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Rumour thread (SPOILERS - ALLEGED LEAKS)

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LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

We don't know the accuracy of Drain Kiss, though. If I were to guess, it would be 100% like the other HP-draining moves

Wouldn't you expect Belch to deal different damage for each berry used in the attack? Not all of the berries function the same way, which is my problem with the description of the move given. A Pecha berry is different from a Tamato berry. A Rowap Berry is different from a Leppa berry. It would change the stomach acid somewhat.

Pretty sure Natural Gift works based on the concept that we're using nature's elemental power, and that's why it's different. Why doesn't Fling result in different powers when you throw berries? Because you're simply throwing them.

I meant that if you ate a different berry, wouldn't it change the belch because of how the berry might affect the stomach acids? I don't know how much better to explain it.
 

SquirtleMan493

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

With that said, I find that perfectly believable. It's better this way as Game Freak isn't making a completely useless move. I mean, let's analyze Frost Breath. It's a base 40 power move, but with a guaranteed Critical Hit, making it effectively a base 80 move. That sounds great if it wasn't for the fact that it only has 90% accuracy and Ice beam trumps it by 15 points with better accuracy and nearly every Pokemon that learns Frost Breath learns Ice beam. It's a useless move with a cool concept behind it.

To be fair the fact the game considers Frost Breath as a "critical hit" also is beneficial in that it ignores defense boosts on the opponents end (i.e. Amnesia), but I'm just playing devil's advocate.

I personally feel like that even with Drain Kiss being at 60 BP with full HP recovery relative to damage isn't really overkill. Considering it's distribution among Pokémon might not be that vast and it'll probably be mostly Fairy types that get it. I consider in the way that Grass types gave rise to the draining moves (Giga Drain, Mega Drain, etc.), Fairy could be giving rise to a new type of draining move. OR, could have easily been a typo on the leak's part. No reason that their information has to be 100% accurate. For all we know it draining HP and get all the damage dealt back as health could have been a mistake on their part. Typos and what not.
 

Neptune's Disciple

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

This is a world where a pig has dressed up in Mexican wrestling garb and breathes fire. I don't think they're necessarily too worried about the nuances in stomach acid after eating either a strawberry or a raspberry. If you're going to have a poison-type burp in your face, it's going to be pretty foul unless they've just downed a bottle of rose extract. Even then it will probably still knock you out.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

If the description (Drain Kiss) was a typo, I would believe that it was deliberately placed. If it wasn't, it would be a lie.

@Neptune's Disciple There's Gunk Shot which is the strongest Poison type move currently with 120 base damage. How will Belch be different? Will it have 100% accuracy instead of the 70% accuracy that Gunk Shot has? There's the moves Stockpile and Spit Up with 100, 200, and 300 base power for each subsequent Stockpile.
 

Mitchman

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Yeah belch would likely be a one shot move in battle due to one held item so 100% is kind of a given. Makes me wonder if pokemon with recycle get the move, thus resulting in low PP.
 

NoirGrimoir

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Gunk shot is physical, Belch might be special. Either way, its not like poison as a type is over powered. Belch could be intended to help poison types be more prominent/useful in competition.
 

Mitchman

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Gunk shot is physical, Belch might be special. Either way, its not like poison as a type is over powered. Belch could be intended to help poison types be more prominent/useful in competition.

Especially if they're the counter type to the newly added dragonslayers. Poison gonna gain a major boost in the metagame this gen, moves like belch are needed.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

The only Poison-type Pokémon that can learn Recycle are Trubbish and Garbodor.
 

Mitchman

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

The only Poison-type Pokémon that can learn Recycle are Trubbish and Garbodor.

Exactly my point. I don't see them not getting belch, which would result in low PP to balance its use.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

The only Poison-type Pokémon that can learn Recycle are Trubbish and Garbodor.

Exactly my point. I don't see them not getting belch, which would result in low PP to balance its use.

This also means that the move is useless for the other Poison-type Pokémon. Also, moves like this would have high PP.
 

