has a base power of 40, and it heals 100% of the damage dealt, it would heal 40 HP. The return for Draining Kiss is hardly any better than Giga Drain while doing half the damage. At the end of the day, Giga Drain and its variations with 75 base power are still much better when factoring in both damage dealt and HP recovered.

Even at optimal conditions of STAB and Big Root, Giga Drain moves recover 73 HP (again, equating base power to HP) while doing over 100 base power of damage, while Drain Kiss would only recover 78 HP. That not even a 10% increase in recovery rate.


EDIT: Okay so this thing's base power is reported at 60. So it actually is pretty good and overshadows the other Drain Moves.
 
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Neptune's Disciple

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Here's the Pokébeach rumor for Mewtwo. Why would there be a form that's similar to Mew?

Because it would support the whole Nature vs Nurture debate. Mewtwo is the way he is due to nurture, so what would he have been like without the human input?

Uhh.... Mewtwo is already nurtured. How does this logic even make sense? What is Mewtwo's confirmed alternate form supposed to represent, then? Also, the Nature/Nurture debate would be more appropriate in Gen V.

A new move, Belch, is a Poison-type attack that has a base power of 120. The user must consume a held Berry to perform it.

There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

There are several examples of moves with a similar base, yet with different power or typing. Just look at the increased priority attacks - sure, they could have just kept with Quick Attack, but they've constantly added variations of it with different types, base powers, or secondary effects.

That would make sense, if those increased priority moves were related to each other in any other way. For example, Extremespeed is a stronger Quick Attack. Besides the increased power, they function the same way. Sucker Punch, on the other hand, does not. Also, Sucker Punch follows different rules than the others: if the opponent is not going to use a direct damage attack, then the move fails; if the opponent moves first, the move fails. In my opinion, 120 base damage is too much for a move like that.

Draining Kiss is a Fairy-type attack that heals the user for the same amount of damage performed. It has a base power of 60.

Although Drain Kiss was confirmed to be a move, I don't believe the rest of this rumor. Why? All of the attacks that drain hp only restore 1/2 of the damage performed (except Leech Seed, but that deals continuous damage). Why should this move be any different?

See previous point. Just because a particular type of move functioned one way in a previous gen, doesn't mean a new variation of it will function the same in a future gen. Compare Quick Attack and Suckerpunch. Prior to SP's intro, you would automatically assume that a new +priority move would have 40 base power, 100% accuracy, and little else, however SP changed that preconceived idea of a priority move rather drastically. And yes, I know there is Extremespeed, but that just furthers my point that not all variation moves function the same way.

All of the HP-draining moves that dealt damage only once (which is all except Leech Seed) only heal 1/2 of the damage dealt. Even the new move Parabolic Charge follows this rule. Your example doesn't make sense at all and it doesn't match this context. Also, if this actually happened, the move would become overpowered because it heals for all of the damage dealt instead of half. Combine it with Big Root, and you would recover 130% of the damage dealt. How would that make sense?

My point was that just because a particular type of move functions one way in one generation, does not mean that a new variation of the move will function the exact same way in the next. The fact that you have highlighted the differences between SP and Quick Attack just further supports my point - move variations will not always be the same.

If Draining Kiss does happen to heal 100% of the damage inflicted, I would think it would have horrible distribution, much like other moves with great side-effects. To me, Draining Kiss is to Recover what Dragon Tail is to Roar. They'll find a way to balance it.

I'm not even going to bother touching on the Mewtwo thing.

There's already a move called Natural Gift, so I don't understand the point of this move. Also, the base damage seems to be too high for a move like this.

It's the equivalent of Fling with more restrictions on what can be held. I don't see how that's too high a base damage given that it's likely going to be a single use and we have Fling that can reach up to 130 base power. Perhaps in your opinion its too high, but there's really no precedence to say that given that both Natural Gift and Fling are very different in how they function in terms of damage and effect.

Of course it can reach up to 130 base power because you can fling a dense, Iron Ball at the opponent. Of course that would hurt a lot. Fling still retains its Dark typing, too.

With Belch, on the other hand, you can use any berry you want and it would deal 120 damage. That's too much for one berry to do. Not even Natural Gift could deal that much damage by using a berry.

It's a move that you can use once, that will consume the berry and stop you from using it for its intended use (for example, a Chesto Berry would no longer wake you up if you were put to sleep as it would have been eaten), most certainly does not sound broken. To me, it sounds like utter crap. Not only do I have to forgo an item such as Choice Band to use the move, I also lose any utility I may have had from a berry, and it's using the near-useless offensive type of Poison. No thanks.
 
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LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

@The Outrage Wouldn't you expect Belch to deal different damage for each berry used in the attack? Not all of the berries function the same way, which is my problem with the description of the move given. A Pecha berry is different from a Tamato berry. A Rowap Berry is different from a Leppa berry. It would change the stomach acid somewhat.

Regarding your example for those HP-draining moves: You can't make the mechanics of the game simple like that. The damage dealt doesn't match the base damage because it relies on the stats of the attacking and defending Pokémon and the level of the Pokémon using the move.
 

The Outrage

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@The Outrage Wouldn't you expect Belch to deal different damage for each berry used in the attack? Not all of the berries function the same way, which is my problem with the description of the move given. A Pecha berry is different from a Tamato berry. A Rowap Berry is different from a Leppa berry. It would change the stomach acid somewhat.
Pretty sure Natural Gift works based on the concept that we're using nature's elemental power, and that's why it's different. Why doesn't Fling result in different powers when you throw berries? Because you're simply throwing them.

Regarding your example for those HP-draining moves: You can't make the mechanics of the game simple like that. The damage dealt doesn't match the base damage because it relies on the stats of the attacking and defending Pokémon and the level of the Pokémon using the move.

The reason I simplified the mechanics was for comparison purposes. Obviously if you compare a Tackle from a level 1 Rattata compared to a Tackle from a level 100 Tauros, the Tauros would do damage. However, that's not really informative other than telling you a level 100 Pokemon is more powerful. When you're trying to compare something, you equate everything else. For instance, is the ration 2a:3b actually bigger in proportion to 20a:35b or is the proportion the same? To figure that out, you need to equate it on some level, that would be to multiply 2a in the first ratio by 10 so you get 20a:30b and you realize that the first ratio has more a's in proportion to b. The same thing for these stats. There's no point in comparing a Roserade using Giga Drain on a Charmander to a Gardevoir using Drain Kiss on Dragonite because the variables are too different. What you want is the same Pokemon using both moves on the same Pokemon to make a meaningful comparison.

I could have gone through all the calculations, using a mock Pokemon who does not have STAB on either theoretical move and has 100 base SAtk on a Pokemon with 100 base SDef. But then what's the point? We all know it's stats, its STAB, and the opponent's stats will remain constant throughout the comparison, so the only variable that's different is the base power.

But sure, let's do a calculation. Mew vs. Mew level 100 0 IV's, 0 EV's on Smogon's calculator

Giga Drain:
16.1% - 19.1%*
55 - 65 (recovery 27 - 32)

Drain Kiss
12.9% - 15.2%*
44 - 52

Drain Kiss (when I assumed 40 base power)
8.5% - 10.3%
29 - 35 (recovery 29 -35)

*Note: had to use Crush Claw for Giga Drain since Smogon was using the old base 60 power rather than the updated 75, and used Aerial Ace as a place holder for Drain Kiss since it had equivalent base power, and Fake Out was used for the base 40 substitute

So based on my original calculations, there was only a 1.0667x increase, and based on these numbers, there's also only a 1.074 to 1.09x increase in HP recovery. So yes, it was greater than the estimate because of other nuances in the damage calculation, but again, the increase in recovery rate is below 10% when comparing the effectiveness of the move directly. That's hardly an advantage if Drain Kiss had a base power of 40, doing nearly half the damage of Giga Drain.

Yes, obviously a level 100 Gardevoir's Drain Kiss is going to recover more than a level 50 Roserade's Giga Drain. But then, a level 100 Roserade will recover more than a level 50 Gardevoir. All else equal, Giga Drain *was* better in my original calculation.

But I digress, Drain Kiss, if it's power is at 60 is much better than Giga Drain as it recovers 60% more HP (52/27 = ~1.6) more compared to Giga Drain with only a 20% (60/75 = 0.8, hence 20% reduction in power) reduction in damage by comparison when all else is held equal.

With that said, I find that perfectly believable. It's better this way as Game Freak isn't making a completely useless move. I mean, let's analyze Frost Breath. It's a base 40 power move, but with a guaranteed Critical Hit, making it effectively a base 80 move. That sounds great if it wasn't for the fact that it only has 90% accuracy and Ice beam trumps it by 15 points with better accuracy and nearly every Pokemon that learns Frost Breath learns Ice beam. It's a useless move with a cool concept behind it.
 
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