Neptune's Disciple

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Didn't I say it would be crap...? If I opt for a poison move, it's much more likely to be sludge bomb. I guess we'll see what new toys we have in a couple of months.
 

Mitchman

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Huh? a 120 point move would not have a high pp count. None of em do, they all float around 5–10 pp.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Except Fling, which has a 10-16 PP count and can reach 130 Damage with an Iron Ball. Recycle works with Fling, too. So, a move like Belch would likely have 10-16 PP.
 
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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

I thought it was confirmed that Belch worked not by consuming a berry, but after a berry was consumed? So like if your 'mon hits low HP and consumes its Sitrus berry for healing, you can use Belch on the next turn. Or was that just speculation?
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

I don't think that this was confirmed (Belch's description, I mean).
 

Stratelier

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

So your problem with it isn't based on any particular precedence on game mechanics despite you lecturing people about the similarities between Quick Attack variants and how Sucker Punch/Extreme Speed doesn't violate established rules, but is based on the fact that you can't figure out how any berry can produce equal effects?
Stop comparing Quick Attack to Sucker Punch and ExtremeSpeed. Now.

Sure, Sucker Punch is really powerful, but as mentioned it fails if the opponent does a non-damaging attack. ExtremeSpeed is also powerful, and it even beats Sucker Punch (higher priority). But they only have 5 PP. Even in competitive battles a 5 PP move is a dangerous thing to allocate a move slot on knowing that a Pressure opponent can delay it out of you with Protect, anyone else can Spite it once and it's over.

If you want to mathematically evaluate the utility of a move over the long term, multiply base power * accuracy AND PP.

And remember that most moves are balanced for single player mode.

If Draining Kiss has a base power of 40, and it heals 100% of the damage dealt, it would heal 40 HP. The return for Draining Kiss is hardly any better than Giga Drain while doing half the damage. At the end of the day, Giga Drain and its variations with 75 base power are still much better when factoring in both damage dealt and HP recovered.

As long as we're generalizing base power with damage dealt, you may as well count the healing factor as additional base power. If the move does 60 damage to him and restores 30 of it to me, I've just gained 90 HP over my opponent, just the same as if I did a move that did 90 damage outright. The only difference is that half of the damage is in healing.

E.g. if I'm fighting Clay's Excadrill and I have a choice between Mega Drain (40BP + half healing) and Magical Leaf (60BP), which one do I want to use? Say my Grass-type is a bit worn down and one more hit could finish me. Magical Leaf can probably one-shot him, while Mega Drain can surely two-shot him. Which one should I use and why?

So if Fairy Kiss has a base power 60 and full healing, it may as well be 120 base power outright. What is there to keep it balanced compared to other moves? Lower accuracy? 5 PP?

To be fair ... Frost Breath as a "critical hit" also is beneficial in that it ignores defense boosts on the opponents end (i.e. Amnesia)
Totally true. Did the opponent just use Amnesia? Ha ha hah, Frost Breath doesn't care, now it's comparable to Hyper Beam.
 
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Mitchman

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Except Fling, which has a 10-16 PP count and can reach 130 Damage with an Iron Ball. Recycle works with Fling, too. So, a move like Belch would likely have 10-16 PP.

That would be if and only if the base power expands depending on the berry. If its a flat 120 without variation its not going higher than 10.
 

Stratelier

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Recycle is a good point -- without it, Belch vs. Iron Ball Fling is barely a difference because either one will only get used once per battle, making them of equally low use in competitive play -- despite items being restored after every battle, you're not exactly going to Belch an entire team off the field.

In single player, though, the fact that berries are (generally) more readily obtained than Iron Balls makes Belch superior to Natural Gift (except for typing) and superior to Fling.
 

LimitCrown

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

I still don't see how each berry would cause the exact same effect.
 

Mitchman

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Re: Rumour Discussion and Speculation

Cause unless they bring back flavors or a new berry ordering system, I just don't see how the games would handle calculating and varying the move power for each and every berry.
 
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